91 replies to this topic

[Pintrepid]

FS version should be coming in a couple days. I wanted to let this out for a couple days first, catch & fix any bugs if there is any, then I'll get the FS together.

The physics are WICKED! Gameplay is FAST! Several drains right between the flippers at mach speeds! Gonna have to play it awhile to get used to that. But I LIKE it that way. It's like JPs Flash and Mata Hari with that hyperdriven hyperball!

I thought people would think the gameplay is too slow. I actually don't want a "hyperdriven hyperball" on this table. I'm only using a 4.5 slope, & some of the weakest flipper settings you will find in all of VP. I just played the table in real life a few days ago. I wanted to get this across because while the table isn't super fast, it still has a good pace to it especially with many of the game's shots being so far down on the PF (which can make things feel like they are happening maybe faster than they are). So I'm curious as to how or why the table comes across this way (super fast) to you.
Anybody else get this impression? If so, please let me know. My brain is likely a little burned out on this table, & so some other perspectives could be helpful.

I do know that the outlanes are & should be fast though. They are almost as tough on my real EBD too, similar setup. When you have open outlanes like that with only a steady metal wire separating lanes... that ball will often rocket to the drain.

It'a possible I may have slightly exaggerated my comments about the speed a bit. Such a nice table, I was happy to finally be playing it!

Speed in a VP can be a somewhat subjective thing, I think. Please allow me to recomment:

It's not as fast as JPs Flash ... but certainly much faster than, say, Scapino's VP8 Mata Hari. Not sure that helps. Maybe this ... I think it is slightly faster than the actual arcade table, as best I can recall. But I wouldn't change the physics. I think they're just fine the way they are.

That being said, popular opinion may disagree with me. The consensus may say that it's a little too fast. The ball tends to drain quickly, especially through the outlanes, as some have observed. But I think it was a fast drainer IRL; I do remember getting frustrated with the table from time to time.

I'd suggest waiting to see how the FS version plays before adjusting the physics. I think there might be a substantial difference playing the table FS.

-PeterMac

[Bob5453]

Table looks fantastic. I played 5 games, I didn't really get anywhere, not one ball seemed to flow like I want a ball to flow, it just seemed boring, maybe I have been playing too much ps3. I really haven't played VP for a couple of months. I don't want to criticize the settings as I know I can adjust then to whatever I want, it was just strange that I seemed to get nowhere and I think I know how to play VP. Bumpers and slings did seem a little strong, but then I thought the table was boring, so making them weaker would seem like it would become even more boring. I hate using the word boring as it seems rough and I like the layout, I just think the total effect of all the individual settings makes the table boring for me. Anyway, I just thought about not posting this comment as I don't want to diminish the job you did on the table as it is an excellent VP recreation. I also don't play real tables, haven't played them for years, but if this was a real table and it played this way, it would be boring also.

Table looks great on 16x9 monitor with just decreasing xScale.

Below is by no means criticism, they are just suggestions.

Credits never displayed for me, reel is always blank. I used your nvram file. Press F6, check box that says "Display Credits" and maybe look over all settings in there.

Also notice on 16x9 that texboxes are cut off, you really want to avoid all text boxes, you can do this by just using reels. I know how to adjust the text size, but not everyone does and reels will stretch at different resolutions, so no display problems. Just one of the things that differs with screen resolutions.

Nudge TILTS ball on first nudge, I changed script line 67 to vpmNudge.Sensitivity = 3 where it was on 9 as released, I can now at least nudge once.

[rob046]

Tables play the same in FS, any differences are just tricks of the eye. Yes this is a fast drainer, but yes it should be that way. Those metal outlane separators give almost no bounce, & so the ball is as good as gone at that point. Not sure if Mata Hari is a fair comparison because those always play slow. MH is basically an EM table, & plays like it is. Mystic came out 2 or 3 years later when games were designed for a little more speed. So I don't want gameplay as slow as Kurt's MH, but also this table makes for a tough comparison because it is VP8 which had the floaty ball.
I get what you are saying though. To me it seems in many ways the game is paced about right, but in other ways it seems little too fast, maybe.

