118 replies to this topic

[Shooby Doo]

Speaking of Whitewater.. from a guy's camping trip we did in October...


Pin strapped to the back of my motorhome


In play! (I'm taking the photo, so I'm not pictured)

You're hardcore

[settingsons]

Can't beat nature, the sounds of the forest, the crackle of the campfire, the twinkling of stars in the black night, and the pounding sounds of a Whitewater cab....

[JAM0]

LOL, was it hard to keep the table level? I would think the legs would continue to sink into the ground especially with hard nudging

Edit, OK now I see the pieces of wood you have under the feet.

Edited by JAM0, 17 December 2011 - 12:57 PM.

[numiah]

Speaking of Whitewater.. from a guy's camping trip we did in October...


Pin strapped to the back of my motorhome


In play! (I'm taking the photo, so I'm not pictured)

[analog999]

Okay, kid is awake so I had a chance to test out the real thing - full plunge != STDM. Can only backhand from left flipper up ramp about 1/4 of the way and it is very hard to do that, usually hits the post for a flipper pass, or fairly easy to hit the left lock target. Right flipper can easily backhand the disaster drop.

But again, that's *my* machine, it's a player and has been around the block!

[Noah Fentz]

...
Noah, first off, let me say that I don't mean to offend you, your work, or any one else's. My goal here is to make the games play as closely as possible to the real thing, on my cabinet at least. My comment on "weirdness" is in reference to shooting off the flipper when the ball is moving, rather than from a catch - it seems to fire the ball further to the left from the right flipper than I would expect, but works excellent with a flipper catch. Those are my settings that I was talking about. As for your settings, it very well may be that settings need to be tweaked on each cabinet setup. I'm willing to bet that it makes a huge difference what kind of interface the buttons have to the PC. It could even be a difference between the types of button switches that are being used - ie a toggle micro or leaf switch, and for leaf switches, how far apart are the switch contacts? Etc.

I will double check (I would right now, but would wake the kid up), but I am pretty certain mine doesn't SDTM on a full plunge. If I'm wrong, I completely stand corrected. Maybe I've never had it happen because maybe I never did a *full* plunge. I'm willing to admit I could easily be wrong on stuff. I want the game to play as close to as real life, so if this is how it should work, then this is how it should be. Could also potentially be that the spring on my shooter rod is wrong if it doesn't.

So I'm curious about your experience with with your default settings, because this thread might be completely useless for anyone but myself if this is the case, and, I might stop adding to it to save confusion. Can you make a backhand up the disaster drop from a caught ball? I couldn't - the best I could do was no way out. Here again, even the coil stop being worn (in real life) _could_ make a difference on this as it would change the stop angle. I am pretty certain I can do that DD shot with my machine. I have played so many games it is hard to remember the original settings now, but I feel like I was able to backhand the left ramp with the default settings no problem. Not possible on my real game. I will double check both of these too in the morning. I will also go back to the defaults on the hyperpin and check my comments.


Other than the Gilligan comment above - has anyone else tried any of my settings on any of the tables I listed? What did you think if you did?

You didn't offend me in the least, dude! As I mentioned in the WH2O topic, I think, the flippers felt off to me, no matter what I did. Nonetheless, don't stop doing what you're doing. I was just commenting, not criticizing. I think it's great you're working on improving physics.

Yes, I could backhand Disaster Drop.

Okay, kid is awake so I had a chance to test out the real thing - full plunge != STDM. Can only backhand from left flipper up ramp about 1/4 of the way and it is very hard to do that, usually hits the post for a flipper pass, or fairly easy to hit the left lock target. Right flipper can easily backhand the disaster drop.

But again, that's *my* machine, it's a player and has been around the block!

Told ya!

On mine, I could easily backhand the left ramp and even the left loop.

[analog999]

Can't beat nature, the sounds of the forest, the crackle of the campfire, the twinkling of stars in the black night, and the pounding sounds of a Whitewater cab....

Just for you...



Sorry, my cell phone camera doesn't really pick up the twinkling of the stars, but it was a lot of fun playing in the dark of night. Best part was that we had the entire campground to ourselves, so we could make noise as late as we wanted to.

[analog999]

You didn't offend me in the least, dude! As I mentioned in the WH2O topic, I think, the flippers felt off to me, no matter what I did. Nonetheless, don't stop doing what you're doing. I was just commenting, not criticizing. I think it's great you're working on improving physics.

Yes, I could backhand Disaster Drop.

Told ya!

On mine, I could easily backhand the left ramp and even the left loop.

Noah, what did you tell me exactly? Everything I thought about how mine played was correct. The only thing I could do that I wasn't expecting was even hit the left ramp at all. Even then it didn't easily go up it, only a short distance and comes back down. Full plunge does not go SDTM (I'm assuming you know this, but for others != is "not equal to"), and I can hit DD with the right flipper. So I'm not sure what you told me - and I'm not saying this in a combative tone, I'm just trying to figure out where you and I disagree.

