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#3161 jimmyfingers

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 11:18 PM

I'll have to play a lot of pinball tonight to see if I can live with the flipper lag, because I certainly can't live with the screen tearing.  At least not tearing of the ball.  The flippers never really bothered me but the ball caught my eye every single time it ripped in two.  Every. Single. Time.

 

I was going to joke about not trying the two scenarios (cause you'll never want to go back - I wish I never saw the input lag issue / "improvement") but yours is in the opposite direction to what I've done.  It is worth noting as well that playing on a rig that has a true 120hz monitor will reduce response times as there are more frames per second and therefore input lag from extra frames is diminished.  I was generally content with the flipper / game play and was totally happy with the combination of settings for buttery smooth ball movement / game play (Aero / DWM again being key).  But once I saw the reaction time and shot angles I could make on the back hand with DWM off / disabled (mainly from a ball rolling through the inlane of the same flipper) I wanted both! :)  It's tough for me to go back now to just smooth visuals with the flipper lag that I can 100% tell does exist al beit only subjectively testable (I've created a modification of a table I was modding for VPX with the ball release in the left inlane and basically shoot dozens of shots trying to get the backhand as far back as possible / timed with the ball running through the lane and over the flipper.  Toggling these two settings / modes has been an eye opener for how much they differ.  You also have to be very careful though when evaluating as flipper / input lag and frame rate are totally related so make sure both tests are at the same FPS / monitor sync.

 

By the way, if I wasn't clear all of the Aero / Desktop Composition being left on modes for VP were while using the built-in vsync at 1 (pre-rendered frames never had a bearing on ball stutter / tearing that I have found with this combination at least but did affect again the flipper lag and I personally saw difficulty again in flipper timing with my test table if I didn't have pre-rendered at 1).  I know Toxie suggests nVidia comtrol panel / settings being set at with pre-rendered to 1 and VP at 0 but with either 0 or 2 for VP I get delayed flipper action although actually increased FPS (if vsync was not enabled to just assess what the performance is).  I find that to make sense actually and that the gain in FPS / performance is coming at some cost to the limiting of lag and in practice actual input / flipper lag.  Part of the problem is that there is no easy way to measure it and it can feel subjective, however, I have spent more hours and days in the last month or so than I care to acknowledge flipping literally thousands of virtual pinballs in these closely controlled test scenarios and it is clear to me that it's absolutely occurring and delayed as described.

 

As a side note and a result of all this, I've been experimenting with cutting out the vpinmame callback usage for rotating the flippers from a flipper key press "keydown" as most vpm / SS tables have them scripted.  I tried this a long time ago and someone else was mentioning this a little while back but I cannot recall who at the moment, however, what initially made me stop was the extra complexity in scripting the table and some actual impasses that would need more thought or extensions to pinMAME.  This directly "wired" flipper scripting approach though surprisingly cuts about 20 ms of lag out of the flippers on a standard TV / monitor and is potentially one way to counteract the cost of using Aero, however, it has issues with then leaving the player the ability to flip the flippers still after a tilt or when the game is over.  There are some work-arounds for this and is actually how I got onto the vpmNudge.TiltObj fix in the core.vbs in the most recent update and for which I explain a bit more about a few posts back.  If the game supports a "game on" or "power on" relay, then that can be leveraged (along with the vpmNudge.Tilt) to also disable the flippers in the times that one would expect.  However, all of this work-around approach requires scripting changes to the tables though and most modern games that I have seen do not have the relay so other techniques would need to be created to cut power to the flippers when directly "wired" for quicker response for at least the game over and tilt aspects would even be more challenging if not impossible without some VPM changes or possibly sound type detection for the "tilt" sound bank.  Detecting an exclusive light that goes on when tilted as well would work but most games that have a light actually on the backglass still had the actual solenoid to utilize anyway with again the modern DMD games not having a light because they display it in the DMD in a big and funky way specific for the game.  Some games may have a combo of lights or something for a tilt detection but overall this route has difficulties.

 

Basically, the best end solution and easiest on authors would really to be able to have VP's vsync working fully (vsync =1 as does work with Aero allowed / enabled) with Desktop Composition / Aero disabled, then one could benefit from improved flipper response without a lot of difficult and potentially even impossible ways to recode the flippers within the table scripting.  Also, if we could get VP to sync totally smooth with Desktop Composition disabled, we could get a double flipper lag input boost if we still chose to the coding / scripting route (that compensation technique is not limited to either "mode").

 

See what I mean about difficult to describe everything quickly / concisely ;)


Edited by jimmyfingers, 27 October 2015 - 11:25 PM.


#3162 toxie

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 11:22 PM

i just searched the net a bit, and apparently disabling the transparency of the aero theme you use helps in reducing input lag.

maybe you guys could try that?



