71 replies to this topic

[Plumb]

There was a later version of this guide that had other confirmed measurements but it is lost in the ether.

Maybe the measurements are in this post?

Clicking that link takes me to nothing valuable except for an exceedingly long thread that is difficult to navigate.

Is there a way to view threads flat rather than in a tree view?

[rob046]

The measurements we are looking for I'm almost certain are not in that thread. Only thing in there is an older & less complete version of what I already posted above.

[Plumb]

The measurements we are looking for I'm almost certain are not in that thread. Only thing in there is an older & less complete version of what I already posted above.

Thanks Rob, I won't spend any more time looking there per your information. More time to stitch and repair for the masses.

And I'm working on confirming the Magic Castle measurement for you, cross your fingers.

[EalaDubhSidhe]

Heighway Pinball's standard-body size is also 20.25 x 46. Just so you know.

[StevOz]

Bump, took me half an hour to find this thread, requesting it be made sticky, please.

[maceman]

I second Steve's motion for a sticky here!!

 

Guys, i have a question for Genie.  So,  i am told that the actual PF for Genie is 55 X 28 1/2 (widebody) apparantly.

So how do i convert this to VP?

 

So the G System 1 is 20.25 X 42 for the standard body.  I have a high res playfield that i want to use of 4096 X 2048 @ 72 DPI.

 

So what, with the above, is the best size to start with in VP for the table?  I am using Noah's calculation of 47 VP units/inch and get:

 

2585 X 1339.5

 

Is this correct? What will the PF above do in a table of this size?

 

Thanx in advance,

Maceman

Edited by maceman, 27 February 2013 - 09:42 PM.

[rob046]

I second Steve's motion for a sticky here!!

 

Guys, i have a question for Genie.  So,  i am told that the actual PF for Genie is 55 X 28 1/2 (widebody) apparantly.

So how do i convert this to VP?

 

So the G System 1 is 20.25 X 42 for the standard body.  I have a high res playfield that i want to use of 4096 X 2048 @ 72 DPI.

 

So what, with the above, is the best size to start with in VP for the table?  I am using Noah's calculation of 47 VP units/inch and get:

 

2585 X 1339.5

 

Is this correct? What will the PF above do in a table of this size?

 

Thanx in advance,

Maceman

 

Where did you get that sizing?  It isn't just wrong, it is way wrong.  PF length is about the same as system 80's, so like 46.5" or 47" max, I'm told its probably 47" to be precise.  Width is the same as Circus, because I read about somebody who used a Circus lockbar on a Genie, so through deductive reasoning (my dear Watson), we can conclude Genie is the same as...

*Gottlieb System 80 - Circus (extra wide) = 26.75" x 46.50" = 1258 x 2186 vpus

If you want to go with 47" on the length then...

Genie (1979) = 26.75" x 47" = 1258 x 2209 vpus

 

Looks like 55", according to somebody who told me at pinside, the 55" is the total length of the cab, not the PF.  I knew that couldn't be right, no PF is 55" long!  That is super duper huge!

 

& YES this should be stickied.  Some people still make tables at incorrect sizes even though all the info needed is here in this thread.

Plumb spent a lot of time years ago coming up with this chart, & I've spent a good bit of time myself keeping it maintained & adding to it.

& speaking of, I did make a couple little updates to it in january, but I forgot exactly what I added, so here I'll just paste below & attach, with this Genie info added as well...

 

(last updated feb 2013)
I did a little experiment, made a table 1000 units wide, had a ball roll to the flat bottom, copied to photoshop, and duplicated the balls from edge to edge along the bottom, and I came up with, based on the known fact that pinballs are 1 1/16" in diameter...

1000 VP units = 21.25" or 539.75 mm

therefore...

1 vp unit = .53975 mm

47 VP units = 1 inch

therefore...

Early Bally Wide body table playfield i.e. future spa is....

1167.2 VP Units Wide x 1908.3 VP units long.

Of course I could be wrong.

