17 replies to this topic

[jimmyfingers]

With the previous two BMPR MOD table releases, I included a new flipper routine that I developed that allowed for soft taps and some flipper tricks as a result. It's based on a process / timer that essentially depletes than charges the flipper strength back up to full strength in quick steps AFTER letting go of the flipper when held up / on. So, when quickly let go and pressed again, a lighter shot can be made. It has several steps but takes only a total of about 1/4 of a second to fully charge back up through the 6 increments (including full strength). The combination is good enough for some variably soft hits / passes yet still quick enough to be able to still get a full strength hit without the ball barely moving from a rested / trapped position (this is demonstrated in the video with a backhand shot from rest on the right flipper into the coffin lock – yet a similarly timed / looking shot can be made to do a post pass to the left flipper)

I used BSD as it is my next MOD for the BMPR routine and this time there was a great video available at papa.org / pinball.org which enabled lots of observation and analysis. The detail and overhead in that video allowed me to MOD the table’s flippers to be very close to how the real one plays and behaves (including some pretty precise backhand shots). The flipper physics settings that JP had in the original table were quite good and actually are essentially the same except for increasing the strength slightly and decreasing the Oblique Correction. This was done for a few reasons and with some bearing on the other physics changes that went along with balancing the BMPR implementation. The start and end angles had a reasonable overhaul with some slight re-positioning. The variable flipper strength routine is essentially independent of whatever flipper settings you use and can be applied to any table but, in this case, I was also matching other characteristics to the real table.

The flipper angle on BSD, as I've now learned, is quite shallow and a lot of the time the ball will roll right down the in-lane over the flipper and pass on to the other. This shallow angle presented a challenge though as the other tables with my BMPR and flipper MODs used entirely different flipper settings that had a much harder angle which helped flip shots straight up the table without Oblique Correction over-kill and for which still worked when the ball came through the in-lane or from the sides with some speed.

The video shows flipper tricks executed in this modded VP version of BSD for a Post Pass, Rolling Tap Pass, Ball Separation, and of course the Bounce Pass (which is common already). Still no flipper catch though (thinking of ways to try and make that work) and the post pass may be a little different than what seems more traditional by bouncing back off the flipper that initiated the pass (this, I imagine could be a little game specific especially on one with such slight flipper angles positioned as far away from the bottom of the slingshot posts as BSD’s are). The settings are balanced though with also being able to do a left and right ramp shot via a standing backhand from the corresponding (left and right) flippers. The MOD is close to ready but I have some finishing touches both desktop and FS versions before it is released. I will go into more detail in the release topic about other aspects of how the table has been as closely matched to real life as (I think) reasonably possible.

Here is the video and at the very end there is a brief segment with the BMPR disabled so you can compare. The overhead view was intentionally used for a more direct comparison with the pinball.org video which I feel matches quite well to this MOD when the BMPR is active. The video I made is not quite as smooth as I would like nor the highest quality but it should suffice to see the tricks at least and once the table is released you can try for yourself as I think this is the best physics MOD I’ve done to date.

[RipleYYY]

i'm stuned to see how VP as evolved since the eary ours, and this with the help of lots of guys, in various domains, pieces by pieces...

to be honest, i feel "your" MATA HARI too much bouncing (but may be the real game was as it !? as i dont remember well)
but no matter, as again VP is alive and well alive, and it continues to grow up
will try the BSD version as soon its available

[mariozeferino]

wow.. looks very good to me. congrats, look forward to try it

[JAM0]

Holy shit Jimmy, that looks awesome!! And on one of my very favorite tables to boot!

So cool that this matches up so closely to the PAPA video of the real table!

Edited by JAM0, 27 June 2012 - 08:47 AM.

[Pablouk]

Awesome work jimmy

any ideas when you will be releasing for us to try?

