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VPX physics recommendations


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#1 fuzzel

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 05:05 PM

Hi everyone,

 

together with JimmyFingers I collected some physics settings for some default VP elements. I attached a small text document where I listed some settings which might be useful for some authors creatings tables. The list is far from perfect because there aren't perfect values for one element. It all depends on the way how the elements are used on a table. As always take a look at it and give some feedback so we can give a more complete list for everyone.

 

Cheers

fuzzel

Attached Files



#2 Slydog43

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 05:15 PM

Yes, this is what I really love about VPX, physics is so much more "realistic" than vp9.  Thanks for the guide and I hope authors will use it.   Happy holidays all around the VP scene.



#3 BorgDog

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 05:45 PM

Thanks fuzzel and Jimmyfingers!  I've been trying to tune some of my tables more and this is a great starting point.  You mention raising friction for em tables (which is what I make),  Do the tables actually have more friction, or is it more the function of slope, or both?  Maybe add some good starting points for slope as well, I'm currently tweaking Gottliebs 1971 Star Trek/Astro and have slope at 4 which seems to work but am having trouble balancing all the objects to get a nice bounce but not go crazy.  Should slope actually match the angle the real table should be set at?



#4 toxie

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 05:46 PM

i would say it depends on both slope and friction. EM tables didn't have such an insane clearoat and polish like modern tables had, but also were not as steep.



#5 Knorr

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 05:58 PM

Can someone describe coilrampup again? 35ms sound huge. I think on my machine the flippers are faster with the up and down movement together...

#6 nFozzy

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 06:05 PM

Higher table friction has the best effect for ball spin, but it plays too slow for modern tables. 0.02 to 0.035 feels about right, but the PF is practically ice at those levels. Is there any way to adjust the speed of physics directly?



#7 fuzzel

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 06:41 PM

Best way to handle the ball speed is to set the friction to something like 0.075 or 0.1 and on top of that adjust the table slope because that's the way you would speed up the ball on real tables.


Edited by fuzzel, 29 December 2015 - 07:37 PM.


#8 nFozzy

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 07:34 PM

With any angle any higher than 6.5, there's much less side-to-side ball movement. I want a wild ball with some spin as well.



#9 fuzzel

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 07:39 PM

0.02 or 0.035 is too low. Take a look at JP's AFM. That one plays nearly like the real thing and the ball spin is also present.



#10 gtxjoe

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 07:45 PM

Can someone describe coilrampup again? 35ms sound huge. I think on my machine the flippers are faster with the up and down movement together...

 

https://github.com/c...ki/VP10-Physics



#11 Knorr

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 07:52 PM

 

Can someone describe coilrampup again? 35ms sound huge. I think on my machine the flippers are faster with the up and down movement together...

 

https://github.com/c...ki/VP10-Physics

 

Thanks, i know this site. I wanted more some thought why someone would choose such a high delay.

For me this setting means that the flipper never reaches the full speed/force..., doesn´t make much sense...



#12 gtxjoe

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 09:27 PM

From what I think I see in the code 

What you will get though is varying torque applied to the flipper while it travels from start to end position.  Whether the flipper will reach full force depends on several factors, amount of angle rotation, flipper strength setting and coil ramp up setting.  True if angle of rotation is too low, or flipper strength is too high or coil ramp up is too high, then yes, the flipper will not achieve full speed.    I have no idea how long it takes for a flipper to rotate fully on a real pinball machine.  Does the real pinball machine flipper achieve the full force of the solenoid being used?  I have no idea on this either :)

 

Strength value is the maximum torque that the flipper can achieve.

CoilRampUp is a value used to vary the torque value applied to the flipper over time.  

It looks like the physics calculation is done in 10 msec steps.  

 

The torque value is incremented every 10 msec by this value, Strength/CoilRampup, until the maximum specified strength is reached, so:

- If Strength is 2100 and CoilRampUp is 3

- First 10 msec, torque applied is 2100/3 =700

- Next 10 msec torque is increased by that value, so currentValue + 2100/3 = 1400

- Next 10 msec torque is increased again by that value, so currentValue +  2100/3 = 2100

- If the flipper is still rotating, it remains at the max value of 2100

 

So..  If it takes less than 30 msec (maybe it's less than 20 msec) for the flipper to rotate to end you end up with a flipper strength of 700 then 1400 and its never get to full force of 2100

 

If the flipper takes less than 10 msec, then yeah using Strength of 700 and CoilRampUp of 0, would behave the same as using Strength/CoilRampUp values of 1400/2 or 2100/3 or 2800/4...

