59 replies to this topic

[Les73gTx]

Looking for this in VP 9.x  as the actual table is awesome to play and I am a Big fan of the Movies

 

 

http://www.ipdb.org/...ine.cgi?id=5682

 

 Or did I read somewhere one late night that there is a few years we have to wait for the Visual tables because of copy rights?

 

[Slydog43]

nope, but there is a FP version of the table and it plays very good for a FP table.

[Les73gTx]

sorry I was excited to see if it was going to happen .... I have found the other post explaining why no new stern games

 

http://www.pinballni...read.php?t=5864

[Pin-Pete]

Because of S.A.M system,which Stern is still using.After they quit with S.A.M we have to wait three more years to emulate S.A.M system tables.That's the deal with Stern.

[mountaingamer]

OOF......I thought is was 3yrs after the table was released. So what's the deal with JJP???

[TheMcD]

OOF......I thought is was 3yrs after the table was released. So what's the deal with JJP???

 

The rule changed after VPM was forced to go open-source - that made it impossible to keep certain ROMs "under wraps" for the prerequisite three years, since anybody could just compile their own version with the lock removed - after all, the emulation base for the SAM system is there. I've heard that STERN is phasing out the SAM system, but I'm not sure if they're really replacing it or just updating it. As for a ROM-less recreation, the reason those aren't made is because it's simply too much work as compared to recreating something that has a ROM readily available, and with so many tables still needing a VP9 version, we won't be running out any time soon.

 

As for JJP, I don't think anybody's even really gone public about anything regarding emulation of their system. There might be something going on backstage, I can't know for sure.

[DStruct]

I believe Jack has expressed a wish to not be emulated.

[mountaingamer]

I'm sure Gary isn't excited about it either

[Noah Fentz]

I believe Jack has expressed a wish to not be emulated.

I asked him personally, and he said absolutely not.

There's a bit more to it than that, but I'm not sure what I'm at liberty to say.

He was very adamant and very firm about it.

[Aaron James]

This topic never gets old...

[007]

I can easily live without recreations of Stern's cookie cutter tables, and JJP's pinball for little girls with braids. 

 

But seriously, there are thousands of games available, why does it have to be the latest?

Edited by 007, 13 October 2013 - 08:01 AM.

[Nemo]

Well you have to agree with Gary and Jack, you see, they had to PAY people to write code,

think stuff up, and making a new pin a reality. Development of a new pin and in jack's case

starting a whole new company, doesn't come cheap.

 

So yeah, they WILL have reservations towards any VP release based on one of their 

newer table's, that's just plain logic. ( i use "reservations" lightly, you would rather see the end of

VP as an open platform, their lawyers will have a field day with it for sure !)  

 

Now if a model would be licensed to say: Farsight, that would be more fair, the people who made

the actual pin would get paid for the effort they put in.

 

I often realize it myself whenever i play a pin on VP that we are LUCKY that we're able to do so, 

some of these titles DO HAVE a copyright still on them. Sure, they are "old" pin's but still some

guys out there own the rights for it and are not putting a ban on our hobby.

 

Sure i WANT those new and shiny tables emulated on my cab, but the pinball industry is in a

delicate state, they deserve our respect and gratitude and maybe my money as soon as they

figured out they could make more money by also going digital ! 

[DStruct]

That's what I thought.

I believe Jack has expressed a wish to not be emulated.

I asked him personally, and he said absolutely not.

There's a bit more to it than that, but I'm not sure what I'm at liberty to say.

He was very adamant and very firm about it.

[MTPPC]

This whole topic is a bunch of BS. Everyone who trades in emulation is in violation of trademark or copyright. The idea of a couple of representatives negotiating agreement with "Jack and Gary" is laughable. The idea that "Jack and Gary" see emulation as a threat is totally untrue. I asked Stern's marketing manager at CES2013 what they thought about emulation and he said they saw it as a "gateway to the real thing". If "Jack and Gary" see pinmame as something that decreases their IP's value, then they are wrong. If they see emulation as a an alternative to the real thing, then they don't understand the value of the real thing. Emulation does nothing but provide an interactive commercial advertising for their unique products for free. Do you think General Motors would be mad if there were opensource racing simulators of all their current production cars that an enthusiastic community developed and promoted for free? There's just something wrong with the entire MAME scene because the masters of it are afraid of punitive (and wrongful) litigation.

 

But none of that really matters anyway. They release their code for free. They do nothing to protect it and by law that means that ALL use of it is fair (in the legal sense of the term). Table IP owners have a right to a royalty if someone else profits from their IP. They also have a right to damages if someone damages them in their market. Neither of these things are taking place.

 

I expect all the Stern SAM VP tables to be available shortly.

[bendango46]

This whole topic is a bunch of BS. Everyone who trades in emulation is in violation of trademark or copyright. The idea of a couple of representatives negotiating agreement with "Jack and Gary" is laughable. The idea that "Jack and Gary" see emulation as a threat is totally untrue. I asked Stern's marketing manager at CES2013 what they thought about emulation and he said they saw it as a "gateway to the real thing". If "Jack and Gary" see pinmame as something that decreases their IP's value, then they are wrong. If they see emulation as a an alternative to the real thing, then they don't understand the value of the real thing. Emulation does nothing but provide an interactive commercial advertising for their unique products for free. Do you think General Motors would be mad if there were opensource racing simulators of all their current production cars that an enthusiastic community developed and promoted for free? There's just something wrong with the entire MAME scene because the masters of it are afraid of punitive (and wrongful) litigation.