Thanks Paul

[unclewilly]

this must be more intensive then what you put in freddy.
when can i see a demo table to try this out

[jimmyfingers]

this must be more intensive then what you put in freddy.
when can i see a demo table to try this out

Yah, with Freddy, I didn't want to take too many liberties with your existing physics and flipper settings, so just added the BMPR and compared to some basic videos - no flipper matching. Unfortunately, Freddy is not on the PAPA site and their extensive of video and angle of BSD helped me in matchinig the physics a great deal. Also, I was mostly focused at the time as to not change too much more as part of that process was a proof of concept that i wasn't going to change the performance on an already demanding table such as Freddy, so the less I added the better for that analysis. On BSD, I've also slightly changed the general physics for a bit more gravity which was similar to an approach I started to use before developing the BMPR where I was using a bit less slope and heavier gravity. I feel this sight increase has added a bit more weighty look without having to increase friction which can make it look a bit floaty plus it seemed that less slope and more gravity helped the ball accelerate down table while maintaing some better lateral movement (with native VP physics).

I did adjust the rubbers all around on BSD but not too high / too much as well as activating the dampening routine on them based on medium to harder hits, however, this BSD table focus was mainly around the flippers and matching with a low enough slope and angle to produce similar ball rolling look and feel in and around (and over) them. Had to increase the BMPR setting for the "downhill" assist significantly as I had to keep the slope quite shallow to get as much action over the flippers and from the in-lane.

I'm going to try and get at least the FS version released before he long weekend here in Canada (this weekend) as I'm going away. It's very close but I need to try and match and make the changes back to the view and such for how the original one was and modify for a desktop version which I'd like to try and release at the same time as I've done in the past.

Once this BSD MOD is released, you'll be able to see mostly what physics and settings I used. After that (and this weekend) let me know if you want any more assistance on tuning Freddy. Lastly, I'm not entirely sure at this point whether the view in VP doesn't affect how the physics look - maybe not how they actually behave, but how they're "viewed" when translated when using things like layback and anti-ball stretch. This overhead view seems almost better looking physics wise than when I adjust it back to "my" normal cabinet view which is a 90 rotation. Jury is still out on that theory and some quantitative tests so far don't show it necessarily, maybe it's just the narrower view vs. a full 16:9 that helps the appearance. All I know, is it seemed better with this table and another one I'm testing in "PAPA matched" overhead views. In any case, I'll continue to tune the tables I can with this view then adjust back to the usual ones when done - I think that process has helped for matching game play and feel.

Edited by jimmyfingers, 27 June 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[ZERO99]

Awesome to see this Mod make it to a more modern table. I remember suggesting this table for one the first more modern tables to use this mod because of the long left ramp.

[cupid]

Very interesting. I'm really looking forward in seeing your script.

Nice mod, thought about this and the possible physical background the whole day.

Edited by cupid, 27 June 2012 - 05:05 PM.

[thewool]

This looks inspiring Jimmy, my flipper fingers were twitching watching that video!

I loved your other mods, but would also say they were a touch too bouncy (just a touch)... but the balance of this table looks really good.

Can't wait for the release, might have to watch the film in preperation

Cheers

[rob046]

I find it hard to judge any physics too closely via video, because in video you lose frames which causes issues. Though I suppose this is why even the PAPA videos, as good as they are, still aren't quite a substitute for what you experience in real life, though they serve their purpose well in teaching people shots & rules.
Glad to see you making use of those Jimmy, cuz those tables are usually kept well maintained. Better go by those vids than any others, even if those games might play a little faster than average. Certainly much better than no vids at all.

As for bounciness, I say this all the time but I'll say it again to those saying this or that is too bouncy. It simply really depends. If you put new rubber on a game, it could be up to 2x bouncier than that same game 5 years after putting the new rubber on. Also, it depends on slope. I personally set my games to the factory slope, such as 5-5.5 for older games, maybe 6.5 for newer. This is in real life btw. Each pinball place might set slope differently. Some think they can make more money by using a steeper slope making the games tougher. Others are indifferent about it & either on purpose or by mistake might set it too low. When you get, say an old game that has both newer rubbers & a shallow slope, you can get games playing with the kind of bounce you see on Jimmy's Mata Hari or Firepower. Since that can happen in real life, & the tables Jimmy played were set that way, then there is really no wrong answer for how a game should play in terms of bounciness, as long as you are in the ballpark with it. I do have my own preferences that I built up over time. Also, black rubber is less bouncy than white rubber. These days people in real life tend to prefer white rubber for almost every game. Some like the extra bounce, but many do it because white keeps their game cleaner.

