64 replies to this topic

[Rawd]

VP work on my cabinet, but I cannot do table with my cabinet and since I don't plan to buy a 3thd PC with a proper working video card, it is just not working.

I am not sure what you mean? It works, but it doesn't work?

No one was asking you to design for VP.... just play!


Also.. I am 100% sure that those other guys are just joking man. We all know you are not a dummy.

[destruk]

I should be getting a card like yours Steve. An FX3500 or 3700. I don't remember the exact model, but I think it could be your card's grandson or something.

[Practicedummy]

This conversation could be moot since FP may no longer be"improved" on with Black stopping with the updates. Do we know if there is going to be a new pinball development project from him? I personally wouldn't mind FP if it weren't for the crappy physics and the points weren't so freakin' small (migraines galore, and zoom doesn't increase the point circle's size).

[Steve Paradis]

I am not sure what you mean? It works, but it doesn't work?
No one was asking you to design for VP.... just play!

Playing table is a small part of the fun for me, and if you talk to any builders they will more or less say the same.
So, as I enjoy a lot building table from scratch, I guess this is why I like FP over VP, since I really cannot build table with VP.

Hope it clear the situtation.

Steve

Edited by Steve Paradis, 24 March 2010 - 04:29 PM.

[Rawd]

I am not sure what you mean? It works, but it doesn't work?
No one was asking you to design for VP.... just play!

Playing table is a small part of the fun for me, and if you talk to any builders they will say the same.
So, as I enjoy a lot building table from scratch, I guess it is fair to say that this is why I like FP over VP, since I really cannot build table with VP.

Hope it clear the situtation.

Steve

Yes, that makes much more sense.

Since your cab will run VP9, I think that you should get some tables loaded up and play for a few hours. Remember why you were attracted to the game in the first place. Both you and UncleWilly never seem to want to play the tables.

[Bob5453]

I certainly was only joking.... I have nothing but respect for Steve.

I enjoy having FP and VP users on the same forum. I like keeping up with both programs. I also like to goof off.

Cheers!

[Popotte]

...

Also.. I am 100% sure that those other guys are just joking man. We all know you are not a dummy.

The "other guy" is just our good old fellow Bob5453 and I really enjoy his humour.
Concernaing playing VP (or FP), I'm like Steve. First, no really the time (or I recreate less tables), second, it's really very pleasant to redraw (sometimes, I have to admit, you have to replace pleasant by boring) from scratch a PF and/or a BG. No third...

[Shockman]

I was just kidding too. Uncalled for though, I agree.

I won't call you 'big' anymore.

[xetal]

Hello. I have tried both.

I am new to this Virtual Pinball stuff.

 

But. I will give my opinion so far.
 

My system Specs: 5950X 16Core 32 Threads CPU, 3090 GPU.

Hardware is not an issue.

 

The VP tables are way better in my opinion. They feel good. The physics, the Impact, everything about it... the feel.

 

The Future tables though.... I have tried (just tried a few more games just now) feel stale. I don't know it just feels very very stale to me. theres no pleasant Impact. the physics feels like when someone ports a game like Super Mario Brothers from the NES to Unity or Unreal engine. Just doesnt feel right.. Doesnt feel like a pinball game.. Stale, too artificial, , No Impact... just Meh.

I would gladly delete Future Pinball from my harddrive, but I will leave it there maybe I will find something good. But so far everything I tried on FP just feels extremely stale.. meh ... i dont know. People say the graphics are better on FP, but I have to disagree I don't like the way it looks. It's too robotic, the flippers feel bad, I had zero pleasure playing anything on it. Don't get me wrong, the table and graphics look amazing, but theres something wrong with the feel.
 

 

On the other hand, every single pinball game I tried on VP is jst emotional, it works so well i am considering building myself an MDF box with a 43 inch TV, some motors / actuators for feedback, and a tilt sensor or some sort...

Truly truly truly amazing. It takes a lot to amaze me these days, but these VPX tables are WOW...

 

Everyone has a different taste of course and it has to be respected. I am speaking for myself, and how I feel. Man... WOW just WOW these VPX tables are "HOLY". And this is thanks to all the people who put the work into it and shared with us. THANKS for sharing all of this with us, and I would love to contribute.

 

 

[xenonph]

Hello. I have tried both.

