101 replies to this topic

[Liverslapper]

I have to go with a real solid state pinball machine. Yes there might be some down time fixing and keeping it maintained, but its worth it. There is just something more unique about the real thing compared to a emulated one. I compare it to listening to a vinyl record and a CD. The quality would be obviously superior with the CD but there is something rewarding and truely unique about listening to a record that gives you a different experience. I love it.

Like cd and vinyl, its good to have both.
Even one of each.

I agree, its good to have both

[maceman]

I picked both Vp/Fp Machine & Real Machine.

If money were no object, I wouldn't decide...I would just get both!

Actually, If money were no object, I would have a room full of real machines

[rob046]

For me, once you go "real" its hard to treat pc software as being very close to the real thing. I just can't trick my brain into really buying into FS & cabs as much as a lot of people here can. That said, I still think its a very cool novelty, but of course can never replace the real thing. I'm glad so many people are into cabs & since its another outlet for people to technically be getting into pinball, I"m all for it. Just not everybody's cup of tea.
I have 4 great pins in my basement, & sure I'd take a cab for the right price, but I can't imagine ever going into my basement & passing up real pinball to play the cab. Again to me it would be more of a novelty, cool to have but wouldn't get much use out of it.

However, I'm plenty happy when I'm not in my little gameroom & have some free time to fire up VP/FP right here on my nice IPS panel dell ultrasharp 24", 1900x1200. 4:3 mode of course. I have a nice keyboard that lets me map keys very much like a real pinball.
OK, so I enjoy playing pinball on my desktop, I enjoy my real pins, so I just don't feel the need to take it any further, I'm already very content. I kinda like keeping the "real" pinball world and the "virtual" world seperate. That said, I do hope that the many people into cabs & the tech just keep improving on every aspect of cabs. I hope this is a trend that continues & gets better & better, at which point I may be forced to get a cab. But as of now, IMHO the software (VP/FP) just isn't up to snuff for me to warrant making my own cab for it.

Of course the flipper physics discussion still rages on these forums as it has since I came into the hobby 7 years ago. I like what I see with people like noah & others working to find the best settings, but the truth is that while you may be able to get settings close on certain tables, there are just too many other tables that you can't really nail down. There are also a lot of flipper tricks I do on my real pins that simply don't work in VP. I heavily use the flipper catch/cradle trick, & it simply can't be done properly in VP no matter what the settings.
But I must say that as far as flipper settings, & even the great nudge system that noah/JP/others? have implemented for VP9, things are certainly better than they were years ago. So its great to always see progress with VP. I hope it continues, I hope VP continues to get great upgrades & the bar keeps getting set higher & higher.

Honestly I'd like to see a brand new 2011 version of VP written from scratch with Pro Pinball physics & FP visuals. I know how unlikely this is. But think about it, old Randy was able to whip up this VP program over a decade ago, Black did what he did which is great considering that he kinda gave up on it shortly after release. So why not somebody program a new pinball game/editor? Truly a VP 2.0. Randy & Black did it, why not somebody from this generation?
& I don't think anybody attempting this would be at a loss for help, so many people could assist, I'd love to be part of something like that & help in whatever way I could. I wish I had the programming skills to even attempt something like that on my own, & if I did I would be on it.
& for you cabheads out there, I suspect any new pinball software could be designed from day 1 with cabs in mind which might be what is needed to really take the whole cab thing to the next level. Of course I'd hope it worked great for 4:3 as well since a ton of pinheads don't have virtual cabs.

To recap, I like the idea of cabs, I just think the software needs to get better in order to make most of the pinball world really take notice. At the same time, we do need to be wary that real pinball isn't doing well. 1 company pushing out 2 or 3 games a year at production numbers just a fraction of what they were in pinball's hayday. If people have $1k for something pinball related & end up buying a cab over a real game, that is kinda discouraging to me. The business of real games, fueled by our monies over the past 4 decades, is what has created all the great games we enjoy in VP today. Yes today we are enjoying the many games that came out during the hayday, but think 20 years from now, we aren't gonna have much to look back on in terms of real pins to recreate. Hell we may have nothing to recreate in 20 years as real pinball might be long gone. I'm all for originals but it is real pinball & the nostalgia behind it that makes people so interested in recreations. Kids today, 20 years from now are going to have virtually zero nostalgia about pinball, if they even know what pinball is. So as people aged 30+ today get older & die off, are we gonna have many people to carry the torch on this pinball thing with the passion that we have, if at all? I really don't know.
But our only hope for the future I think lies in real pinball getting more popular right now. Used or new, people buying real pins is what determines the future of pinball.

