62 replies to this topic

[Noah Fentz]

Im not going to spend time reading all the related posts... but isnt it Hypocritical to complain about other people copying your work... when in fact, you are copying someone elses work?!!!

No, it's not, with permission, which we have for NON-COMMERCIAL USE.

JP didnt design any of these machines. And not only that, but most of the digital tables Ive seen are filled with errors and look horrible compared to the real machines.

Worse even, is that the original artists that made the artwork on the pinball tables, are seeing people "re-Draw" them
with their own changes thinking its better that way. Did the re-draw people ask for permission to not only redraw the art... but also to CHANGE IT?!!! Do they have the right?

No, they dont.

I've talked to nearly every artist and designer out there, and they all love what we do.

Anyone who works on replicating something that doesnt belong to them, has no rights to it, no matter what. It doesnt matter if they sell it or not. Selling them is illegal, and they know it. Should any company choose to sell them, they are illegal too. But trying to put them under, will only bring negative attention towards your own efforts of enjoying other peoples efforts.

While it sucks that you are not and can not make money with your efforts on your passion, it means little.

Any of you people are free to design and make your Own custom pinball table designs, with your own sound effects, and own music, and sell them. And if anyone copies that... you have a right to get angered, and grounds for legal action.

Otherwise, you really have nothing at all.

Enjoy your passion of recreating machines you love, or dont. The only thing that has ever changed, is your delusional entitlements.

Hardly delusional, man. HOURS, DAYS, and MONTHS go into recreations. These are an homage to the great industry we love. The sense of entitlement is FAR from delusional given all of these facts.

[JMSTECH]

I like to add what JP, Noah and others are doing is recreating the kindle into the machines/companies that out of production/business plus help draws interests back into the pinball world. It's a positive move and also good karma.

John

[hassanchop]

anyone has a right to his opinion. we can agree or not...

i think any work being original or recreation sucks when it is "stolen" or modded.
the bigger you get, the more people want what is yours and the more you will be stolen. it will always be like this.

[ynneBBenny]

I don't see an issue.
What is the difference between this and the Nanotech machine?
What is the difference between installing the tables yourself, or the machine coming with them preinstalled? ( The end result is the same, and essentially it is the machine been sold and not the tables.)
Maybe the videos were just a sample of how the machine looked once a person had installed the tables themselves (I never got to see the video)

[ta2686]

I don't see an issue.
What is the difference between this and the Nanotech machine?
What is the difference between installing the tables yourself, or the machine coming with them preinstalled? ( The end result is the same, and essentially it is the machine been sold and not the tables.)
Maybe the videos were just a sample of how the machine looked once a person had installed the tables themselves (I never got to see the video)

I believe Nanotech received permission from the authors to include their work on the Ultrapin IIRC whereas these people did not get permission. I seem to recall seeing a discussion about this (Nanotech tables) on the old VPForums.

Edited by ta2686, 25 May 2011 - 09:53 AM.

[kruge99]

I don't see an issue.
What is the difference between this and the Nanotech machine?
What is the difference between installing the tables yourself, or the machine coming with them preinstalled? ( The end result is the same, and essentially it is the machine been sold and not the tables.)
Maybe the videos were just a sample of how the machine looked once a person had installed the tables themselves (I never got to see the video)

For starters, all you have to do is look at the Nanotech website to see that they did everything above board. It looks to me that everything was licensed from the original property holders BEFORE they sold anything to the public.

BIFUCA on the other hand, allegedly decided to SELL to the public first and only when people complained and they were threatened with the possibility of a lawsuit, did BIFUCA change their manufacturing process to not include the unlicensed materials.

BIFUCA's actions represent to me, their true goal - to obtain money, at any cost, even if it means selling things that they are not entitled to sell. That is why I am upset with BIFUCA.


Best Regards,
Todd.

[TheMcD]

To me, the real fun comes in when you realize that Bifuca attempted to mask tables created by some of us as their own creations. If you just come out and admit that you nicked that stuff from others, it's not as bad as when you try to hide the fact, especially when it's done poorly.

