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The VP 10.2 beta thread

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#1261 BorgDog

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 05:50 PM

If I'm understanding things right on sounds/music we have two choices:

 

  1. have music in separate files then use the playmusic command, advantages can use mp3 for smaller file size, disadvantages very limited control beyond start stop and set volume at start
  2. import wav files into vp itself then use playsound command, advantages more control of sound including on the fly frequency (volume?) control, disadvantages wav files would be huge if doing a selection of full songs.

Is there any way to combine those two things?  I think simplest from user/builder perspective would be to be able to import mp3 files and have all the playsound controls available. My guess is there is a reason this has not been done but if there would be some way to upgrade this feature in a new vp that would be great.  I'm thinking of cases like in Metallica etc where music is playing and when it counts end of ball bonus it lowers the volume on the playing music then raises it back up again, from what I understand this can't be done currently in vp without importing wav files which would make the tables huge.  Along with this it would be nice if we could also specify individually where the music/sound played from, backglass or mechanical/cab.

 

Thanks.



#1262 sliderpoint

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 05:52 PM

Moving to DX11 or 12 as pointed out would be yet another huge effort that would not show immediate benefits though, as then we should also get away from the pre-rendering of static objects, etcetc. and then would have to change the way stuff is rendered dramatically as the new DXs put much more work and responsibility into the programmers hands, which is good and bad.

The only immediate benefit i could see coming from that would be that we could have HDR TV support, which is not possible in DX9.



Understanding that it is a large effort is why it seems like now would be a good time. As many people mentioned, we are very happy with VP10.2 and would be content to use that for a while while the more complicated work could be worked on 'behind the scenes'.

-Mike

#1263 toxie

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 06:00 PM

 

Moving to DX11 or 12 as pointed out would be yet another huge effort that would not show immediate benefits though, as then we should also get away from the pre-rendering of static objects, etcetc. and then would have to change the way stuff is rendered dramatically as the new DXs put much more work and responsibility into the programmers hands, which is good and bad.

I've already been trying to take steps to replace old high poly (static) parts with lower poly parts that could be rendered dynamic.  The problem is, we simply aren't going to be crossing that bridge until we come to it so to speak.  If we want people to get away from using static rendering, the simplest way would be to take that leap and get rid of static rendering.  As it is now, we suffer the drawbacks of not being fully dynamic, but the advantage being we get to use high poly static items with no real impact on performance, no one is going to stop utilising that advantage while it's still present.  When people start seeing the advantages of a dynamic environment and the drawbacks of using all these high poly items in that environment, attitudes will shift quickly I can assure you.

 

The other thing is, making the leap to dx11 or 12, we'd have access to a lot more shaders and we could likely utilise more mapping options like cavity map, light map, shadow map, occlusion map, displacement map.  The big one has been normal maps, they are totally key to getting low poly objects to look highly detailed in a dynamic environment.  The shaders, in combination with good maps can make a low poly model look fantastic, just see any of my more recent models on sketchfab and try enabling lit wireframe mode to see how much the maps are actually cheating and giving the illusion of detailed geometry that just isn't there in the optimised model.

https://sketchfab.com/dark0verseer

See the X-Files models or TWD model to see what I mean.  Sketchfab is using shaders similar to what you see in modern gaming engines, albeit optimised for the web.

 

 

I agree on most of your arguments, but the thing is that most of what you mention is also possible in DX9 already.

 

The engine first would need to be optimized anyway, no matter if targeting DX9 or 10,11,12 or whatever, as for example all similar objects are not combined into packets yet internally and so on, which is bad for performance as the driver usually gets small packages of work instead of huge chunks (that keep the GPU better busy).

 

The maps you mention are all also all possible in DX9 except for displacement. The reason why we did not include a much mightier material model and more/different input maps is that people were already confused like hell with what we offered with VPX and it took a lot of time for most people to catch up on that. Even normal maps are rarely used in tables.

 

I'll also most likely will not have as much time on my hands the next year as i had the last two years, so doing a revamp of the engine again will most likely have to wait, unless somebody else wants to tackle this.

 

But at least trying to have a real dynamic rendering, with movable camera and dynamic lighting, that would be ace IMHO. And i'd love to do the dynamic lighting part especially. :)


If I'm understanding things right on sounds/music we have two choices:

 

  1. have music in separate files then use the playmusic command, advantages can use mp3 for smaller file size, disadvantages very limited control beyond start stop and set volume at start
  2. import wav files into vp itself then use playsound command, advantages more control of sound including on the fly frequency (volume?) control, disadvantages wav files would be huge if doing a selection of full songs.