No matter how great the tech/software may get, I know it can never replace real pinball 100%. Pinball is a tangible game, & many of the great things about it are the real lamps/flashers, real art, a real steel ball whooping around the playfield, the vibration of the bumper thumps & flipper flips felt through the hands, the clank of metal & solenoids firing. & of course the wild ball theory. Computers need absolutes, they aren't too good at created unplanned chaos & calculating the infinite number of things that real physics can throw at you. The ball smacking the glass, jumping at odd times, & lots of different ball behaviors just can't fully come across in simulations. I'm also just a big fan of seeing real parts, in real life 3D, real textures & all that good stuff that can never be emulated.
I mention the purchasing of cabs possible taking away from real pinball. That could work a couple ways. I could work as I said, but my hope is that cabs ultimately end up encouraging people to want to play the real versions of their favorite emulated tables. I hope they work as an advertisement for real pinball. I hope they can get more kids interested in pinball, virtual or real, we'll take what we can get there. The more households that have a real or virutal cab, the better, I suppose.

So I'm always fighting this internal battle between the pro's & con's of virtual cabs. Though one major pro that applies to VP in general is of course being able to play tables that you may have otherwise never played or even heard about. This is what VP did for me. I always kinda liked pinball, had a few tables I was attached to growing up, & the day I found VP I of course wanted those tables, but within a short period of time seeing the hundreds of other tables that I had no idea existed really drew me into the whole pinball world & I was able to get into tables that were before my time, & love them, & discover other great more modern tables that just never happened to pass me by in life.
As a result, a few years later, my enjoyment with VP & the tables I learned about is what ultimately turned me into a real pin owner. So for me, had I not discovered VP, I'm 95% sure I would not own a pin right now. But I found it, & now I own 4 amazing games & have owned 8 so far.
I'm a part of the pinball economy & what is keeping it going. I wonder if I would be if I only owned a virtual cab. I feel like I wouldn't be contributing to the real pinball economy & that instead I'm supporting LCD monitors & such. I guess I would advise people who own a virtual cab to at least also own a real pin or two to keep real pinball alive & well, so that 20 years from now we still have new pins to emulate to put in said cabs.

[CaptBlackwood]

I'll elaborate...

I'd get this... http://virtuapin.net...;products_id=37

and dump all my VP and FP tables onto it. Maybe even try to get ProPinball, Pure Pinball, eGames Pinball, and Dream Pinball onto it.\

Sorry Sierra 3D Ultra Pinball, "Traditional Tables Only"

[chas]

<<They can be a lot of work and maintenance. Board problems, switches, lamp matrixes oh my.>>

there are alot of pinball restorations out there.
from what i have seen they have mostly 80s and 90s tables.
very few classic oldies from the 70s.
i guess parts are a problem.

is it possible to get parts like solonoids and parts in general for the older classic pins from the 70's.
anybody have some links for the classic oldies?

[rob046]

<<They can be a lot of work and maintenance. Board problems, switches, lamp matrixes oh my.>>

there are alot of pinball restorations out there.
from what i have seen they have mostly 80s and 90s tables.
very few classic oldies from the 70s.
i guess parts are a problem.

is it possible to get parts like solonoids and parts in general for the older classic pins from the 70's.
anybody have some links for the classic oldies?

Almost all pins are restorations to some extent, considering 99% of them aren't even from this century.

For sale, you do see more 80's & 90's tables. Simple reason for that. Those are more valuable. There is no money in EM's, but they are out there, & super cheap. So retail stores just don't bother much with EM's & having those take up space when they make hardly any profit.
Its kinda sad cuz a lot of EM's end up getting thrown out. I think a lot of people just don't think to look or realize just how cheap they can be had. Better yet, you can even haul them in any sedan. Furthermore, EM's are actually the easiest games to fix up & maintain if you just have a little common sense & patience.