[rob046]

Table looks fantastic. I played 5 games, I didn't really get anywhere, not one ball seemed to flow like I want a ball to flow, it just seemed boring, maybe I have been playing too much ps3. I really haven't played VP for a couple of months. I don't want to criticize the settings as I know I can adjust then to whatever I want, it was just strange that I seemed to get nowhere and I think I know how to play VP. Bumpers and slings did seem a little strong, but then I thought the table was boring, so making them weaker would seem like it would become even more boring. I hate using the word boring as it seems rough and I like the layout, I just think the total effect of all the individual settings makes the table boring for me. Anyway, I just thought about not posting this comment as I don't want to diminish the job you did on the table as it is an excellent VP recreation. I also don't play real tables, haven't played them for years, but if this was a real table and it played this way, it would be boring also.

Table looks great on 16x9 monitor with just decreasing xScale.

Below is by no means criticism, they are just suggestions.

Credits never displayed for me, reel is always blank. I used your nvram file. Press F6, check box that says "Display Credits" and maybe look over all settings in there.

Also notice on 16x9 that texboxes are cut off, you really want to avoid all text boxes, you can do this by just using reels. I know how to adjust the text size, but not everyone does and reels will stretch at different resolutions, so no display problems. Just one of the things that differs with screen resolutions.

Nudge TILTS ball on first nudge, I changed script line 67 to vpmNudge.Sensitivity = 3 where it was on 9 as released, I can now at least nudge once.

Yes I'm fixing the above things. I mentioned the NVRAM screw up & am looking into that. I just loaded the table up on a different computer, using the NVRAM, & I did get the credits enabled & all but the 1 setting are where I wanted them to be. Make extra sure you copied over my nvram & let me know if you still have the problem. Anybody else please check this as well & let me know. Will maybe do EMReels instead of text. I wanted to do that anyhow but simply forgot (burned out). It only takes a minute tho. Fixing Nudge too. This is my first from scratch table in MANY years now, so I expected some mistakes like these. As you know, so many details go into doing tables like this & it can be hard to nail them all in the 1st try.

I appreciate the comments, honestly. I know you aren't knocking my effort here. & I know this table isn't for everybody. It is different, unique. & that means that some might not take to it or see the charm in it like I do. Or, maybe after the next update you'll find it plays a little more to your liking or it will start growing on you. Hard to say.
There is more detail to this game than meets the eye. You got a game within the game going on. You don't blindly hit drop targets, you need to think as you play to see which ones you need to hit. There is even a little strategy going on. Also I'm a fan of drop banks & captive balls, so combine that with the art, colors, & sounds... that is why I take to this game so much. & I love a challenging game because it can be pretty easy to master VP. I really wanted this to be at least as tough as in real life.
I say try the game after the update, then if you still can't get into it then it might not be for you.

Never be afraid to post comments like this though, at least to me. As long as its obvious that comments like this come from an honest & well intentioned place, then its all good. I mean, this really isn't even "my" game. I just recreated it here. So of course any issues you might need to take up with the now old guys at Bally!

[rob046]

Try this nvram. It has the extra ball mode enabled. Be sure it overwrites the old one. I'll be including this in the update assuming it is good. I put the game on my laptop today with this same nvram & all the settings transferred as they should have.

Attached Files

•  mysticb.nv   302bytes   21 downloads

[ZERO99]

One thing I felt really helped the over all feel on this table was changing the angle of the table from 4.5 to 5.5-6. playing this reminded me of the Twilight Zone I play in real life at a bar down the street and has similar problems as this virtual table. The table angle is hardly there making the ball feel very light and bounce quite a bit more then normal. With the right slope on the table the out lanes are a little more forgiving in just the right way. The only problem is this has speed up the game a little more then what is already there and I am not knowledgeable enough in the ways of VP9 to slow down the ball. As for the tilt setting I felt like 5 was a good number it aloud for one good nudge but you have to wait a tiny bit before another nudge can be applied or else tilt. So two nudges one after another will tilt the machine, but with a pause in between you can get another in if ur patient and time it right.

Edited by ZERO99, 20 August 2012 - 01:36 AM.

