19 replies to this topic

[scott-Detroit Pinball]

I believe I have achieved true Keystone Effect while messing arounding with the new VP 9.10.
I have been experimenting with FOV values and LB values but also small inclination values as well--- which I feel actually makes a big difference

The farther back on the playscreen the narrower and deeper the playfield gets. You can see the blue border it creates.
This is on a Gilligans Island
Inclination- 16
Field of View- 30
Lay Back-- 60
on a 42 in monitor- I have my other values set as
xy- 270
x 1.4
y 1.86
x offset: -375
Y offset: 240
Keystone perspective:




Normal perspective



I have noticed that I have gotten great results with no errors on this table if
FOV-- has to be 50 or less
LB-- should be 60 or higher
Inclination-- looks best around 8, actually; but I have experimented from 1-16

by the way, I think the best perspective with an Inclination of 8, looks like this



I am wondering if some of the errors people have been getting have to do with not a large enough inclination value, when I had Gilligan Island set to 0 or 1, I could not get the Volcano to appear. 5 or larger and it popped back on the screen.

Hope this helps, I think its pretty kick ass on what the developers have Achieved.
thanks
Scott
Detroit Pinball

[cupid]

Thanks! When using layback, a Little inclination can be useful, especially on tables with higher features. I think we have not yet seen all that layback could do with higher inclination values.

Edited by cupid, 30 January 2011 - 02:24 PM.

[Rawd]

Thanks for the info. I like what you did with Gilligans Island.

[scott-Detroit Pinball]

After spending over 6 hours today tweaking to find the best possible settings:
My Goal was to-
1. Front of playfield has to have flippers with more of a top down perspective
2. open view of the In Lanes & Outlanes
3. Backof playfield should be more angled-- you should see more of a side of a back popbumper VS the top
4. Keystone effect-- narrowing the back of playfield adding depth-- objects should look smaller not bigger
5. the ball should not look like either an egg or a football.

Here are the best settings I could come up with-- and yes they look to be universal so you can add them to any game.
I regret that I was not able to accomplish all goals, well almost all , except I would like a more angled view of the back playfield.
I will say you definately want as close to 100 LB (layback as possible) but I found that I would have to lower it to get the flippers to look how I would want them.

Here are the best settings I could come up with
Incline-- 8
FOV-- 36
LB-- 80
XY-- 270 this is a FS cabinet test
X- 1.35 you may have to tweek a little per game to fill correctly (small units)
Y- 1.94 you may have to tweek a little per game to fill correctly (small units)
x- -375 ( I would recomend not to change the authors value unless neccessary)
y- 200 you may have to tweak a little per game to fill correctly

I did not encounter a ton of glitches of the 5 or so games I messed with, I had just a small graphic problem on AFRM.
Here are some snapshots, I am not saying I can do better than any of the authors of these tables and wish not to offend them. I just wanted to help out and see what I could come up with.













I did not have time to take some before pictures to compare them with.
I hope people are excited as I am with the new 9.10

thanks
Scott
Detroit Pinball

[cupid]

Nice to hear you like it.

The graphic glitch is caused by Nvidia cards scrambling textures when drawn offscreen...

either resize the table (decrease X factor) or reposition the two alien walls slight to left (two because of animation)

Cupid

[Rawd]

I redid Triple Strike with a bit of inclination as you suggested, and copied your values. I really don't like that the plunger lane is no longer perpendicular with the edge of the monitor. I DO like the fact that the ball is round again.

Inclination: 8
FOV: 36
Layback: 80
Xscale: 1.45
Yscale: 1.95
X offset: -395
Y offset: 50

[lettuce]

Nice work, defo gives it a more 3d feel using these settings, well thats what it looks like from the screen shots!??. Is there a way to change the colour of the wall that appears either side of the table?

[Rawd]

Nice work, defo gives it a more 3d feel using these settings, well thats what it looks like from the screen shots!??

Yes, the posts now slightly angle out, instead of being straight up and down, and the 3D effect also comes from being able to see the sides of the walls (instead of straight top-down view)

Is there a way to change the colour of the wall that appears either side of the table?

If you click on the wall in the editor, you can change the top and side colours.


Edit:

Just when I thought most of the Pincab work was coming to an end. Time to go through all of my tables again.

I think I can get used to the non-perpendicular plunger lane.

Edited by Rawd, 31 January 2011 - 12:18 AM.

[scott-Detroit Pinball]

It also looks like (to me at least) that FS table authors could immediately convert their creation over to 4:3 with just changing some values....

I just took the latest funhouse--




Values I used were:
Inclination: 40
FOV: 50
LB: 45
x: 1.1
y: 1.8
xy offset & rotation would have to be changed to what would meet 4:3 standards, I had no idea because I would doing a test on a fullsize cabinet... rotation 180 instead of 270?? etc

Here is a FS normal view



Here is FS- with keystone values using 10/40/80



Hope this might save some table authors some time and be beneficial for both FS fans and 4:3 fans,
curious to know if this works out & or looks good to other peoples perspective.

thanks
scott
Detroit Pinball





sorry here is a straight up FS to 4:3 Pic...