I am new to this Virtual Pinball stuff.

 

But. I will give my opinion so far.
 

My system Specs: 5950X 16Core 32 Threads CPU, 3090 GPU.

Hardware is not an issue.

 

The VP tables are way better in my opinion. They feel good. The physics, the Impact, everything about it... the feel.

 

The Future tables though.... I have tried (just tried a few more games just now) feel stale. I don't know it just feels very very stale to me. theres no pleasant Impact. the physics feels like when someone ports a game like Super Mario Brothers from the NES to Unity or Unreal engine. Just doesnt feel right.. Doesnt feel like a pinball game.. Stale, too artificial, , No Impact... just Meh.

I would gladly delete Future Pinball from my harddrive, but I will leave it there maybe I will find something good. But so far everything I tried on FP just feels extremely stale.. meh ... i dont know. People say the graphics are better on FP, but I have to disagree I don't like the way it looks. It's too robotic, the flippers feel bad, I had zero pleasure playing anything on it. Don't get me wrong, the table and graphics look amazing, but theres something wrong with the feel.
 

 

On the other hand, every single pinball game I tried on VP is jst emotional, it works so well i am considering building myself an MDF box with a 43 inch TV, some motors / actuators for feedback, and a tilt sensor or some sort...

Truly truly truly amazing. It takes a lot to amaze me these days, but these VPX tables are WOW...

 

Everyone has a different taste of course and it has to be respected. I am speaking for myself, and how I feel. Man... WOW just WOW these VPX tables are "HOLY". And this is thanks to all the people who put the work into it and shared with us. THANKS for sharing all of this with us, and I would love to contribute.

 

 

Have you tried the newer BAM FizX 3.3 Future Pinball tables?

Alot has been improved including physics.

Try these FP tables out after you upgrade to newest BAM.

https://www.vpforums...cce21115602ac45

 

And here is a guide for getting those particular tables running.

https://www.vpforums...&showfile=15601

 

And here is FUTURE PINBALL AND BAM ESSENTIALS - ALL IN ONE - COMPLETE

https://pinballnirva...-complete.8159/

Edited by xenonph, 24 March 2024 - 06:01 AM.

[xetal]

 

 

Have you tried the newer BAM FizX 3.3 Future Pinball tables?

Alot has been improved including physics.

Try these FP tables out after you upgrade to newest BAM.

https://www.vpforums...cce21115602ac45

 

And here is a guide for getting those particular tables running.

https://www.vpforums...&showfile=15601

 

And here is FUTURE PINBALL AND BAM ESSENTIALS - ALL IN ONE - COMPLETE

https://pinballnirva...-complete.8159/

 

 

​Thanks so much. Right now, I am runing BAM 1.5.373.0.
I am going to try the links you provided, thanks so much! I will let you know

Edited by xetal, 24 March 2024 - 07:16 AM.

[xetal]

@

xenonph

 

Hello. Nice ! It seems like the FizX 3.3 tables are much better than the older ones,

I really like the alien one. Also Indiana Jones is very nice

 

 

In the editor options, weather I select Display 1 or Display 2, the game only launches on display 2 no matter what I do.

So those settings have no effect unless I use windowed mode. 
What is the best solution to run FB tables on full screen, while forcing a specific monitor?

I also tried forcing some settings with the batch file and no go.

 

REG ADD "HKCU\Software\Future Pinball\GamePlayer" /v "ArcadeMode" /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f

REG ADD "HKCU\Software\Future Pinball\GamePlayer" /v "SecondMonitorEnable" /t REG_DWORD /d 1 /f

 

REG ADD "HKCU\Software\Future Pinball\GamePlayer" /v "ArcadeMode" /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f

REG ADD "HKCU\Software\Future Pinball\GamePlayer" /v "SecondMonitorEnable" /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f

 

those registry settings have no effect weather I set SecondMonitorEnable to 0 or 1.

 

It only works the way I want if I disable said monitor on Windows display manager.

 

Thanks for the recommendation FizX 3.3 are rly nice

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fhjui]

In case of FP you must consider that its an nearly 15 years old part of software, no source code exists anymore and,  great guys like TerryRed and Rafal from ravarcade.pl with BAM , do a great job of advancing the program with tricks and "patches".

IMHO FP is more suitable with regard to em-tables.