 

But none of that really matters anyway. They release their code for free. They do nothing to protect it and by law that means that ALL use of it is fair (in the legal sense of the term). Table IP owners have a right to a royalty if someone else profits from their IP. They also have a right to damages if someone damages them in their market. Neither of these things are taking place.

 

I expect all the Stern SAM VP tables to be available shortly.

I couldnt agree more

[TheMcD]

This whole topic is a bunch of BS. Everyone who trades in emulation is in violation of trademark or copyright. The idea of a couple of representatives negotiating agreement with "Jack and Gary" is laughable. The idea that "Jack and Gary" see emulation as a threat is totally untrue. I asked Stern's marketing manager at CES2013 what they thought about emulation and he said they saw it as a "gateway to the real thing". If "Jack and Gary" see pinmame as something that decreases their IP's value, then they are wrong. If they see emulation as a an alternative to the real thing, then they don't understand the value of the real thing. Emulation does nothing but provide an interactive commercial advertising for their unique products for free. Do you think General Motors would be mad if there were opensource racing simulators of all their current production cars that an enthusiastic community developed and promoted for free? There's just something wrong with the entire MAME scene because the masters of it are afraid of punitive (and wrongful) litigation.

 

But none of that really matters anyway. They release their code for free. They do nothing to protect it and by law that means that ALL use of it is fair (in the legal sense of the term). Table IP owners have a right to a royalty if someone else profits from their IP. They also have a right to damages if someone damages them in their market. Neither of these things are taking place.

 

I expect all the Stern SAM VP tables to be available shortly.

 

I couldn't disagree more.

 

This is all fine and dandy, mate, but it doesn't change that "Gary and Jack" are the people in charge when it comes to declaring what goes with their code, because they're the owners of their respective businesses and therefore their IPs. All these arguments about whether or not emulation harms the market have been made dozens of times, but in the end it doesn't matter one bit unless you're going to personally head over to STERN HQ and work out a hard agreement, preferably with a contract, that allows us to emulate the SAM system.

 

They do nothing to protect it? Gottlieb disagrees: http://ipdb.org/gottlieb_cease.html

 

They're very well within their rights to disagree with our usage of their creations and are very well within their rights to take legal action as well, and as an operator of a website, you're always better off taking the safe route and not pissing off the people that can very well cause you a major headache and financial harm through legal action, regardless of the actual outcome. A line has been drawn before, and if that line is crossed, it might just very well be akin to the self-destruction of this site. It doesn't matter that it's "fair use" (and given that there's a decent amount of money involved in the virtual pinball scene, the courts might very well decide differently), the point is to prevent the lawsuit in the first place.

[007]

Well spoken, McD

[DStruct]

To play devil's advocate:

 

When it comes to copyright and trademark protection, a company, in order to prosecute future infringement, must show a consistency in their policy of policing prior infringement.

 

Simply put, as a company, if you knowingly allow your trademarks and copyrights to be used previously without taking action, you lose most of your ability to prosecute further infringement.

[Shadowsclassic]

Copyright law varies by item and is somewhat different for items dating before 1978 I believe, but basically it is 70 yeas after the death of the author or in the case of for hire works 95 hears after its publication or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first.

 

So, basically nothing in the computer world is out of copyright, unless the owner has chosen to place it in the public domain.  

 

What I think is funny is that you worry about SAM Roms that are freely downloadable on the Stern sight not even making you click a box that says "yes I am legally entitled to this ROM"  but don't worry about tables with images of Disney company characters and holdings. 

 

Disney is the most litigious company on earth and have sent Cease & Desist orders to people for having a Mickey Mouse Icon on their personal homepage.

 

IF you were truly worried about violating copyright you would only be producing & hosting  cookie cutter tables with clouds for graphics.

 

Now having got that off my chest, let me say this is Noah's site and he has the right to do what ever he wants to with it.  He does not want SAM tables supported here and that is his choice, why do we keep beating this dead horse?

[Joe]

This whole topic is a bunch of BS. Everyone who trades in emulation is in violation of trademark or copyright. The idea of a couple of representatives negotiating agreement with "Jack and Gary" is laughable. The idea that "Jack and Gary" see emulation as a threat is totally untrue. I asked Stern's marketing manager at CES2013 what they thought about emulation and he said they saw it as a "gateway to the real thing". If "Jack and Gary" see pinmame as something that decreases their IP's value, then they are wrong. If they see emulation as a an alternative to the real thing, then they don't understand the value of the real thing. Emulation does nothing but provide an interactive commercial advertising for their unique products for free. Do you think General Motors would be mad if there were opensource racing simulators of all their current production cars that an enthusiastic community developed and promoted for free? There's just something wrong with the entire MAME scene because the masters of it are afraid of punitive (and wrongful) litigation.

 

But none of that really matters anyway. They release their code for free. They do nothing to protect it and by law that means that ALL use of it is fair (in the legal sense of the term). Table IP owners have a right to a royalty if someone else profits from their IP. They also have a right to damages if someone damages them in their market. Neither of these things are taking place.

 

I expect all the Stern SAM VP tables to be available shortly.

It's an rights issues and emulation is quite some way from an real game.

 

The new hardware system should be out soon some of the test games on site do have issues that need to be worked out.