[rob046]

One thing I felt really helped the over all feel on this table was changing the angle of the table from 4.5 to 5.5-6. playing this reminded me of the Twilight Zone I play in real life at a bar down the street and has similar problems as this virtual table. The table angle is hardly there making the ball feel very light and bounce quite a bit more then normal. With the right slope on the table the out lanes are a little more forgiving in just the right way. The only problem is this has speed up the game a little more then what is already there and I am not knowledgeable enough in the ways of VP9 to slow down the ball. As for the tilt setting I felt like 5 was a good number it aloud for one good nudge but you have to wait a tiny bit before another nudge can be applied or else tilt. So two nudges one after another will tilt the machine, but with a pause in between you can get another in if ur patient and time it right.

The nudge will be fixed in the update, though of course you guys can all set the sensitivity where you want it, but yes I do also recommend setting nudge on this & pretty much all tables to TILT if you nudge consecutively (like twice in a second). Apparently, the setting can vary from between systems/manufacturers, for sensitivity.

Anyhow, so you increased the slope, but you want to slow the ball down? More slope does = faster ball. So I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to accomplish here. Also I'm not sure what you mean by the TZ comments or what you are trying to say there. Are you saying this should play more like the TZ near your house?

I just played both Mystic & TZ on Sunday. I can safely say that they play quite differently from each other. Just 2 totally different tables from 2 different era's. But do feel free to tweak as you want. Though if you do that, you might not be getting as much of a real life experience, if you care about that. Not everybody does. That is what I aim for though. & it is impossible to make a table that perfectly suits everybody's preferences, & so for me just shooting for realistic is good enough, then people to decide if they like it. But as you see in this thread, some think it might play too fast. You say it might be too slow. While you may like this table better if it plays like TZ, that is fine but a lot more people would prefer that it didn't, I'm sure. This table wasn't designed for that kind of speed.

I would recommend checking out this update. It might not play any faster. But it might have a better feel to it. If that still doesn't do it for you, then do whatever works for you. Hopefully the update can be out in the next few hours.

[ZERO99]

One thing I felt really helped the over all feel on this table was changing the angle of the table from 4.5 to 5.5-6. playing this reminded me of the Twilight Zone I play in real life at a bar down the street and has similar problems as this virtual table. The table angle is hardly there making the ball feel very light and bounce quite a bit more then normal. With the right slope on the table the out lanes are a little more forgiving in just the right way. The only problem is this has speed up the game a little more then what is already there and I am not knowledgeable enough in the ways of VP9 to slow down the ball. As for the tilt setting I felt like 5 was a good number it aloud for one good nudge but you have to wait a tiny bit before another nudge can be applied or else tilt. So two nudges one after another will tilt the machine, but with a pause in between you can get another in if ur patient and time it right.

The nudge will be fixed in the update, though of course you guys can all set the sensitivity where you want it, but yes I do also recommend setting nudge on this & pretty much all tables to TILT if you nudge consecutively (like twice in a second). Apparently, the setting can vary from between systems/manufacturers, for sensitivity.

Anyhow, so you increased the slope, but you want to slow the ball down? More slope does = faster ball. So I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to accomplish here. Also I'm not sure what you mean by the TZ comments or what you are trying to say there. Are you saying this should play more like the TZ near your house?

I just played both Mystic & TZ on Sunday. I can safely say that they play quite differently from each other. Just 2 totally different tables from 2 different era's. But do feel free to tweak as you want. Though if you do that, you might not be getting as much of a real life experience, if you care about that. Not everybody does. That is what I aim for though. & it is impossible to make a table that perfectly suits everybody's preferences, & so for me just shooting for realistic is good enough, then people to decide if they like it. But as you see in this thread, some think it might play too fast. You say it might be too slow. While you may like this table better if it plays like TZ, that is fine but a lot more people would prefer that it didn't, I'm sure. This table wasn't designed for that kind of speed.

I would recommend checking out this update. It might not play any faster. But it might have a better feel to it. If that still doesn't do it for you, then do whatever works for you. Hopefully the update can be out in the next few hours.