Usually you don't need parts to repair an EM, unless of course you get an EM with the parts already missing, then you might have an issue.
But EM's use switches & coils just like SS pins do. They can easily be found online. So getting EM's to work really isn't much of a hassle. The harder to find parts would be plastics, but even those can be homemade if you can get a scan from somebody else who has the pin, which before the internet just wasn't possible.

Also EM playfields are often very easy to touchup, they don't have the complex art like SS pins do. In the future, I wouldn't be surprised if in 50 years from now that EM's hold up better over time than SS pins. When dealing with computer hardware (SS pins) that stuff has a limited lifespan. Between the cpu's, batteries, capacitors... every SS pin is on its way to a slow death. New parts are a must to keep them running. EM's don't have those types of parts with a limited lifespan. Not saying people shouldn't own SS, just saying that people shouldn't be too quick to dismiss getting an EM.

Anyhow, yeah thanks to the internet, parts for pins aren't that much of an issue.
Because of this, NOW is a GREAT time to own real pins. Thanks to the internet even somebody like me can own them & properly maintain & fix them thanks to online guides & forums like RGP. & is kinda fun to shop for parts for your pins, you can pick & choose what you want to upgrade & tweak. You even got options now, for the pins you really love, to install LED's into them. All sorts of stuff you can do.
This talk of real pins is reminding me I need to give my 4 games a little love soon, they are due for some tweaking & cleaning, & just a little attention. They get neglected a bit in the summer when I'm not spending as much free time indoors.

[faralos]

if I had a thousand dollars yeah I'd go the real pinball machine route! as nice as the cabs look for that money I would want a real one!
Sure i can play over a thousand pins on just one cab, but to be able to get my hands dirty playing (and getting shocked at times from shorts)
with a real one would be the bees knees! as for an SS vs. an EM? well it's really the money factor.
if I bought one I'd sure as heck learn to work on it no matter which type it is!
I know the SS's but the Em's while easier to work on are a little confusing!
case in point, just after I left my vending company in the late 80's I went into the home pinball repair business.
well my first customer had an older 60's bingo type of pin. man when I lifted that playfield I was so lost!
No coils anywhere no electronic anything! everything was all leaf switches and those knife contact switches.
Easier to work on? well I guess if you know what you are doing! I did not and had to admit defeat after getting zapped numerous times.
Parts though are much easier to come by since most of it was hardwired
The newer SS's while having solid state boards and being easier to work on would be much more expensive to procure the parts needed to keep them running.
But the parts are getting easier to find since home pinball machines are starting to hit mainstream.
Unfortunately the parts prices are also starting to climb due to its sudden popularity over the past few years.
so with no money to spend on my types of toys I'll stick with my desktop vp and maybe in the future I will be able to get a 'real' pin

[chas]

i played the old EMs.
they were at all the bowling alleys and arcades.
they were expensive and high cost of maintanance.
awhile back someone in the forum found an old EM at a thrift store for $50 and it worked.
what a rare sweet find.
the cheapset EM restore i found local was a Big Indian for $1495 + t, s & h.
it was maybe a 3hr+ drive.
i could have picked up my self and they would honor the warranty.
they had a C/Fantastic....sold........
it flew out the door fast.

Edited by chas, 22 June 2011 - 06:22 AM.

[Osprey101]

I own 3 pins and and EM shooter.
If money were no object, I would open an EM arcade/museum.

AIN'T NOTHIN' LIKE THE REAL THING, BABY!