You're saying you could backhand the left ramp and make it all the way up on your real machine or on your settings on hyperpin? I'm not saying it couldn't happen to backhand the left ramp on another game, I suppose if the flippers were strong enough maybe it could. Either way, I bet it is still a hard shot to make. Much harder than backhanding the lock target or no way out. I don't think I can backhand the left loop in any way. But maybe you're also doing some flipper trick that I'm not trying - I am talking about from a dead stop letting the ball roll just a brief moment and flipping. Maybe there is something I can learn here if you're talking about some trick other kind of flipper trick I don't know on real pins... hmm. Like perhaps doing a flipper pass and then flipping at the ball as it's on it's way over to the other flipper?

Edited by analog999, 17 December 2011 - 04:20 PM.

[CPSNine]

...
Noah, first off, let me say that I don't mean to offend you, your work, or any one else's. My goal here is to make the games play as closely as possible to the real thing, on my cabinet at least. My comment on "weirdness" is in reference to shooting off the flipper when the ball is moving, rather than from a catch - it seems to fire the ball further to the left from the right flipper than I would expect, but works excellent with a flipper catch. Those are my settings that I was talking about. As for your settings, it very well may be that settings need to be tweaked on each cabinet setup. I'm willing to bet that it makes a huge difference what kind of interface the buttons have to the PC. It could even be a difference between the types of button switches that are being used - ie a toggle micro or leaf switch, and for leaf switches, how far apart are the switch contacts? Etc.

I will double check (I would right now, but would wake the kid up), but I am pretty certain mine doesn't SDTM on a full plunge. If I'm wrong, I completely stand corrected. Maybe I've never had it happen because maybe I never did a *full* plunge. I'm willing to admit I could easily be wrong on stuff. I want the game to play as close to as real life, so if this is how it should work, then this is how it should be. Could also potentially be that the spring on my shooter rod is wrong if it doesn't.

So I'm curious about your experience with with your default settings, because this thread might be completely useless for anyone but myself if this is the case, and, I might stop adding to it to save confusion. Can you make a backhand up the disaster drop from a caught ball? I couldn't - the best I could do was no way out. Here again, even the coil stop being worn (in real life) _could_ make a difference on this as it would change the stop angle. I am pretty certain I can do that DD shot with my machine. I have played so many games it is hard to remember the original settings now, but I feel like I was able to backhand the left ramp with the default settings no problem. Not possible on my real game. I will double check both of these too in the morning. I will also go back to the defaults on the hyperpin and check my comments.


Other than the Gilligan comment above - has anyone else tried any of my settings on any of the tables I listed? What did you think if you did?

You didn't offend me in the least, dude! As I mentioned in the WH2O topic, I think, the flippers felt off to me, no matter what I did. Nonetheless, don't stop doing what you're doing. I was just commenting, not criticizing. I think it's great you're working on improving physics.

Yes, I could backhand Disaster Drop.

Okay, kid is awake so I had a chance to test out the real thing - full plunge != STDM. Can only backhand from left flipper up ramp about 1/4 of the way and it is very hard to do that, usually hits the post for a flipper pass, or fairly easy to hit the left lock target. Right flipper can easily backhand the disaster drop.

But again, that's *my* machine, it's a player and has been around the block!

Told ya!

On mine, I could easily backhand the left ramp and even the left loop.

It is so cool to see that this thread is turning into a huge collaboration.
I think this is the way we are going to have the best playing tables.
Physics can be affected by so many things on real tables, age wear ant tear, different components in tables due to maintenance etc... the important thing is to replicate the important features of the table I guess the precise stuff has to be left to interpretation and maybe limitations due to VP.

So thank you guys for your effort to make our experience on VP as close as possible to the real thing.
Now we have beautyfull tables playing great, what could we ask for more.

[Noah Fentz]

You didn't offend me in the least, dude! As I mentioned in the WH2O topic, I think, the flippers felt off to me, no matter what I did. Nonetheless, don't stop doing what you're doing. I was just commenting, not criticizing. I think it's great you're working on improving physics.

Yes, I could backhand Disaster Drop.

Told ya!

On mine, I could easily backhand the left ramp and even the left loop.

Noah, what did you tell me exactly? Everything I thought about how mine played was correct. The only thing I could do that I wasn't expecting was even hit the left ramp at all. Even then it didn't easily go up it, only a short distance and comes back down. Full plunge does not go SDTM (I'm assuming you know this, but for others != is "not equal to"), and I can hit DD with the right flipper. So I'm not sure what you told me - and I'm not saying this in a combative tone, I'm just trying to figure out where you and I disagree.