Anyhow, looking forward to this Mod. I won't know for sure how it feels until I can actually play it, but if you are matching things to the PAPA video then I'm sure it will be solid playing & I look forward to it. If you'd like me to test & get my thoughts, feel free to PM it to me.

Edited by rob046, 27 June 2012 - 10:42 PM.

[johnparker007]

That is bloody good work jimmy (Sorry had to get that Dracula pun in!). Serious though, very impressive - that's the most realistic flipper/ball interaction and ball physics I've seen to date on any computer pinball sim

Edited by johnparker007, 28 June 2012 - 07:28 AM.

[thewool]

...just to qualify what I meant by a touch too bouncy Jimmy. Firstly it was just my input, and I really did mean 'a touch'. This was after comparing VP play to videos (and some memories, all be them now quite old) of the real machine/s. My other experience with Firepower suggests that the contact friction was set a couple of points too high. This made the ball speed really linear, so for example when it bounces off an object and runs down the table it never seemed to pick up any speed which gave a false effect of the ball not having much mass. Of the two new mods Mata Hari was the more refined. As you know already though I love the mod and the new edge it brings.

I always think the PAPA videos play too steep, possibly to give them mega control. Playing machines setup normally (read differently) seems to add more elasticity to the rubbers, and allows the ball more freedom and random bounces and such. Personally I prefer the open feel of this type of slope setup but thats just me

Looking forward to BSD!

[settingsons]

That looks extremely good from the video. I opened up the Papa video side by side with this one and the ball behaviour looks very similar. Can't wait to try it. Thanks again for all the time you are putting in to these routines.

Edited by settingsons, 28 June 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[maceman]

I CANNOT WAIT TO TRY THIS!!!!

That looks fantastic!!! Nice work. Is this something that can be added to any table, or is there a process involved?

Cheers,
Maceman

[jimmyfingers]

BMPR / Physics MOD versions(s) now released:
Desktop Version Link: http://www.vpforums....u...l&f_id=6223
FS Version Link: http://www.vpforums....u...l&f_id=6222

@JohnParker007 - That is the compliment of all compliments, thanks! I still want to draw attention to and thank JPSalas for the original BSD table and allowing me to play around in the "icing on the cake". I've spent a ton of time just working in the Lighting and BMPR / physics realm that I just wouldn't have the extra time (or even knowledge / capability) if I had to do all the ground "main" work in building a whole table.

Edited by jimmyfingers, 28 June 2012 - 11:10 PM.

[johnparker007]

BMPR / Physics MOD versions(s) now released:
Desktop Version Link: http://www.vpforums....u...l&f_id=6223
FS Version Link: http://www.vpforums....u...l&f_id=6222

@JohnParker007 - That is the compliment of all compliments, thanks! I still want to draw attention to and thank JPSalas for the original BSD table and allowing me to play around in the "icing on the cake". I've spent a ton of time just working in the Lighting and BMPR / physics realm that I just wouldn't have the extra time (or even knowledge / capability) if I had to do all the ground "main" work in building a whole table.

Oh yes of course full props go out to the amazing JP! But the two/three ball catches, light taps to pass it from the tip of the flipper, along with ''standard' passing from flipper to flipper... alongside the momentum stuff for a weightier ball - top notch stuff - ahead of current commercial pinball games (Zen, Pinball Arcade etc...).

Although obviously there are much better ball physics in Future Pinball!

[CaptainNeo]

looks fantastic. Looks like a lot of the flipper techniques you can use in VP now. Still early SS bally tables has soft taps which you can use to gently toss the ball over to the other flipper as it rolls to the tip. That will be hard to duplicate, because the flipper only moves 5 degrees if done right. Watched lyman do this technique against me in a tournament on paragon. Trap with the left flipper. Gentle toss to the right flipper for bonus drop target shots. One after the other. Needless to say, he stopped all our asses.