Is there any way to combine those two things?  I think simplest from user/builder perspective would be to be able to import mp3 files and have all the playsound controls available. My guess is there is a reason this has not been done but if there would be some way to upgrade this feature in a new vp that would be great.  I'm thinking of cases like in Metallica etc where music is playing and when it counts end of ball bonus it lowers the volume on the playing music then raises it back up again, from what I understand this can't be done currently in vp without importing wav files which would make the tables huge.  Along with this it would be nice if we could also specify individually where the music/sound played from, backglass or mechanical/cab.

 

This is one of the big things on my todo list next (hopefully).

The plan is to have the same code/library (e.g. BASS) for music and soundfx, and to have the files all included in the table, with all possible sound formats that the library can offer.

This way one also does not need to use wavs anymore (e.g. smaller table size).

Its not that much of work, but more like fiddling with all the nasty details and extending the sound commands to something more useful for the authors.



#1264 dark

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 06:35 PM

Yes I understand Toxie, but even if we start taking steps to go full dynamic within the 10.3 beta that will better prepare us for the leap to DX11/12.

 

Okay so not a lot of people utilise normal maps, but also it could be argued not a lot of people 3D model to begin with, so I'm not so sure excluding these options(maps) is of any benefit.  I suppose they would take some considerable work to implement and with pretty much only me and maybe 2-5 other people really utilising them I can see why the prospect might not have seemed so attractive.  The displace maps and cavity maps especially can really help give the illusion of higher detail geometry.  These other maps aren't totally necessary but would enhance the effect we are already seeing with normal maps.  I still would like to see some kind of slider or input value we could use for normal maps to tweak the look in VP a bit more but I'm just happy we have them at all.  I'm pretty much utilising normal maps for every high detail model I do, and I think the models that do use normal maps, will end up looking that much better when the normal map is dictating how that dynamic lighting we've all been talking about will actually hit and wrap itself on objects.



#1265 allknowing2012

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 06:53 PM

How about more options for sound & video - right now we have .wav files in the manager and mp3 outside. Why not a bit more flexible for within and outside the table? And video - ability to play avi files.

Can a DMD be brought in-house rather then ultradmd? Thinking more for original tables as we pretty much hit the big chunk of rom based tables.


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#1266 fuzzel

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 07:38 PM

Yes I understand Toxie, but even if we start taking steps to go full dynamic within the 10.3 beta that will better prepare us for the leap to DX11/12.

 

Okay so not a lot of people utilise normal maps, but also it could be argued not a lot of people 3D model to begin with, so I'm not so sure excluding these options(maps) is of any benefit.  I suppose they would take some considerable work to implement and with pretty much only me and maybe 2-5 other people really utilising them I can see why the prospect might not have seemed so attractive.  The displace maps and cavity maps especially can really help give the illusion of higher detail geometry.  These other maps aren't totally necessary but would enhance the effect we are already seeing with normal maps.  I still would like to see some kind of slider or input value we could use for normal maps to tweak the look in VP a bit more but I'm just happy we have them at all.  I'm pretty much utilising normal maps for every high detail model I do, and I think the models that do use normal maps, will end up looking that much better when the normal map is dictating how that dynamic lighting we've all been talking about will actually hit and wrap itself on objects.

We can't go full dynamic in 10.3 because if we would remove the static rendering all pre 10.3 tables would be unplayable and we hadn't any backwards compatibility to all 10.x tables anymore. I think we should start full dynamic with VP11 and drop support for 10.x tables the same way we did with VP9 tables in VPX. Loading is possible but playing them won't work anymore. I guess we have to do some more steps until we can pull the plug with static rendering. First we should have to find an alternative to the element property pane that is now used in the editor. We added so many options that it gets really complicated to place new options to the properties. The problem with that is that VP uses pure win32 GUI programming which is more than horrible but switching to something better (like Qt for example) would mean to rewrite the complete editor. I don't have a solution for the old fashioned editor interface at the moment but we should really clean up or rework some parts of the UI until we focus on ground breaking options.



#1267 sliderpoint

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 07:54 PM

How about more options for sound & video - right now we have .wav files in the manager and mp3 outside. Why not a bit more flexible for within and outside the table? And video - ability to play avi files.
Can a DMD be brought in-house rather then ultradmd? Thinking more for original tables as we pretty much hit the big chunk of rom based tables.