[Cat]

For me i prefer the real thing as it is a learning curb when things start to go wrong with the pinball but i wish real pinball could except nvram files as my whirlwind had flat batteries replaced them and still come up with adjust failure and i'm spewing as i have lost audits and coin book keeping for the last 2years. With VP cabinet what happens when a lcd or plasma tv dies. As a real pinball will at last longer than the life of flat screen tv
Also here in Australia we seem to import all the pinball machines from Europe and the US and now the market here is flooded and prices of pinballs are started to fall Currently saving up for 1990 Rollergames if i can find one. I have owned 3 pinballs for nearly 3 years now and not much maintenance has been needed apart from whirlwind having memory issues started this week and the usual gi burning plugs problems i've had on BOP and Roadshow which caught on fire but did no damage Also i bought a 1991 hurricane reallyt cheap stripped it for parts bits of playfield where missing but still had boards and good DMD
The problem i have vp i still use 8.1 is the way the ball sometimes goes through the flipper

[Pinballgirl]

I come from the old school of EM pinball machines. I played them in my teen years well into adult and they have a special place in my heart. If money were no object I would buy a warehouse filled with EM machines as well as SS and open up an arcade. Being that I worked as an electronics tech I would like to someday hopefully own an 80's SS pinball machine just so I could work on it as needed.

VP is a great game for PC and I love all the games.

[bladexdsl]

real thing is great but a vp cab can hold multiple machines good for me since i am short on space

[pinballjohn]

The poll just needed to be more specific....'money is no object' skews the answer. Should have been 'only one or the other for x amount of time'. Just playing one pinball over and over for a year or two would be tough, I'd go for the virtual as I've done the former, and while worth it, and a blast, the same sounds, songs, patterns over and over get boring over time.

The best of both worlds for us mortals who aren't at the 'money is no object' level is one real pinball we can swap out whenever we're tired of it, and one virtual pinball to play on the side.

I'd say vp on the regular pc for that, but just this weekend, after a long haitus of staying away from vp, installed it again and flipped my new 25" monitor on its side leaning up on pillows on my computer desk. Cranked up 16:9 twilight zone, gorgar, theater of magic, circus voltaire....and it was a ---BIG--- difference from playing a table on the monitor in normal mode. Truly a quantum leap forward in the program. Wow.

So now I'm definitely going to make a semi-table at least, with 30 - 40 inch cheap plasma(viewing angle far better) for doing pinball and mame combo. Just need to figure out how to swivel/lean/tilt the monitor so it's an arcade, then a pinball.

Fun fun fun.

[T-800]

The poll just needed to be more specific....'money is no object' skews the answer. Should have been 'only one or the other for x amount of time'. Just playing one pinball over and over for a year or two would be tough, I'd go for the virtual as I've done the former, and while worth it, and a blast, the same sounds, songs, patterns over and over get boring over time.

The best of both worlds for us mortals who aren't at the 'money is no object' level is one real pinball we can swap out whenever we're tired of it, and one virtual pinball to play on the side.

I'd say vp on the regular pc for that, but just this weekend, after a long haitus of staying away from vp, installed it again and flipped my new 25" monitor on its side leaning up on pillows on my computer desk. Cranked up 16:9 twilight zone, gorgar, theater of magic, circus voltaire....and it was a ---BIG--- difference from playing a table on the monitor in normal mode. Truly a quantum leap forward in the program. Wow.

So now I'm definitely going to make a semi-table at least, with 30 - 40 inch cheap plasma(viewing angle far better) for doing pinball and mame combo. Just need to figure out how to swivel/lean/tilt the monitor so it's an arcade, then a pinball.

Fun fun fun.

FYI - you might want to avoid using a plasma for a cabinet monitor. They use actual glass in their construction that can crack over time when held flat... Plus they use a lot more energy and generate a lot more heat that would all need to be adaquately vented.

[Arcade4]

The poll just needed to be more specific....'money is no object' skews the answer. Should have been 'only one or the other for x amount of time'. Just playing one pinball over and over for a year or two would be tough, I'd go for the virtual as I've done the former, and while worth it, and a blast, the same sounds, songs, patterns over and over get boring over time.

The best of both worlds for us mortals who aren't at the 'money is no object' level is one real pinball we can swap out whenever we're tired of it, and one virtual pinball to play on the side.

I'd say vp on the regular pc for that, but just this weekend, after a long haitus of staying away from vp, installed it again and flipped my new 25" monitor on its side leaning up on pillows on my computer desk. Cranked up 16:9 twilight zone, gorgar, theater of magic, circus voltaire....and it was a ---BIG--- difference from playing a table on the monitor in normal mode. Truly a quantum leap forward in the program. Wow.