[xenonph]

@

xenonph

 

Hello. Nice ! It seems like the FizX 3.3 tables are much better than the older ones,

I really like the alien one. Also Indiana Jones is very nice

 

 

In the editor options, weather I select Display 1 or Display 2, the game only launches on display 2 no matter what I do.

So those settings have no effect unless I use windowed mode. 
What is the best solution to run FB tables on full screen, while forcing a specific monitor?

I also tried forcing some settings with the batch file and no go.

 

REG ADD "HKCU\Software\Future Pinball\GamePlayer" /v "ArcadeMode" /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f

REG ADD "HKCU\Software\Future Pinball\GamePlayer" /v "SecondMonitorEnable" /t REG_DWORD /d 1 /f

 

REG ADD "HKCU\Software\Future Pinball\GamePlayer" /v "ArcadeMode" /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f

REG ADD "HKCU\Software\Future Pinball\GamePlayer" /v "SecondMonitorEnable" /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f

 

those registry settings have no effect weather I set SecondMonitorEnable to 0 or 1.

 

It only works the way I want if I disable said monitor on Windows display manager.

 

Thanks for the recommendation FizX 3.3 are rly nice

 

 

 

 

 

 

Check out this Future Pinball table that my friend TerryRed is working on now...

Masters of the Universe...

https://www.vpforums...781#entry522518

 

He really is pushing the limits of what is possible with Future Pinball.

Keep in mind that no roms are used in Future Pinball, so everything is hand scripted into table.

It is pretty amazing!

And it will only get better!

 

Future Pinball can do some things that VPX cannot do, and vice versa.

Yes VPX may have some advantages that Future Pinball does not, but the way the devs have been working on BAM and FizX, and constantly working to make Future Pinball better, these advantages are disappearing quickly!

In my opinion, FP and VP are both programs worth installing.

[TerryRed]

No tricks or patches or wizardy is being done.

 

The main FP app / editor is the same (and certainly shows it's age), but through many BAM updates over the years, FP has been given many many new updates and features for creators and players. Many which you won't (and may never) find on VP.

 

If VP could do all the things I can on FP, I probably wouldn't be creating on FP. It's that simple. That said, there are things VP can do (especially on 10.8) that I would love to be able to do on FP.

 

FP is no longer the same as it was... for lighting / rendering, shadows, physics (FP no longer has bad physics thanks to FizX which is basically like nFozzy physics adapted to FP), and much more. My results speak for themselves (and others who have tried them agree), and tables like MOTU CE and Silent Hill won't be possible (or made) on VP.

 

Many people make the mistake in thinking that all FP (or VP) tables are "the same". They aren't. Some people go and download FP tables from 5 to 15 years ago, and think they will be the same as a well updated VP or FP table made this year. That's like trying to run a VP8/VP9 table on VPX 10.8 (which you can't even do that) and thinking it's the same as a VPW BTK table. FP-BAM has great backwards compatibility, so there is no problem running older tables, but just like with VP, they all need to be updated properly for lighting / shadows, physics and more.

 

VP and FP each have tables the other doesn't. So there is no need for players to choose one or the other.

 

I prefer FP (as a creator) for the options it gives "me" as someone who works on original / non rom based tables. It has less limitations for the things I like to do. I also don't like to restrict myself to the limitations of what a real pin would do. I can easily update any FP table for good physics / lighting / shadows, etc much quicker than any VP conversion would take (and in some cases I would have to make compromises with a VP conversion).

 

I definitely prefer VP for rom based or recreated tables and the tables you can't get on FP. The new original tables, BTK tables and 10.8 features are fantastic.

 

Both play great on desktop, cabinet and in VR (all FP tables work completely in VR, no need to make a VR mod / update). FP's realtime lighting looks amazing in VR... especially on tables like MOTU CE and Silent Hill (both wip).

 

Try both (with updated tables) and play what you prefer. For FP start with Pinevent tables and others updated for FizX. The older FP tables won't play great (or correctly) until they are updated.

 

 

@

xenonph

 

Hello. Nice ! It seems like the FizX 3.3 tables are much better than the older ones,

I really like the alien one. Also Indiana Jones is very nice

 

 

In the editor options, weather I select Display 1 or Display 2, the game only launches on display 2 no matter what I do.