If you have to nick stuff, make doubly sure you can't tell it's from somebody else. That includes blazingly obvious stuff like cleaning out the table info. And to think that the only thing they would have had to do was ask...

The McD

[Shooby Doo]

Business and politics suck the fun out of a hobby

[maceman]

I had a good post written up and posted, but it seems to have not taken,so Iam not going to retype it.

In brief: JP, I hope you reconsider.... I do not understand what stopping will solve? Anyone in this world with any sort of talent should expect to be mimicked at some point. I would take it as flattery!! My music has been "borrowed" many times, and you just come to expect it.

It is true they should have contacted you and worked something out, and I guess that is still possible... but I don't understand whatstopping is going to solve? They canstill copy any of your other tables, so making more will not help or hinder..... There are 2 seperate things going on here, and unrelated.

I would continue doing what you enjoy doing, and work the other stuff out as you go along... but PLEASE do not quit!!!!


Maceman

[numiah]

*sigh*

[xzotic]

Yes this is wrong

There's not much anyone can really do about.

JP really love your work and appreciate everything you do, but staging a protest that attempts to get the whole community fired up is plain dumb. You are just drawing more attention to these idiots.

Build a bridge and get over it people.

Energy and time can be spent creating tables not fueling a storm in a teacup.

Edited by xzotic, 26 May 2011 - 05:47 AM.

[kungfusteve]

Doubtful David Foleys Liceneses are actually Legally Valid.

He claimed they were valid on Ultracade, and it turns out most of them were not valid.
Many companies were contacted by individuals asking if Foley got approval... and they didnt even know who he was.
Big name Japanese game companies, reported back that no such permission was granted.

All the while, he was trying to take ownership of "Mame". The name itself... so he could defend his so called licenses legally.

Once that all went down, it wasnt long before he was kicked out or left the Ultracade company. And soon after that, I believe he was selling Ultracade upgrade kits Illegally... and since he was no longer part of the company, and was making profit on a product that the still active company was supposed to be getting action on.... I believe the company is suing him, as well as possible jail time.

Do your homework and start asking around... and Id pretty much bet money that none of the tables were licensed officially.

Nobody is making money on Virtual Pins except hardware people, and the scammers.
Just like nobody is going to make money using Mame or its related projects,
except the illegals... and hardware people.

IF there were money to be made, companies would do it themselves... such as Namco's various old-skool-arcade packages. And if there isnt, it doesnt matter, cause the companies dont easily give out rights...if the companies even exists to allow permissions. Furthermore, permissions on a Pinball machine can span MANY people. From the theme they used, such as a movie company... to individual artwork by artists... voice talents, musical scores... etc.

And when you realize this... you can start to see how unlikely it is that anyone in Digital Pinball has real rights to these pins.


As Ive said, enjoy your hobby playing with other peoples works... but dont expect to get paid or even recognized for your efforts. In fact, you should be as Quiet and low-key as you can, else you upset someone enough to get the entire project put on Ice 'forever'.

Let the others take a fall over it, and keep playing / working... hoping that it will go no further than where they were stopped.


And I repeat... If you want to make money, find a way to make your own Original material to sell.
Dont expect to make it off others works. Even David Foley cant seem to do it legally or for long,
and hes an outright Snake.

[Smeghead]

This is devastating to the community


JP IS VP!
That little Papa Smurf down by the plunger the sign of quality


I cant believe updates and new tables still come out its awesome, and JP is 80% of anything thats good
Dont rip off peoples work without permission or at least credit.

Edited by Smeghead, 26 May 2011 - 05:04 PM.

[destruk]

Doubtful David Foleys Liceneses are actually Legally Valid.

He claimed they were valid on Ultracade, and it turns out most of them were not valid.

The table authors whose tables were used got signed contracts, and got paid for use of their work on Ultracade. I know, I got my checks for helping with the tables that they got signed permission to use. Williams and Bally got paid the $250,000 for use of their romsets on Ultracade - I saw the license to that too. So in my opinion, he did everything he could and followed through on the people that mattered for that. Bifuca hasn't.