The audio is what BorgDog just asked about a few posts up.

The video is an interesting idea as well as a built in DMD type 'textbox'. JP's stuff is cool, but seems complicated to my little brain.

-Mike

#1268 toxie

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:00 PM

The builtin DMD can already be driven with user content, its not bound to just act like a PinMAME display. One can throw any DMD size with brightness levels 0..100 or RGB colors at it.

Just doing the content then for this is hard though, but i also don't thing that VP should become an animation editor.



#1269 bent98

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 09:32 PM

The reason we do not have better/faster AA yet is that we have this mixture of static and dynamic object rendering which does not work with the faster AA methods.
The only thing we could add is another postprocess AA, so instead of FXAA have something similar/newer.


Can you please please please add this in 10.3? I really hate those damn jaggies!

#1270 dark

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 09:50 PM

 

The reason we do not have better/faster AA yet is that we have this mixture of static and dynamic object rendering which does not work with the faster AA methods.
The only thing we could add is another postprocess AA, so instead of FXAA have something similar/newer.


Can you please please please add this in 10.3? I really hate those damn jaggies!

 

As fuzzel stated, removing static rendering will break backwards compatibility and is likely best kept for a VP11 build.  :(



#1271 bent98

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 11:48 PM

Toxie said he could add this.

#1272 toxie

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 01:23 AM

some better postprocessing AA, yes.



#1273 bent98

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 01:57 AM

some better postprocessing AA, yes.


Woot!

Edited by bent98, 29 December 2016 - 01:58 AM.


#1274 eispic

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 05:32 PM

Hey,

I 'm new here and looking for help with Visual Pinball 10.2.1 for the best settings
- Audio Options
- Editor Options
- Keys, Nudge and DOF
- Security Options
- Video Options
- Physics Options

Or an tuturial or any screen shots.

I have a NVIDIA GTX 770 Card and one Monitor 16:9 from Asus.

Who can help me?


Edited by eispic, 30 December 2016 - 05:33 PM.


#1275 fuzzel

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 06:04 PM

Hey,

I 'm new here and looking for help with Visual Pinball 10.2.1 for the best settings
- Audio Options
- Editor Options
- Keys, Nudge and DOF
- Security Options
- Video Options
- Physics Options

Or an tuturial or any screen shots.

I have a NVIDIA GTX 770 Card and one Monitor 16:9 from Asus.

Who can help me?

Even if this thread is outdated because VP10.2 is released now you should start an own thread here: http://www.vpforums....hp?showforum=24



#1276 ICPjuggla

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 10:13 PM

It would be a big help if the red fall off circle on lights would be visible both when selected/moving control points and not selected. I was hoping that would of been fixed in VP10.2, I though it was on your guys list to fix as I've seen it talked about before. It would be a really big help.

Thx
-ICP

Edited by ICPjuggla, 31 December 2016 - 01:33 AM.

cosmicgunfight-sig2.png breakshot-sig-small3.png atlantis-sig-small.png mousinaround-sig6.png hurricane-sig16.png sc-badge1.png lw-sig.png embryon-logo0.png icp-3.png apollo13_badge(1).png whirlwind_badge0.png playboy_badge0.png oxo1.png raven_logo.png rambo_logo4.png


#1277 toxie

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 11:21 AM

Maybe Fuzzel can do that? I do not know exactly what you mean.

 

btw: I just looked at the amount of VPX tables on my setup, and it crossed the 3 0 0 table range in the last days! (might be some dupes, MODs, unfinished ones, etc, but whatever :))

And that all within a SINGLE YEAR! You guys rock!



#1278 fuzzel

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 11:22 AM

Sure I'll take a look. And a happy New year to all of you :)

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#1279 eispic

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 11:57 AM

 

Hey,

I 'm new here and looking for help with Visual Pinball 10.2.1 for the best settings
- Audio Options
- Editor Options
- Keys, Nudge and DOF
- Security Options
- Video Options
- Physics Options

Or an tuturial or any screen shots.

I have a NVIDIA GTX 770 Card and one Monitor 16:9 from Asus.

Who can help me?

Even if this thread is outdated because VP10.2 is released now you should start an own thread here: http://www.vpforums....hp?showforum=24

 

Thanks. I start the Thread here   http://www.vpforums....showtopic=36691



#1280 GInsonic

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 06:44 PM

Many thanks for your great work guys and a happy new year to all of you !





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