So those settings have no effect unless I use windowed mode. 
What is the best solution to run FB tables on full screen, while forcing a specific monitor?

I also tried forcing some settings with the batch file and no go.

 

REG ADD "HKCU\Software\Future Pinball\GamePlayer" /v "ArcadeMode" /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f

REG ADD "HKCU\Software\Future Pinball\GamePlayer" /v "SecondMonitorEnable" /t REG_DWORD /d 1 /f

 

REG ADD "HKCU\Software\Future Pinball\GamePlayer" /v "ArcadeMode" /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f

REG ADD "HKCU\Software\Future Pinball\GamePlayer" /v "SecondMonitorEnable" /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f

 

those registry settings have no effect weather I set SecondMonitorEnable to 0 or 1.

 

It only works the way I want if I disable said monitor on Windows display manager.

 

Thanks for the recommendation FizX 3.3 are rly nice

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's important that you have your monitors configured and arranged correctly in windows. Then you need to use the correct settings that will "work" in FP (for both the playfield and backbox). Also be sure that all your monitors are powered on first before powering on your PC. It matters, as Windows can confuse things.

 

Be sure you followed the included "Install Guide" PDF included with my FP and BAM Essentials AIO package. Then if still having problems, read the Info Guide and the FAQ and Help Guide.

 

 

This would be better directed to a FP section and topic from this point on.

Edited by TerryRed, 26 March 2024 - 01:01 AM.

[anthias]

Even without fizx there is enormous variation with newer FP tables playing better than older ones, just as vpx tables vary greatly. That said if I had the energy and time I'd be converting all my FP tables to fizx. I just don't, between a toddler, health, work, and the incredibly annoying need for sleep it's a miracle I'm producing anything, without taking on an additional learning curve, though it d love to get my head around it.

[fhjui]

@TerryRed: >>No tricks or patches or wizardy is being done

Ah ok. I'll point out:

there is no source code for FP.

The original version is rubbish. Only through BAM FP becomes a usable program.

Then there is the fact that the newer tables only work thanks to Microsoft's 4GB patch, which shifts the ratio of kernel to user space from 2:2 to 1:3 in the 32bit program, so that FP can allocate more user memory .

Then the uniform configuration for all tables via BAM, changed physics, hiding the FP logo, etc.

I don't know what you want to call it then, except "patch", perhaps Add-on?

 

FP is at its limit with these restrictions and when the planned features of VPX and DOF (integration of B2S, transformation to Unity), FP will have a very difficult time.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm a Fan of FP and I appreciate what Leathley in 2008 has created there. But for a future, FP would have to be re-energized so that the program itself can be expanded again. Unfortunately I don't have the skills to do that

Edited by fhjui, 25 March 2024 - 09:27 AM.

[TerryRed]

There's no source code for FP.

 

Having no source code, and relying on BAM for updates and new features doesn't = a trick. Similar things are done with many other closed sourced PC games to update them, add new features, or fix bugs, etc. (Heck even nvidia is doing this with RTX remix). Even Chris Leathley complimented BAM years ago. Yes, the main editor app can't be updated (and is certainly lacking compared to VP). That doesn't mean FP is less capable regarding the game you get to play because of it. In fact I do a lot of my table creation during real-time gameplay and in VR because of how BAM works for table creators. It's sweet.

 

 

The original version is rubbish. Only through BAM FP becomes a usable program.

 

...and? So what? BAM fixes FP's problems, and makes FP WAY the hell more than "a useable program".

 

Would I be using FP today if BAM didn't exist? Heck no. That doesn't mean FP is "less" because of it needing BAM for new tables. Everyone today understand that BAM is now a requirement for FP. It's been that way for years now.

 

To me, and most creators and players, they are both the same thing now. One package. FP-BAM.

 

Just like with VP. For most people it isn't worthwhile using VPX without VPinMAME (a separate app) for emulation, in which most VP tables can't even run without it.

 

 

Then there is the fact that the newer tables only work thanks to Microsoft's 4GB patch, which shifts the ratio of kernel to user space from 2:2 to 1:3 in the 32bit program, so that FP can allocate more user memory.

 

...and? Where's the problem with that? It's not a hack, and it's used with many 32 bit apps and PC games. It's changing a flag to allow more ram to be used in a 64 bit OS. Who wouldn't want to do that? This isn't 2008 anymore.