=========================================================
EMs

Bally 70s EM - standard = 20.25" x 41.00" = 952 x 1927 vpus
G 70s EM - standard = 20.25" x 41.00" = 952 x 1927 vpus


Early SSs

*G System 1 - standard = 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus
Stern - widebody = 23.875" x 45.00" = 1122 x 2115 vpus
*Stern - standard = 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus
Zaccaria - standard SS - 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus
*Pre WMS Bally - standard = 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus
*Pre WMS Bally - widebody = 26.75" x 40.50" = 1257 x 1904 vpus (I think this should be 42" tall, for embryon at least)
*WMS System 1-11 - standard = 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus
WMS System 1-11 - widebody = 27.00" x 42.00" = 1269 x 1974 vpus
*Atari - widebody = 27.00" x 45.00" = 1269 x 2115 vpus
*Gottlieb System 80 - standard = 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus
*Gottlieb System 80 - widebody = 23.75" x 46.50" = 1116 x 2186 vpus
*Gottlieb System 80 - extra wide (Circus & Star Race) = 26.75" x 46.50" = 1258 x 2186 vpus
*Game Plan - 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus

Modern SSs

Capcom tables = 20.25" x 46.00" = 952 x 2162 vpus
*Data East - standard = 20.25" x 46.00" = 952 x 2162 vpus
Data East - widebody = 25.00" x 51.75" = 1175 x 2432 vpus (is this right??)
*Safecracker = 16.50" x 41.50" = 776 x 1950 vpus
*WPC (through 1987) - standard = 20.50" x 42.00" = 964 x 1974 vpus
*WPC (1987 on) - standard = 20.50" x 46.00" = 964 x 2162 vpus
**Apparently at least one of these is not like the others.. I measured the Drac PF and it was/is 20.25" x 45.00" = 952 x 2115 vpus
*WPC - superpin = 23.25" x 46.00" = 1093 x 2162 vpus
*Pin2K tables = 20.50" x 43.00" = 964 x 2021 vpus
*Gottlieb System 3 = 20.25" x 46.00" = 952 x 2162 vpus
*Stern Modern = 20.25" x 45.00" = 952 x 2115 vpus
*Alvin G = 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus *Mystery Castle looks to be 46" long (2162 vpus)

* = Verified

----------------------------------------------------
Individual Games
----------------------------------------------------
**There can always be exceptions to the above with certain unique tables, some of them are...

Genie (1979) = 26.75" x 47" = 1258 x 2209 vpus
Black Knight 2000 (1989) = 20.25" x 46.00" = 952 x 2162 vpus
Bride of Pinbot (1991) = 20.25" x 45.25" = 952 x 2127 vpus
BSD Dracula (1993) : 20.25" x 45.00" = 952 x 2115 vpus
Doctor Who (1992) : 20.25" x 45.0625" = 952 x 2118 vpus
Hercules (1979 Atari) : 36" x 72" = 1692 x 3384 vpus (cabinet size: 39" x 93", and 83" tall) [991mm x 2362mm x 2108]
Mystery Castle (Alvin G) = 20.25" x 46.00" = 952 x 2162 vpus (likely but not 100% verified)
Safecracker (1996) : 16.50" x 41.50" = 776 x 1951 - probably more like 18.35" x 41.50" = 862 x 1951 - not verified though.
Varkon (1982) : 24" x 21" = 1128 x 987 vpus (WMS) (Yes, it is wider than it is long. Plays like a cocktail table.)
World Cup Soccer (1994) : 20.25" x 45.75" = 952 x 2150 vpus (Williams WPC-S)
(The "wall" at the back of the playfield with the stadium lights graphics is 515mm x 172mm (20.25" x 6.75"), and has slightly rounded top corners.)

----------------------------------------------------
The Unknowns
----------------------------------------------------
Sega (standard) = ???  (likely same as Data East standard)
Sega (widebody) = ???  (if you need to guess, try Data East Widebody size)
Micropin tabletops = ???
Cocktail tables = ???
Data East Widebody needs verified??? (best guess based on 46" height is 23.7" wide roughly)
Any others = ???