#3163 jimmyfingers

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 11:29 PM

I think that might be doing the same exact thing though Toxie as Disabling Desktop Composition (as when in that mode the transparencies cease and windows look like classic mode).  This would likely then bring back the same issues to VP when run with that compatibility mode set and the ball stutter with vsync=1.  I'd like to test it though still, so by "disabling the transparency of the aero theme", what actual setting change is being made? 

 

EDIT: Never mind, I should have tried google first :)  See the option for "Enable Transparency" under the usual Personalize section but using the sub-item Window Color.  http://www.ghacks.ne...y-in-windows-7/

 

It looks like it does the same as Desktop Composition visually at least to the windows but may be different in end result.  I will have to test a few things out and potentially move over the mini-cab for some of that custom table.  Thanks for the tip / hope Toxie! 

 

EDIT 2:  This is why trying to type a lot quickly has issues ;)  The demonstratable issues with VP's built-in vsync being set to 1 when Desktop Composition is disabled may require using less typical resolution or refresh rate.  1024 x 768 at 75hz is enough to demonstrate the issue usually but will work ok when allowing Aero to stay on.  I see more issues when trying 120hz and also at 1440p even at 60hz.  So, trying at 1080p and 60hz may not produce the obviously out of sync FPS numbers as I described a couple posts back but even if looking fluid will still periodically jump / stutter.


Edited by jimmyfingers, 27 October 2015 - 11:52 PM.


#3164 mpad

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 11:54 PM

Hmm yes the aero thing also came up with pinball arcade cab mod and also with United. Have to have it on.

I just got a free sync setup for my gaming rig. God this is nice. No lag no tearing no stutter and best no vsync. Wish playfield TVs would support this...

#3165 jimmyfingers

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 12:16 AM

Hmm yes the aero thing also came up with pinball arcade cab mod and also with United. Have to have it on.

I just got a free sync setup for my gaming rig. God this is nice. No lag no tearing no stutter and best no vsync. Wish playfield TVs would support this...

I've been curious about free sync and g-sync with VP.  Is your gaming rig one that you play VP on and have any feedback on?  Or are you a cab user so can't test / report?  I know at least that with only windowed full screen for VP that there seems to be some aspects with these technologies that may have some limitations or caveats.  I think g-sync had a phase where it didn't support windowed full screen but now does or something like that but I believe I read that Aero again was required for that.   



#3166 Jafjas

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 06:37 AM

Wow ok, enabling earo again is absolutely worth a try!
When playing vp I always was under the impression that I should turn it of because of eliminating stutter.
I always turned it on again because it is required for the "free camera mod" for the pinball arcade to work.
I'll try it out this evening, I just got up and I'm on my way to work (and no, that's not playing and tinkering with visual pinball full time Whahahaha).
I'll report back as soon as I get home and had a few testgames.
Nice find by the way.

Regards

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#3167 mpad

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 07:18 AM

Hmm yes the aero thing also came up with pinball arcade cab mod and also with United. Have to have it on.

I just got a free sync setup for my gaming rig. God this is nice. No lag no tearing no stutter and best no vsync. Wish playfield TVs would support this...

I've been curious about free sync and g-sync with VP.  Is your gaming rig one that you play VP on and have any feedback on?  Or are you a cab user so can't test / report?  I know at least that with only windowed full screen for VP that there seems to be some aspects with these technologies that may have some limitations or caveats.  I think g-sync had a phase where it didn't support windowed full screen but now does or something like that but I believe I read that Aero again was required for that.   

No VP on the game PC, but I could install it there. Just don't know how and what exactly to test for.

Just noticed the big difference using freesync with other games with vsync off.

#3168 Jafjas

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 07:58 AM

Hey there again!

I just tried and turned of aero on my work pc and instantly the tearing appears!
I can't check my cab at the moment but this is very promising!
Pretty good find dyopp!
As soon as I have tested the cab at home I'll report my findings but I'm very optimistic about this.
Checking the flipper lag will be important to.

Have a good day you all!

Jasper

#3169 gStAv

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 02:26 PM

I enabled Aero with disabled transparency in windows7 and used this settings below with absolutely no stutter. not even on a 4 ball multi ball in CV  :D:

Thanks for the Aero find guys! Superb!

 

VPX_settings.jpg


Edited by gStAv, 28 October 2015 - 02:30 PM.

3rs054-6.png


#3170 zany

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 03:26 PM

When changing the Night -> Day slider it also affects the lights. Not sure if this is how the lights are made in the tables i tried, or if it is an issue. The light shouldn't be affected at all.



#3171 Jafjas

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 06:41 PM

Hello,

Enabling earo and disabling transparency fixed my tearing problem! I have to set vsync to 2 and no prerendered frames to 0. Ambient occlusion gives me stutter and lag on the flippers.
Having no tearing makes the game fun again!
Great find indeed!