As for many companies being contacted, with Ultracade there were these people involved - Randy Davis who gave them rights to modify his VP, the PinMAME Dev Team, which got their cut, the table authors which got their cut, the employees which got paid, the contractors and manufacturing infrastructure which was paid for, williams and bally, which got paid - who am I missing that hadn't known who he was?

As for the rest, you believe what you say and there isn't going to be any talking you out of that. You do sound like a very angry/upset person with most of your posts - I suggest you go and add that analog controller support to VP you originally wanted.

[kungfusteve]

Doubtful David Foleys Liceneses are actually Legally Valid.

He claimed they were valid on Ultracade, and it turns out most of them were not valid.

The table authors whose tables were used got signed contracts, and got paid for use of their work on Ultracade. I know, I got my checks for helping with the tables that they got signed permission to use. Williams and Bally got paid the $250,000 for use of their romsets on Ultracade - I saw the license to that too. So in my opinion, he did everything he could and followed through on the people that mattered for that. Bifuca hasn't.

As for many companies being contacted, with Ultracade there were these people involved - Randy Davis who gave them rights to modify his VP, the PinMAME Dev Team, which got their cut, the table authors which got their cut, the employees which got paid, the contractors and manufacturing infrastructure which was paid for, williams and bally, which got paid - who am I missing that hadn't known who he was?

As for the rest, you believe what you say and there isn't going to be any talking you out of that. You do sound like a very angry/upset person with most of your posts - I suggest you go and add that analog controller support to VP you originally wanted.

Can you PROVE the contract was real? Or you simply believe it cause he paid you?
How about calling up or emailing those respective companies and REALLY checking. Or are you just going to be a fanboy?

You want to believe the best, and thats all you.. but the reality of things is a lot different that YOU want to see.
Between DF and ME, I may not have the money and power he has... but I do have integrity. Thats something DF does not have, and its been proven:

Two indicted over theft of arcade software

Henry K. Lee, Chronicle Staff Writer
San Francisco Chronicle July 10, 2009 04:00 AM Copyright San Francisco Chronicle. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Friday, July 10, 2009

Read more: http://www.sfgate.co...L#ixzz1NVyMFjai


http://www.sfgate.co.../BA6L18LLG3.DTL

Two men have been indicted by a federal grand jury on charges that they stole arcade-game software belonging to a San Jose company.

David Russell Foley of Los Gatos and Michael Daddona were named in a 35-count indictment unsealed this week. The indictment, handed up July 1 by a grand jury in San Jose, includes charges of conspiracy, trafficking in counterfeit goods, theft of trade secrets, mail and wire fraud, conspiracy to commit money laundering and bank fraud.

Foley pleaded not guilty Wednesday and was released on $100,000 bond.

Foley owned UltraCade Technologies in San Jose, which produced game packs, collections of video games that could be loaded onto arcade video-game machines. Foley sold his company and its intellectual property to Global VR of San Jose in June 2006.

But just before he sold UltraCade, Foley made game packs at his home using a burner stolen from UltraCade, the indictment said.

Foley was fired from the company, but for the next two years, he kept the proprietary code and trade secrets now belonging to Global VR and "secretly manufactured and sold game packs with counterfeit markings belonging to Global VR for his own financial benefit," the indictment said.

In doing so, Foley stole the code that enabled consumers to play Global VR games - as well as those licensed to other companies including Namco, Nintendo and Taito - on video-arcade game platforms belonging to Global VR, authorities said.

Foley sold the game packs he made to Automated Services, a Connecticut arcade-game company owned by Daddona, the indictment said. Daddona advertised the game packs on eBay at a lower price and sold them to customers across the country, authorities said.

Foley also sold a burner to Daddona, enabling Daddona to make game packs, the indictment said.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.co...L#ixzz1NVx7Dmbq

[EalaDubhSidhe]

Wait, wut? They paid 250 grand for the roms, before manufacturing and promotional costs, on a product on which they sold 200 units at around what, 4k each gross, less distributor discount?