 

VPX / B2S 32 bit have been using this for YEARS. Most people just didn't realize it.. So, why is it a problem that FP is now doing that for some of my new releases... that are frankly, pretty high tier tables.

 

 

Then the uniform configuration for all tables via BAM, changed physics, hiding the FP logo, etc.

 

Again... using BAM as the standard (for years now) to run FP is what has allowed fixes and new features and more options for players and creators... which is a "good" thing. Ironically... many of the new VP updates are moving more and more to work in a similar way to how BAM has been doing things with FP tables (and per table cfg files, etc) for many years now.

 

 

I don't know what you want to call it then, except "patch", perhaps Add-on?

 

BAM is an "Add-on". I even call it that myself in all my guides. FP "today" requires it for all tables to play all new tables. So what? I include everything ready to go in "one" zip file" in my Essentials AIO. Nothing else is "required" to play any FP table.

 

VPX "today" also requires many "addons". It requires B2S server (and directb2s files), VPinMAME (and roms), FlexDMD (and addon media files), DMDExt for DMDs, PUP for modern Stern-like DMD displays and more (and pup-packs). VPX doesn't have native support for many things that if used by itself, one would call it "not a usable program" by some people's standards.

 

 

FP is at its limit with these restrictions and when the planned features of VPX and DOF (integration of B2S, transformation to Unity), FP will have a very difficult time.

 

What difficulty? With FP... even with 32 bit ram limits (but unlimited vram usage thanks to BAM), I have yet to be restricted with what I've been doing (or want to do in the future). FP has realtime (per-pixel) lighting and doesn't require a shit load of ram to use pre-baked textures to fake lighting, or to use 100's of models to do any animation, etc like VP does. Not saying I wouldn't mind having 64 bit ram access though. I would do some really crazy stuff then.

 

What I've been doing is stuff that is simply not possible with VPX (even with 64 bit and 10.8). I'm not some noob who doesn't understand the capabilities and limits of each app. Maybe you should take a look at what I have been doing with tables like Silent Hill, and realize that something like that has never been made on any pinball platform to date.... and I have much more to add to it (and with my other wip tables). Things like BAM's miniplayfield tool are very powerful, and allow for so much that can be done on FP.

 

One thing I've NEVER had to worry about... even with many BAM updates over the years.... is backwards compatibility. All my older tables / updates / mods still run fine today like they did many years ago, along with all my newest tables... and without the need to completely update the table just to get it to run.

 

I've heard the same arguments about FP for years now (from people who have never created anything using FP-BAM)... and year after year all the things people tried telling me have been proven wrong again and again (physics can never be changed / made better, it will never be improved, it will never get new features, lighting is restricted, you can't use COM items, can't use DOF or PUP or SSF, etc). All of that and more had been disproven, and year after year I've seen new features that VP still doesn't have, or is now starting to catch up on. That's not to say FP isn't lacking either. I think people who have only created on old FP or new VP have never had other options (that FP-BAM provides) and don't know what they are missing, or they are too invested in the VP world to try anything else. I have done both. That's ok though... to each their own.

 

Talk is cheap, and I do my talking with what I create to show I'm not full of it. Anyone can try my PinEvent stuff out today and see for themselves (how much better it plays and looks, etc). Soon enough you'll see MOTU CE which looks amazing (and combines both FP-BAM's features as well as some Blender baking, etc). Then after that, it's back to work on Silent Hill.

 

 

Transformation to Unity

 

To me there is no "only VP" or "only FP". Use the tool that gets the job done with the features you want. For "me" and what I want to do, FP is the only option that provides that. That won't always be the case... but for a long while to come I don't see that changing.

 

If VPE becomes a completed reality (and I can do what I do today, and more), believe me, you will see me more than anyone leave both FP and VPX behind (as a creator. I'd still play any great tables made by others on both). I've said this for years.

 

Until that day, everyone uses what they prefer to get the job done to "their" satisfaction. Each year, I get more and more satisfied with what I've been able to pull off with FP... and better stuff will be coming.

Edited by TerryRed, 27 March 2024 - 11:06 AM.

[digitalarts]

1000% agree

[blindpeser]

Thanks for all the hard work @TerryRed!