Jasper

#3172 jimmyfingers

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 07:04 PM

Disabling transparency isn't related to any stutter or tearing, it was supposed to potentially assist with input lag when Aero is enabled.  However, it doesn't seem to improve the input lag the same as with actually disabling Aero / Desktop Composition or switching to the Windows Classic theme which also does the same.  It seems that there may be some overlap out on the forums / posts that discuss input lag and the specific transparency option with that of the noticeable transparency loss from actually disabling or switching out of Aero itself.  The transparency option / theory also seems to be partially evolved out of work around attempts arguably wishful thinking for Windows 8/8.1 where disabling Aero / Desktop Composition is apparently a whole other kettle of fish (i.e. not the same as with Windows 7).  Out of the few posts regarding enabling / disabling transparency alone for input lag, some of those same posts further down / alter on have other users stating it did nothing to help their lag issue.  

 

Now that all still being said, from my fairly brief tests last night and today, I can't say for sure if it has any effect but have seemed to experience some shots / shooting scenarios that feel maybe a little better on my input lag test table.  It is definitely not the same as disabling Aero / DWM / Desktop Composition all together, yet it may still be providing some benefit.  I don't know if it's wishful thinking on my part (placebo effect), but it feels like it may be slightly responding better for my test scenarios but they are quite subjective and need lot's of samples / time to come to more of a conclusion.    

 

In any case, disabling transparency shouldn't hurt anything else regarding the VP experience and is worth trying to assess any input lag improvement but a working solution for actually disabling Aero / Desktop Composition altogether would still be certainly nice to have at some point as there is for sure an improvement in input lag under those conditions (just unfortunately other aspects of stutter and / or tearing).



#3173 atarian

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 07:06 PM

With regards to tearing I had the same experiences with the Aero fix for TPA cam mod and Unity3d fakefullscreen too. Like Jimmy said I wonder if it is something to do with not having true full screen that causes tearing because with Unity and TPA I can leave aero off and don't get tearing when in full screen mode (for TPA I alt-enter to enter FS mode).

#3174 mpad

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 07:23 PM

had som time today and upgraded my cab with latest drivers (nvidia) and also latest VPX beta (long time no testing).

Now I tested dozers judge dredd (v7) and papa smurf, and I get weird graphic errors like invisible ball and flipper (or almost invisible).

tried all different settings inside VPX without success.

What am I missing?

As explained I haven't testet a VPX Version for ages now... could find anything in this thread by quick search.

other VP versions run fine. I have no Nvidia profile set for VPX.

Thanks...


Edited by mpad, 28 October 2015 - 07:24 PM.


#3175 toxie

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 07:37 PM

I also had some weird issues with very latest NVIDIA drivers (358.50), simply roll back a version (355.98), that fixed it for me.



#3176 mpad

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 08:03 PM

thanks toxie, but that didn't work for me.
meanwhile I got i fixed by re-enabling the nvidia profile. I set some 8x fxaa and 16x anisotropy and all is good now.
strange. had deleted it because I wanted to test the VPX internal aa settings.
maybe if you want to look into this...just for the record I will post a pic how it looked like836555a2b7021eeaa323950fff5f0f32.jpg

Edited by mpad, 28 October 2015 - 08:05 PM.


#3177 fuzzel

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 08:18 PM

rev2290 is up:

 

- CodeViewer Preferences: Added colour choosers, corrected tab stop order.
- add ForceReflection for ball. If set the ball will be reflected on the playfield even it's on a ramp or upper playfield.
- workaround for rubber collisions pushing the ball upwards
- fix dynamic object clipping issue if playfield features a material with opacity enabled
- default table: fix ramp exit being too narrow (ball got stuck)
 

Regarding the ForceReflection setting: This is a script command for the ball. The idea is if the ball enters a wire ramp you can enable the ForceReflection option and the ball gets reflected on the playfield but depending on the rest of the table this should be switched off if the ball leaves the wire ramp. Forcing the reflection on upper playfields or plastic ramps will produce a strange unrealistic look.



#3178 dyopp21

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 08:19 PM

With regards to tearing I had the same experiences with the Aero fix for TPA cam mod and Unity3d fakefullscreen too. Like Jimmy said I wonder if it is something to do with not having true full screen that causes tearing because with Unity and TPA I can leave aero off and don't get tearing when in full screen mode (for TPA I alt-enter to enter FS mode).


So that brings us to the question: can true full screen be implemented in VPX?


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#3179 fuzzel

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 08:24 PM

We had true full screen running in VP9.9 when Mukuste did the conversion from DX7 to DX9 but it introduced some nasty side effects and we changed it to the windowed full screen because of that.



#3180 toxie

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 08:36 PM

Exactly..

 

Regarding the rubber 'fix': Please test this with the tables/setups that had troubles before (e.g. the ball crawling up rubbers) and let me know.







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