 

If you set CoilRampUp to 0, then torque is set immediately to the Strength value, 2100 in this example

Edited by gtxjoe, 29 December 2015 - 09:33 PM.


#13 zany

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 11:30 PM

Great....i will look into this, the next comming days! :)
I'm really picky when it comes to the physics.

I mostly prefer rather low friction, else(with high friction) i VPX often gives some un-natural spin backs, that i rarely see on the 15 real machines i play on at our pin club.
Of course..it is a combination of other settings ie. slope, and also the element itself.

All VP versions...vp9.9+, Physmod5 and VPX are WAY better then all other pin sims out there, but doing this togeher, can make VPX even better...hopefully PERFECT! :D



#14 jawdax

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 11:45 PM

I do not quite understand how to configure this, but their work is very good. anyway in most tables with the physical they are very bad and this makes me prefer vp9.9 again. as I can do to make it behave similar to vp9.9, and that the ball does not make unrealistic bends or acceleration?

#15 PinballShawn

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 03:34 AM


I mostly prefer rather low friction, else(with high friction) i VPX often gives some un-natural spin backs, that i rarely see on the 15 real machines i play on at our pin club.
Of course..it is a combination of other settings ie. slope, and also the element itself.

 

Correct. The amount of friction would be determined by who maintains the machine. I own 70 real pinball machine, and have owned hundreds of them, my games are always polished and waxed, there is no different friction 'feel' from my EM's to my modern Stern machines. The games I have been playing on VPX have an unnatural backspin. The friction on these tables need lowered quite a bit, the backspin itself is correct but the PF's have too much bite in them. 



#16 zany

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 03:42 AM

That is the exact feeling i get...and i also lower the friction pretty much when playing around with that setting.....ie. if it is set to 0,04...i can start to set it to 0,008, as a start!



#17 Ben Logan

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 03:53 AM

When I first experienced backspin in VP10 I was pretty impressed by it. I still am. But, I feel that because it's novel, some tables may be set to overdo it just a bit. Same with ball biting into the table. I like how the ball feels weightier in VP10, but if I were to criticize, I'd say that in the interest of avoiding floatiness we're sometimes erring on the side of too much "magnetic feeling" pull toward the center drain.

That said, VPX is making definitive improvements to already "best in the business" physics in my opinion.

#18 freneticamnesic

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 03:57 AM

It really is a balance between all objects. You can make .0035 (omg) _feel_ similar to .08 or .1 by changing the settings of all other objects, but the difference is spin. I feel better with .08-.1 pf friction after finally trying it and adjusting everything accordingly. But with that it really takes a lot more to fine tune the flippers to hit the shots. With a lower pf friction, the flippers are so much more forgiving. It really takes fine, minute adjustments to the flipper friction and angle to hit the shots as designed...



#19 PinballShawn

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 04:27 AM

When I first experienced backspin in VP10 I was pretty impressed by it. I still am. But, I feel that because it's novel, some tables may be set to overdo it just a bit. Same with ball biting into the table. I like how the ball feels weightier in VP10, but if I were to criticize, I'd say that in the interest of avoiding floatiness we're sometimes erring on the side of too much "magnetic feeling" pull toward the center drain.

That said, VPX is making definitive improvements to already "best in the business" physics in my opinion.

I'm seeing it all over the map right now and I understand it. Like you said, it's novel so it's being exaggerated. Same with some of the lighting, these massive blooms and lens flairs are cool, but some are overdone quite a bit right now. Same as 9.9 was at first, so much lens flairing it looked like Close Encounters of the Third Kind (you have to be old to get that reference). I think things will smoothen out very soon.



#20 BorgDog

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 06:06 AM

It really is a balance between all objects. You can make .0035 (omg) _feel_ similar to .08 or .1 by changing the settings of all other objects, but the difference is spin. I feel better with .08-.1 pf friction after finally trying it and adjusting everything accordingly. But with that it really takes a lot more to fine tune the flippers to hit the shots. With a lower pf friction, the flippers are so much more forgiving. It really takes fine, minute adjustments to the flipper friction and angle to hit the shots as designed...

 

I spent most of today playing with the settings starting with what was recommended in the text file for both Gottlieb's 1971 Star Trek and 1977 Gemini.  I could not figure out how to get an em to play like an em with that high of pf friction, and ended up at .035 for best feel, anything over .05 just provided to much drag on the lower slope, and raising the slope to compensate made it all too fast downward.  if someone can come up with a set of parameters that works on the em's I am open to changing anything I have.  

 

@fren  maybe you can play with/finish up your Fast Draw table, you do some great things and I believe you used to have a real one of those?  the last version I have of the vpx fast draw seem to play much to fast to me.