---------------------------------------------
From WMS site

"Williams' standard playfield length increased from 42" to 46" in 1988"
===========================================================

I checked the difference on VP9 and it's negligible. These dimensions should be fine for both programs.

The main difference between VP8 and VP9 is the physical size, not the apparent, visual size.

That's why there's no ball through the flipper in VP9 and some VP8 ramps are too small.

Attached Files

•  VP Table Sizes update.txt   4.46KB   23 downloads

Edited by rob046, 27 February 2013 - 11:20 PM.

[maceman]

Hi Rob,
Thanx very much for chiming in!! i really want to understand this as this is the part that stalls me at every potential 'start-from'scratch' build.
Ok, where i saw this info is that i googled "Gottlieb Genie Playfield Size" and it brought me to a gopinball thread for FP. (doesn't let me post the URL here, but googling the above scroll to look for gopinball link 5 or 6th down)

In that thread, the OP says:
Hey guys, I'm stumped on what dimensions to use for a Genie widebody - the true dimensions are
Body
55" D
28 1/2 W
16 3/4 H
 
So that is where i saw the dimensions. It looks as though he must be referring to the entire cab as you say and is why i posted to find out as i don't have the machine here

So this is great info, i appreciate it!

Genie VP:
Genie (1979) = 26.75" x 47" = 1258 x 2209 vpus


Cheers,
Maceman

btw- I noticed you round up rather than down for the 26.75 (26.75 X 47= 1257.25). Is that what we should do with any number less that 1, we should round down... instead of,say, 1257 X 2209 vpus ?

Also, What PF image size would you use to match this wide body table? What would render the best quality i mean. Thanx.

Edited by maceman, 28 February 2013 - 01:37 AM.

[rob046]

I think that width measurement in VPU's was probably made by plumb.  I only calculated the 47" size because that is a new size that hadn't been calculated yet.  Not sure why he would of rounded down there.  I would just go ahead & use normal rounding rules.

But better yet, & to be more precise, go ahead & use fractions of a unit as well.  Like go ahead & put in 1257.25.  VP can take it, & if it doesn't register the fraction of a unit, it should round itself to the closest number.  But when dealing with a difference of 1 unit on a table this big, its pretty insignificant.

 

Yeah whoever gave that table size before, that is definitely the size of the cabinet, it seems.  I hope they didn't go ahead & make the table at those dimensions!  The ball would be very small looking & FP models wouldn't be properly proportioned.

 

As for texture size to use, I did some experiments with this.  Seems like a lot of people will use, for example, 2048x1024x, then let VP stretch it out to the proper proportions.  This can give good results, but I got slightly better results by using proper power of 2 texture size for the length (2048x or 4096x), but then use a custom size for the width.  Like the actual proportion.  So for example I think the PF I made for Magic Castle was like 2048x988 or something like that.  With that, no stretching was involved, & so the image looked a bit better.

 

Although it should be noted that VP doesn't handle textures properly & has had issues with some of this stuff.  Damn I forget the details now, but the devs know the problem.  It had something to do with the power of 2 stuff.  Normally you probably would want to go with like 4096x2048 or 2048x1024, but since VP doesn't seem to mind using something like 2048x988, & it seems to look better, then why not just use that?  Going 4096x on a texture might be a little overkill.  I would maybe add that as an alternate high res set.

These days it seems like 2048x max on a texture is a good standard to go by, then 4096x max for the people who can handle those textures.  Otherwise, a lot of people will have crashing issues with 4096x textures.  But again, maybe some of this texture related stuff will be improved in this upcoming VP915.  I can't answer that.

Edited by rob046, 28 February 2013 - 03:04 AM.

[pinuck]

Also, What PF image size would you use to match this wide body table? What would render the best quality i mean. Thanx.

 

For me personally, I do what Rob said at one point near the end there.

 

Even though I'll sometimes use a larger size in my working PSD's, I resize all the (fullscreen) textures i import into VP to a height of 2048px, keeping the width proportional.

 

I think people do different things though, but that works well IMHO.

[bodydump]

 I resize all the (fullscreen) textures i import into VP to a height of 2048px, keeping the width proportional.