You're saying you could backhand the left ramp and make it all the way up on your real machine or on your settings on hyperpin? I'm not saying it couldn't happen to backhand the left ramp on another game, I suppose if the flippers were strong enough maybe it could. Either way, I bet it is still a hard shot to make. Much harder than backhanding the lock target or no way out. I don't think I can backhand the left loop in any way. But maybe you're also doing some flipper trick that I'm not trying - I am talking about from a dead stop letting the ball roll just a brief moment and flipping. Maybe there is something I can learn here if you're talking about some trick other kind of flipper trick I don't know on real pins... hmm. Like perhaps doing a flipper pass and then flipping at the ball as it's on it's way over to the other flipper?

After a night of drinking, and being barely awake, I read it as '='.

As we all know, every table plays a bit different. I've had SDTM on every full plunge I can recall.

[Bob5453]

Awesome pics analog999.

They really deserve their own thread and story, I know all pinheads would enjoy seeing them.

[JAM0]

I've been following this thread and I have one question: what the heck does SDTM mean?

[Noah Fentz]

I've been following this thread and I have one question: what the heck does SDTM mean?

Straight Down the Middle.

[JAM0]

Thanks Noah, you guys had me stumped there for a while

Just tried TOTAN and I agree it feels more natural. Yes the ramp is a little more difficult but it seems like the difficulty spread across the fan of shots is more equal, if that makes sense

Thanks analog999

Edited by JAM0, 17 December 2011 - 06:59 PM.

[analog999]

Thanks Noah, you guys had me stumped there for a while

Just tried TOTAN and I agree it feels more natural. Yes the ramp is a little more difficult but it seems like the difficulty spread across the fan of shots is more equal, if that makes sense

Thanks analog999

Makes perfect sense. From what I'm finding, the 4.5 OC seems like it's pretty standard for most tables, again at least on my setup. Glad it is working better for you. Posts like this help me validate what I'm saying and I'll continue to post my results.

But again, these are my results, and people's own results may vary - it might be for some of you that the original settings are better, so keep a copy so you don't have to download it again from Noah's servers.

Edited by analog999, 17 December 2011 - 07:53 PM.

[rob046]

Thanks Noah, you guys had me stumped there for a while

Just tried TOTAN and I agree it feels more natural. Yes the ramp is a little more difficult but it seems like the difficulty spread across the fan of shots is more equal, if that makes sense

Thanks analog999

Makes perfect sense. From what I'm finding, the 4.5 OC seems like it's pretty standard for most tables, again at least on my setup. Glad it is working better for you. Posts like this help me validate what I'm saying and I'll continue to post my results.

But again, these are my results, and people's own results may vary - it might be for some of you that the original settings are better, so keep a copy so you don't have to download it again from Noah's servers.

Interesting, 4.5 OC is exactly what I think is the sweet spot for many tables as well, & this is on desktop. Similar flipper settings as well, though mine are a little lower because I'll often tone down the slope/gravity.

Another thing I notice on some tables is generous slope settings combined with a heavy gravity setting. Now I am a little rusty on my tweaking & there are still things about VP9 I'd like to learn more about. But what is the diff between gravity & slope? Aren't they the same thing?
I'd love an answer to this because I can't make sense of why authors use a generous slope then add tons more gravity. With the default being 1, I often see 1.5 or higher being used & I don't know why.

[analog999]

I'd love an answer to this because I can't make sense of why authors use a generous slope then add tons more gravity. With the default being 1, I often see 1.5 or higher being used & I don't know why.

I would think they would go hand in hand. I don't know why you would change the gravity, but if you increased it, it would only make sense to lower the slope to compensate. I think people start messing with things and they don't know exactly what things mean so then they change other numbers to compensate.

[Shooby Doo]

If I'm not mistaken, "slope" is the inclination of the table, and "gravity constant" is basically the weight of the ball. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[analog999]

If I'm not mistaken, "slope" is the inclination of the table, and "gravity constant" is basically the weight of the ball. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Sounds good to me. By the way, would anyone be interested in having me list games that I feel play very well as is? Should I list those ones for completeness? ie, JP's Cirqus Voltaire and LOTR both play very very well. Almost makes me want to sell mine and get my money back out of them...

Edited by analog999, 18 December 2011 - 12:16 AM.

[maceman]

... my understanding is that you cannot have the min/max slope the same, else the gdl(global difficulty level) is moot.

I am going to try WH2O right now to see if this works better or not

cheers,
maceman

....also, the flippers on Wh2) should be moved down exactly 4 points. Shift-Click both flippers, right-click to unlock them, then arrow down 4 times, and re-lock....then there will be smooth flipper rolling rather than a bounce....

Edited by maceman, 18 December 2011 - 02:55 AM.