What I was trying to say with the TZ comment is that the actual slope of the table on your machine made the ball feel very similar to a TZ machine I have played in real life that has a very small amount of slope as well. I think the normal or default amount of slope or angle for any pinball machine play field is around 6 degrees or 6.5 but i am not 100% sure so please correct me if I am wrong . This angle of the play field on a pinball machine seems to give it the magic amount of down force on the ball to keep in play just so when bouncing around near the out/in lanes. I have also sensed that this degree setting is also what gives the ball just enough to be trappable under the right circumstances without the ball bouncing around like crazy.

Edited by ZERO99, 20 August 2012 - 02:41 AM.

[rob046]

What I was trying to say with the TZ comment is that the actual slope of the table on your machine made the ball feel very similar to a TZ machine I have played in real life that has a very small amount of slope as well. I think the normal or default amount of slope or angle for any pinball machine play field is around 6 degrees or 6.5 but i am not 100% sure so please correct me if I am wrong . This angle of the play field on a pinball machine seems to give it the magic amount of down force on the ball to keep in play just so when bouncing around near the out/in lanes. I have also sensed that this degree setting is also what gives the ball just enough to be trappable under the right circumstances without the ball bouncing around like crazy.

Ah! Really? Maybe that is a slow TZ then? You should see my pinball machines. One of them is from the same era as TZ, a little newer, Judge Dredd. Another is EBD, from Mystic's era. EBD is set probably at least a degree lower. JD is maybe at 6.5 or more, while EBD is likely 5.5 or less. Either way, definitely a difference. & this seems to be about right as I got to play dozens & dozens of games this weekend from both era's, & this seems to be how things usually are. But again, try this update I'm about to put out. It won't be faster, but you might find it a little more forgiving & have a better feel to it.

But what you are talking about... Yeah, some operators or amusements guys unfortunately don't set up games that well. Or maybe even the slope is OK, but the leveling is off? Or the PF hasn't been polished? What I will say with TZ is that since it is a widebody game, it can SEEM as if the ball travels a little slower at times just because there is more open space in some areas for the ball to lose more momentum than it would on a standard table. Widebodies in general can give off that feel. Though my JD does play awfully fast for a widebody, I suppose it might still feel a tad slower than my BK2K which is a really fast game & of course no wide body.

For EM's & really old SS tables (like Mata Hari), I'd say the common or best slope for those is around 5 degrees. Then tables slightly newer like this one or my EBD, maybe 5.5. Then Maybe 6 for tables from the late 80's early 90's, then 6.5 to 7 for all the newer pins.
This is what I've found from over the years & it seems to be the case. But that isn't to say that other ppl don't have different preferences. Some people like to take a pin like Firepower & give it a 7 slope, while others might take a TZ & not even give it 6. I always just try to get games to play as they were meant to when they were designed & left the factory, & so I'll stick with the common slopes. Even if outlanes, trapping, or whatever might be easier if I change them, I still generally stick with recommended slopes, give or take a half degree.

Edited by rob046, 20 August 2012 - 03:29 AM.

[maceman]

WHat a beautiful looking table! Congrats!
Looking forward to testing the FS!!

Maceman

[Bob5453]

I agree with zero99, I like a little more slope. I actually changed just about all editor settings, no object changes and the table feels much better to me now. The guys in the chatroom love the settings on your released version, The Monk plays a lot of real pinball and he likes your settings and table a lot, so my taste is warped by years of VP. I just wanted you to know they like it as it is.

Edited by Bob5453, 20 August 2012 - 03:33 AM.

[rob046]

Nice one rob.
Glad to see you building tables. I like your physucs.
You gonna take a stab at jd sometime? I remember talking with you about that a while back

Thanks, like I just said I just made a couple little physics tweaks so it should be even better. Though I do want to be careful not to over-tweak or over think things, so let me know if this 1.1 update isn't even better for you.