[Rawd]

sorry here is a straight up FS to 4:3 Pic...

Something is just not right. Is this running 4:3.. but vertical on the screen? Rudy's head is much too tall and distorted, and it looks squished and dis-proportionate throughout.

[jpsalas]

In the FS versions I made, I had to make very large/high objects (like Rudy) so they didn't look to flat or too low. The layback feature doesn't need those over sized objects, this is why they look so strange. If you take the 4:3 version, rotate it and use the layback feature you'll see they look much better. (I repeat: the FS objetcs of my tables are too high to compensate so they won't look good when using the layback feature).

JP

[scott-Detroit Pinball]

sorry here is a straight up FS to 4:3 Pic...

Something is just not right. Is this running 4:3.. but vertical on the screen? Rudy's head is much too tall and distorted, and it looks squished and dis-proportionate throughout.

Rawd, you are correct, Rudy's head is way out of wack, I was messing around with some values on my FS Cabinet Monitor to see what I could achieve. I do not like playing desktop tables and was just thinking that someone might want to test it on their desktop monitor, of course changeing the xy rotation to 0 and some other values x and y offset accordingly.

I am not a table author, and I was under the impression it is a pain for authors to do additional tables in different perspectives, which I just got off the phone with Noah and he said its no big deal once one table is made; so I dont think this is going to help anyone but may be of interest what different LB FOV and inclination settings can do.

[Rawd]

It's good to mess around with the editor, and the layback feature is definitely fun to experiment with. Keep playing around, and before you know it, you'll be making tables yourself.

In the FS versions I made, I had to make very large/high objects (like Rudy) so they didn't look to flat or too low. The layback feature doesn't need those over sized objects, this is why they look so strange. If you take the 4:3 version, rotate it and use the layback feature you'll see they look much better. (I repeat: the FS objetcs of my tables are too high to compensate so they won't look good when using the layback feature).

JP

Good to know JP. What are your plans regarding this? I couldn't imagine having to think about you going through your huge collection of releases and updating them once again.

Edited by Rawd, 01 February 2011 - 05:06 AM.

[kruge99]

That's good news JP! that means there will be fewer modifications and/or differences between 4x3 desktop tables and FS tables!!


Best Regards,
Todd.

[jpsalas]

Most of my tables will be very easy to update with alpha ramps. It will be a matter of changing a few graphics and making some changes to a few properties. But first I have plenty of tables to do. I waiting for the new/updated VP9.10 (9.11 ? ) to test a few tables and release them. There is no point just now because they aren't playable with the current VP9.10, so it is better to wait

[rehab]

Most of my tables will be very easy to update with alpha ramps. It will be a matter of changing a few graphics and making some changes to a few properties. But first I have plenty of tables to do. I waiting for the new/updated VP9.10 (9.11 ? ) to test a few tables and release them. There is no point just now because they aren't playable with the current VP9.10, so it is better to wait

[gStAv]

Yeayii! Great news there JP!

[lio]

! nice ! this is what i pictured it should look like on a cab!

[Neo]

I apologize if this is a dumb question, but could someone please explain what the"Keystone Effect" is? I am not familiar with the term.

[scott-Detroit Pinball]

I apologize if this is a dumb question, but could someone please explain what the"Keystone Effect" is? I am not familiar with the term.

I dont know if this is a 100% correct definition, but I would describe it like this:
Keystone effect-- What you should notice (like real life playfields) as you look at a playfield the farther back you go on the playfield, the playfield should appear (very noticebly) that it is getting narrower and objects smaller the farther back you see--- Also the farther back of the playfield, you should notice that there is a definate difference in overall depth.
Lastly as you scan a table from front to back you should see things from more of a top down perspective in front of the table (ie apron & flippers) and as you move towards the back of a playfield you should see more of a side shot of objects ( ie popbumpers, if they are located in the back).

In the newest version of 9.1X you can finally simulate this effect, it gives tables a more life like, 3 dimensional effect=realism.

9.9 and older you could not simulate this effect, great table athurs did a pretty good job, but no wear near what they can do now with 9.1X. Good example, If you look at Pacdude's version of Flash Gordon, some of the objects in the back of the playfield are bigger than objects that are placed in the front of the table. Also the back objects are top down view but the front objects are a more side view. It makes the table look flat and not realistic at all on how you view/ play an actual table. Unrealistic appearance

I have been collecting pinball machines for more than 10 years and noticed this right away when I started getting into Visual Pinball. Thats why I thought 9.1X is a very Nice Step Forward.

Good Luck
Scott
Detroit Pinball