 

Same here.

[maceman]

Thanx again guys! I am going to work on this next.

 

Why is this not being stickied when 10 people have requested it? I am tired of lookin for important things!!! Took me 10 minutes today.

Cheers,

Maceman

Edited by maceman, 06 March 2013 - 02:51 AM.

[rob046]

I just had a thought & I'm not sure if I'm having some kind of brain fart & missing something here.  But suddenly none of these calculations seem to make any sense.  If the ball is 50 VP units, & say a PF is 42" long, 50x42 = 2100.  Currently all the sizes seem based on the ball being 47 units.  Making 42" =  1974 units.  However, I think the ball looks about right when the current measurements are used.

Am I losing my mind here?

I ask because I was just about to update the chart again, as I now have confirmed measurements on Data East & Sega widebody.  Then I noticed this.

Edited by rob046, 11 March 2013 - 03:56 AM.

[jimmyfingers]

 

I just had a thought & I'm not sure if I'm having some kind of brain fart & missing something here.  But suddenly none of these calculations seem to make any sense.  If the ball is 50 VP units, & say a PF is 42" long, 50x42 = 2100.  Currently all the sizes seem based on the ball being 47 units.  Making 42" =  1974 units.  However, I think the ball looks about right when the current measurements are used.
Am I losing my mind here?
I ask because I was just about to update the chart again, as I now have confirmed measurements on Data East & Sega widebody.  Then I noticed this.

It's based on the standard pinball size of 1 and 1/16th inch. The calculations are based on 1 inch being 47 VP units which is correct taking the 50 unit ball and dividing it by 1 and 1/16.

[maceman]

...which again is rounded up?

1.0625 X 47 = 49.9375

[rob046]

OK, I was just dealing with too much math today & got things twisted!

Anyways, here is the updated chart (Sega & Data East standard & widebody added & should be correct).  I was just thinking that even posting it here isn't too helpful, because it ends up buried in the middle of an old thread.  We should start a new thread with this & try to get that stickied and/or just put this chart in the table resources thread...

 

(last updated march 2013)
I did a little experiment, made a table 1000 units wide, had a ball roll to the flat bottom, copied to photoshop, and

duplicated the balls from edge to edge along the bottom, and I came up with, based on the known fact that pinballs are 1 1/16"

in diameter...

1000 VP units = 21.25" or 539.75 mm

therefore...

1 vp unit = .53975 mm

47 VP units = 1 inch

therefore...

Early Bally Wide body table playfield i.e. Centaur is....

952 VP Units Wide x 1974 units long.

Of course I could be wrong.

=========================================================
EMs

Bally 70s EM - standard = 20.25" x 41.00" = 952 x 1927 vpus
G 70s EM - standard = 20.25" x 41.00" = 952 x 1927 vpus


Early SSs

*G System 1 - standard = 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus
Stern - widebody = 23.875" x 45.00" = 1122 x 2115 vpus
*Stern - standard = 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus
Zaccaria - standard SS - 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus
*Pre WMS Bally - standard = 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus
*Pre WMS Bally - widebody = 26.75" x 42.00" = 1257 x 1974 vpus
*WMS System 1-11 - standard = 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus
WMS System 1-11 - widebody = 27.00" x 42.00" = 1269 x 1974 vpus
*Atari - widebody = 27.00" x 45.00" = 1269 x 2115 vpus
*Gottlieb System 80 - standard = 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus
*Gottlieb System 80 - widebody = 23.75" x 46.50" = 1116 x 2186 vpus
*Gottlieb System 80 - extra wide (Circus & Star Race) = 26.75" x 46.50" = 1258 x 2186 vpus
*Game Plan - 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus

Modern SSs

Capcom tables = 20.25" x 46.00" = 952 x 2162 vpus (not verified but probably right)
Data East & Sega - standard = 20.25" x 46.00" = 952 x 2162 vpus
Data East & Sega - widebody = 23.25" x 46.00" = 1093 x 2162 vpus
Safecracker = 16.50" x 41.50" = 776 x 1950 vpus
WPC (through 1987) - standard = 20.50" x 42.00" = 964 x 1974 vpus
WPC (1987 on) - standard = 20.50" x 46.00" = 964 x 2162 vpus
**Apparently at least one of these is not like the others.. I measured the Drac PF and it was/is 20.25" x 45.00" = 952 x 2115

vpus
WPC - superpin = 23.25" x 46.00" = 1093 x 2162 vpus
Pin2K tables = 20.50" x 43.00" = 964 x 2021 vpus
Gottlieb System 3 = 20.25" x 46.00" = 952 x 2162 vpus
Stern Modern = 20.25" x 45.00" = 952 x 2115 vpus
Alvin G = 20.25" x 42.00" = 952 x 1974 vpus *Mystery Castle looks to be 46" long (2162 vpus)



----------------------------------------------------
Individual Games
----------------------------------------------------
**There can always be exceptions to the above with certain unique tables, some of them are...

Genie (1979) = 26.75" x 47" = 1258 x 2209 vpus
Black Knight 2000 (1989) = 20.25" x 46.00" = 952 x 2162 vpus
Bride of Pinbot (1991) = 20.25" x 45.25" = 952 x 2127 vpus
BSD Dracula (1993) : 20.25" x 45.00" = 952 x 2115 vpus
Doctor Who (1992) : 20.25" x 45.0625" = 952 x 2118 vpus
Hercules (1979 Atari) : 36" x 72" = 1692 x 3384 vpus (cabinet size: 39" x 93", and 83" tall) [991mm x 2362mm x 2108]
Mystery Castle (Alvin G) = 20.25" x 46.00" = 952 x 2162 vpus (likely but not 100% verified)
Safecracker (1996) : 16.50" x 41.50" = 776 x 1951 - probably more like 18.35" x 41.50" = 862 x 1951 - not verified though.
Varkon (1982) : 24" x 21" = 1128 x 987 vpus (WMS) (Yes, it is wider than it is long. Plays like a cocktail table.)
World Cup Soccer (1994) : 20.25" x 45.75" = 952 x 2150 vpus (Williams WPC-S)
(The "wall" at the back of the playfield with the stadium lights graphics is 515mm x 172mm (20.25" x 6.75"), and has slightly

rounded top corners.)

----------------------------------------------------
The Unknowns
----------------------------------------------------
Micropin tabletops = ???
Cocktail tables = ???
Any others = ???

---------------------------------------------
From WMS site

"Williams' standard playfield length increased from 42" to 46" in 1988"
===========================================================

I checked the difference on VP9 and it's negligible. These dimensions should be fine for both programs.

The main difference between VP8 and VP9 is the physical size, not the apparent, visual size.

That's why there's no ball through the flipper in VP9 and some VP8 ramps are too small.

Attached Files

•  VP Table Sizes update.txt   4.19KB   28 downloads

[kruge99]

Thanx again guys! I am going to work on this next.

 

Why is this not being stickied when 10 people have requested it? I am tired of lookin for important things!!! Took me 10 minutes today.

Cheers,

Maceman

 

I 'stickied' this a week or two ago as requested... it's right where I left it:

 

http://www.vpforums....hp?showforum=37

[maceman]

Thanx man!! 

[rob046]

Thanx again guys! I am going to work on this next.

 

Why is this not being stickied when 10 people have requested it? I am tired of lookin for important things!!! Took me 10 minutes today.

Cheers,

Maceman

 

I 'stickied' this a week or two ago as requested... it's right where I left it:

 

http://www.vpforums....hp?showforum=37

 

Thanks!  Now, my only hope is that somebody looking into this thread will know to scroll to the middle or end, & not rely on the outdated info at the beginning.  If you wanted to unpin that thread & I could start a new thread now that all notable playfield sizes have more or less been confirmed, then pin that one.  IDK, pinning this one is better than nothing though.  Thanks again.

[pinuck]

Anyone know if a Zaccaria EM (ie. Supersonic) would be the same as a Gottlieb EM (20.25x41) or as a Zacc SS (20.25x42)?