So now I'm definitely going to make a semi-table at least, with 30 - 40 inch cheap plasma(viewing angle far better) for doing pinball and mame combo. Just need to figure out how to swivel/lean/tilt the monitor so it's an arcade, then a pinball.

Fun fun fun.

FYI - you might want to avoid using a plasma for a cabinet monitor. They use actual glass in their construction that can crack over time when held flat... Plus they use a lot more energy and generate a lot more heat that would all need to be adaquately vented.

Not to mention they weigh a ton.

[wildman]

VP RULES...

[T-800]

I agree with a comment from before - maybe the survey could be tweaked a little bit - if you could only have one pinball machine for the rest of your life in your game room, would you choose to have a VP/FP cabinet with 200+ recreations on it or one real pinball machine of your choice (you have to keep that machine forever)?

I own four real machines and my digital cabinet, if I had to get rid of four I think I'd still keep the digital cabinet. The variety and incredible job the table builders have done to emulate the real thing is enough for me. Not to mention the fact that my real pinball machines require semi-monthly maintenance (dusting, cleaning, waxing, etc.), yearly thorough service, and then the random problems that require LOTS of work to fix and get working properly again (broken plastics, solenoids going bad, PCB components going out, springs and rubber replacements, bulbs burning out)...

[Osprey101]

Since this popped up again, I thought I would add something.

If I could only have 1 or the other, I would still go real. I can play vp on my computer.
I do not get bored with a machine. Either I like it, or I don't.
I have had my Old Chicago machine for well over a year now and I love it as much now as ever. Same with all my machines.

The thing with real pins is that they are very addictive. Especially the EMs. If you have the space, you get as many as you can fit. Why? Because they are CHEAP and more entertaining than just a game. They are also enjoyable to work on as I don't need a degree in electronics to do so. I enjoy the hell out of working on them. You can see how it should work and if you just spend some time with it, you will eventually work out any bugs.
Parts that are not machine specific are ridiculously cheap and 99% of the parts are still available or even being re-manufactured.
(Speaking of which, Pinball Resource will be constructing a new machine to make the mid 70's Williams, "UFO" style bumper caps that are currently not available anywhere.)
I have run across only 1 problem that I am still fighting. But the machine is still very playable (ask the Monk!).

Once you get enough, you decide the ones you will never part with; then you get a couple extras for trading purposes. At least that is my way of looking at.
I will never part with Old Chicago and probably the same with Flash, since I just ordered a new Rottendog MPU/Driver combo board. I will also hang on to my EM shooter. It's fun it's cool, it's rare, and everyone that comes over loves it.
I sold my Flying Turns machine and am sad to see it go but it was quickly replaced with Twin Win, which also has a destination other than my home arcade, but it will be replaced with something different and fun.

I can understand someone with limited space getting only 1 digi-cab. I would not do it though. I would opt for 1 REAL one. There really is no comparison between real and virtual.

REAL REAL REAL (for me)

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[Shooby Doo]

I don't own either, but can agree with Osprey on real. I was planning a virtual cab, but getting a real machine is on top of the list now.

Real pinball has a special feel that only real-life can create. How I feel when playing real pinball isn't recreated in a simulation. It's fun and I love playing virtual, but it will never have that most special aspect of pinball, what really drives me towards it (or at least what I consider the most special). I can't even say exactly what it is, I suppose it's almost esoteric.

[Osprey101]

Real pinball has a special feel that only real-life can create. How I feel when playing real pinball isn't recreated in a simulation. It's fun and I love playing virtual, but it will never have that most special aspect of pinball, what really drives me towards it (or at least what I consider the most special). I can't even say exactly what it is, I suppose it's almost esoteric.

Another reason why I love the real machines is that "esoteric" thing. It's almost spiritual.
I told my (then resisting) wife when I first started thinking about getting one, that they remind me of when I was a kid; When everything was new and amazing.
She immediately understood the thought and has not given me any crap since then.
Wait... she did start to mumble something when the wall was pretty full and I cam home with another... lol
Oh, she said no to the puck bowler though. Only because it is 11 feet long and if we ever moved... well, that would suck.


And the pinball rolls....