Yes, speaking of JD. When I said I wanted to start that, that was way back when bmiki75 came along & also said he was doing it. & since JD might of been above my head at the time (or even now), I figured I'd pass since he was doing it. However, I wouldn't mind taking his version & modding it to be like my real table, & fixing some things. I had actually wanted to, but I can't even get most lamps to work on his JD. Not sure why. Might be cuz he built it for FS & so the desktop version is screwy? I know on your CFTBL there was a little dropwall issue that was there in FS but not in desktop, so I know things can be different between versions.

Currently I'm still not sure I'd want to take on a much more complex modern pin like that by myself, from scratch. But I'd be willing to do an in-depth mod or co-authoring, at least until I can get better with some of those more complex things on those tables.
Obviously, having a PF scan of JD, & me having the table in great shape, all the resources are there to make it pretty awesome. & maybe, just maybe, get it to play very much like the real thing. JD is one of those tables I'd love to see super well done in VP so that ppl can see what I see in the table. It is really both a fun & very challenging table. A lot to do & accomplish on it.
But yeah now that I'm thinking of it, I might take another stab as seeing why bmiki75's lamps aren't working for me so that I can finally give it a proper play.

[rob046]

I agree with zero99, I like a little more slope. I actually changed just about all editor settings, no object changes and the table feels much better to me now. The guys in the chatroom love the settings on your released version, The Monk plays a lot of real pinball and he likes your settings and table a lot, so my taste is warped by years of VP. I just wanted you to know they like it as it is.

Thanks, & I do understand. I mean, you're talking to somebody who constantly tweaks every table he plays, even my own! I am releasing this update anyhow & I'll give some notes on the few little things changes. Again, I hope those guys think it is a small step forward. I'm pretty confident that it is. In fact, I really don't think I can possibly tweak the table any better at this point. I'm glad everybody here gives feedback because that might be what it took to get the final polish on it. v1.1 is done, just writing up the changes then will upload.
The only thing when you get into changing the slope is that at the very least you may want to increase flipper strength/speed a bit. Probably just adjust speed on this table, if you need to.

[pinuck]

First off, table looks great, nice work.

I had a quick game or two, and it was certainly very drainy - esp. on the outlanes. Maybe that's accurate, I've never played it IRL.

What struck me about it was how fast it was laterally - balls would hit the triangle above the slings on the far right and bounce all the way across the table and into the opposite outlane. And that happened a lot.
I would've swore you had jimmyfingers BUMPR mod on the table with how much side to side motion there was, but it didn't look like that in the code.
I think maybe you've just got the elasticity really high on your posts and stuff?

Anyway, I don't have anything to compare it to, but that's what stood out in my mind immediately.

And yeah the nudge sensitivity obviously needs to come down. I kept lowering and lowering it when i was doing Close Encounters and I think I ended up leaving it at 0.5 before it seemed reasonable. (But my accelerometer tends to throw double hits in here and there, so maybe I need it lower than normal)

Looking forward to where you settle out with things on this table…

[rob046]

v1.1 IS UPLOADED

- Made some small but hopefully helpful physics adjustments, tweaked a few settings. Hopefully the table has a slightly more controlled & better "feel" to it. I think it does. Maybe the lightning quick drains are toned down a bit now.
- Lowered TILT sensitivity
- Fixed area where the ball got stuck for some people, by the left spinner
- Adjusted some text boxes because a couple appeared slightly cut off when in WS. If anybody still has issues with these (on the backdrop), just let me know & I'll just go ahead & use reels instead.
- Slightly adjusted plunger strength & I also slowed down the plunger pullback, & I did match the slower pullback with a slower plunger animation, so they should be synced up.
- Lowered slingshot strength a bit, & decreased bumper strength just slightly. I may go study my real pins soon to see where these should be on tables like this. I think they are pretty close now though.
- Fixed a setting in the NVRAM. Even if you grabbed v1.0, definitely use the new NVRAM because before, apparently no game mode (like Replay or Extra Ball) was enabled. I have this nvram as Extra Ball.
- Fixed the "R" Rules menu to reflect Extra Ball Mode instead of Novelty Mode.