No wonder Bifuca are blagging as much on the cheap as they can.

[destruk]

Can you PROVE the contract was real? Or you simply believe it cause he paid you?
How about calling up or emailing those respective companies and REALLY checking. Or are you just going to be a fanboy?

You want to believe the best, and thats all you.. but the reality of things is a lot different that YOU want to see.
Between DF and ME, I may not have the money and power he has... but I do have integrity. Thats something DF does not have, and its been proven:

I have photocopies of the contracts right here, and Randy Davis confirmed via email that VP was licensed for Ultrapin, so uh, yeah. One of them is the original as well, as I had to sign it, as did Scapino, PacDude, and others who allowed their tables to be used in Ultrapin.
The numbers work out right - 200*$5000 sale price = 1 million dollars - $250K = 750K left over. Even if their 'cost' was $3000 to pay for parts and labor to build the cabinet they still made a pretty penny after all was done.

[kungfusteve]

Hmm, whats that about Legal Licenses? Hmm, lets listen to the real investigated Truth:

http://www.gamasutra...php?story=24691


Read the zillion page review above. Heres some fun snipits:


"G-mode has no recollection or documentation of licensing out our Data East titles to Ultracade or to Mr. Foley himself, and G-mode hopes that these indictments help move and strengthen video game anti-piracy in the appropriate direction."

"We checked these matters which you informed us of and found there's no evidence that Jaleco had licensed to the companies Ultracade and Hyperware, and the person David R Foley".

"Thank you very much for letting us know about this because we were unaware our games were being sold or pirated. Tecmo was not aware of the lawsuit or the indictment against Mr. David R. Foley until your e-mail reached us. We never had a legitimate licensing contract with Foley to sell our games on his Ultracade console and we hope the case is brought to justice.

"The two titles you mentioned are in fact owned by SNK Playmore Corp. However, I cannot confirm if the games in the Ultracade are SNK originals since we have never played or tested the games on the system. Also, SNK has not licensed the two titles to Ultracade Technologies. They are using the games without SNK Playmore Corp. approval. Just to be clear, both Alpha and Technos were former developers for SNK, however they have gone out of business and the IP [of those two games] is owned by SNK Playmore Corp."

"No, we never licensed both games to them", Koyama claimed via a July 17th, 2009 email from the Los Angeles office of SNK Playmore USA, adding emphatically, "They never ever asked to license from us!"


Ultracade is completely out of bounds in selling 'Pac-Man' or any other Namco titles for arcade use with their system. They have not licensed it from Namco or anyone else. Operators buying Namco titles from them should realize they are buying an unlicensed, illegal product and that Namco is taking appropriate action to protect its intellectual property from misuse / theft."

[destruk]

And yeah, I'm sure everyone saw that article too - as far as proven, the charges were dropped. So that proves nothing. As to your own integrity, I have no proof of that anywhere.

[kungfusteve]

How about you Read what I posted, and then do as I said. Contact Williams and check up.
Are you Afraid ???

All you have is photocopies of pieces of paper. You have NO clue as to if they are real and
valid.

I could make up all kinds of phony documentation, Sign it, have others sign it, and put money behind it.
It wouldnt make Legal.

You already have Proof of past wrong deeds done, stolen IP, no legal contracts..etc.. and yet
you are believe every word as truth without question.

You know what they say? "Theres a Sucker born Every Minute"

The company is pretty much disbanded and broken. I cant imagine theres much to fight for... and all large parties such as Namco have nobody to sue since the company is pretty much gone.

However, the PROOF that he stole IP that didnt belong to him exists. As does a lot of other wrongdoings hes done over the years.

You wouldnt believe the audacity of the man, attacking the mame community at first, trying to buy the name up from under them... then calling people out about their piracy acts... then we find out hes been pirating stuff all along.

What a joke.

I find it amusing to say the least, that you gobble the stuff up like hes the best guy in the world.

Must have been a nice payday for you

Right or Wrong, you got paid so its all good right? And hes good right?
Moral Compass? (gone)