Let me know what you guys think. Of course VP can't fully simulate the real thing perfectly, so I just try to get it as close as I can with the limitations. For example, VP can't simulate the slinging action of slinging rubber (rubber without posts behind it). In real life the rubber kinda sucks the ball in for a split second, then spits it out. In VP, you don't get this, & so you can get pretty reactive rubber. Yet I still think the elasticity is about where it should be, but sometimes it will over-react, but that just is what it is for now. @Pinuck, this kinda explains some of the fast side to side motion you might get, but I do think this is toned down a bit in this version. I know this is something JimmyFingers has picked up on in the past & I think his BMPR system tries to deal with some of these things. If I become unhappy with how this table plays, I may have to go ahead & add that system or something like it. This table does use his flipper tap routine though.

Edited by rob046, 20 August 2012 - 04:59 AM.

[DogFart]

Hi rob046.

Left Spinner Have a Little BUG Twin Spinners

the front one behind another

Edited by DogFart, 20 August 2012 - 05:09 AM.

[rob046]

Left Spinner Have a Little BUG Twin Spinners

the front one behind another

Ugh. Cant believe I did that. Will fix in a minute or just delete the spinner NOT named sw5

[pinuck]

@Pinuck, this kinda explains some of the fast side to side motion you might get

I think it's the elasticity settings. And i'm not necessarily saying they are wrong or even contrary to what you intended, I'm just saying you've got stuff cranked much higher than is traditional, and that's why I think I was seeing such cross-table bounces.

Compare these settings:

[rob046]

v1.1.1 is up, I deleted the dual spinner. Sorry! Nobody has to re-download v1.1 if they don't want to (it was only up for like an hour or so anyhow), but you will need to delete spinner sw1.

@Pinuck, this kinda explains some of the fast side to side motion you might get

I think it's the elasticity settings. And i'm not necessarily saying they are wrong or even contrary to what you intended, I'm just saying you've got stuff cranked much higher than is traditional, and that's why I think I was seeing such cross-table bounces.

Compare these settings:

I am aware of how other authors do things, & we are all a bit different I think. I have spent quite a bit of time to get the settings that I do. Years actually, as I was messing with this sort of stuff in the VP6 days, I've always been into the physics side of things. At one time, it was pretty common for tables to have just .3 elasticity on rubbers (not much).

Part of why I like doing a table like this is that I do get to share my preferences with stuff like this, & this isn't the 1st time I've worked on a table using settings like this. My view of how these things should play is a little different, I suppose, but you are right that doesn't make it wrong or right. Believe it or not, there was a time when some ppl thought that even .5 elasticity was too high in VP6, & that was maybe because they just weren't used to it.

I'm always tweaking with this stuff, nothing is set in stone with settings for me. Like I'd probably not go as low as .55 for any rubber, like you see on those other tables.
I know from my real pins that when I slap on a new white rubber set that things can definitely get every bit as bouncy as you see here (minus VP's imperfections). In some areas I might say there still isn't enough bounce. Yeah VP rubber is just a little different from real life, it can be hard to explain but if you go play a pin I'm sure you know what I mean. So I just do what I can with what I have to work with. & I really like any physics discussions like this & I remain open to suggestions & ideas.
As confident as I am in knowing real pinball physics, it can still help to hear other perspectives.

Oh, & another interesting thing. If I were working on a table with black rubber, I'd set that lower. Black rubber has less bounce. Sometimes quite a bit less bounce than new white rubber, especially off of posts.
... & yet another thing I wanted to mention. I do create collections for the sets of rubbers. Partly just so that myself or others can later easily tweak all rubbers in just a few seconds. I do this because I know just how hard it can be to go into a completed table & try to change them all the hard way. There are sometimes a few rubbers that I'll set slightly different than the others, but in this case you can just set them all how you want, then if you got another 1 or 2 you want to tweak afterwards, that is easy enough.

Edited by rob046, 20 August 2012 - 08:54 AM.

[yukiko1701d]

Nice update!@rob046

BUT...
I checked the lamp does not arrive because there is treatment ...

Line 495:

FadeL 56, l55, l55a

There was a need to change as shown below here.

FadeL 56, l56, l56a

You're very fast updates, check it properly.
Also, please make a table to entertain.

Edited by yukiko1701d, 20 August 2012 - 07:12 AM.