70 replies to this topic

[wiesshund]

 Can I Mod the Guns n Roses table?? I know nothing about editing tables but it sure needs some work done to it.

 

You will by the time you are finished

[Wylte]

This thread gives me anxiety. I literally just posted a mod (to VPX originals, since I thought the mod board was just for mods of non-original or VPM tables) and the thing I've been most concerned about is not stepping on the tires of the original authors. I wrote everyone listed in the credits, but HauntFreaks has been away for years. If he comes back and hates it, I can take it down (and I would) - but it's out there now. Hundreds of people have it, and have presumably played it. Does that harm the original? If someone says my art is amazing and I don't take the time to correct them, am I taking credit away from Hf? I don't think so, but he may feel differently.

IMO, this should be a collaborative community - anyone can add their fork to something, and if it's no good it'll wither on the vine. Maybe a system for the community to say "this version adds nothing" would be needed, but right now it doesn't seem like there's much of a problem with low-effort table ripoffs being posted here. I know there's a wider debate about stealing/packaging tables right now, but that's a whole other beast.

Can I Mod the Guns n Roses table?? I know nothing about editing tables but it sure needs some work done to it.

 
You will by the time you are finished

Can confirm, doing is learning!

[tartzani]

Could one make a "proper" release of Earthshaker i wonder ?

 

would that be alowed now ?

I have this one with flippertricks and extra sounds

 

https://cdn.discorda...earthshaker.jpg

[mborz]

And when I fix a game-ending flaw, that's a significant change in anyone's language

 

Anyone's language?  Not in my language. 

 

The impact of a change can be significant while the scope of the change is not.  It happens all the time in software development.  If I fix a bug that is causing a website to become unresponsive under load, I don't consider it a significant change if I had to only work on a small amount of code to do so.  I would consider it a minor change that had a big impact.

 

You might feel differently, and that's fine if you do.  I will not say you're definition is wrong, or that mine is right.  But I'm just pointing out that your definition of significant doesn't automatically match up with other people's just because you say it should.

 

The author gave you permission to mod -- so long as the changes were significant.  So you went ahead and made a mod, and released it with a description of changes that was 4 words long.  I'm not saying that doesn't mean the changes weren't significant, but with such little detail, it completely leaves it up to the reader of the description to decide for themselves.  And that's probably not a good thing in a case like this one.

 

You apologized though, and that was cool.  It's totally normal for people think they have an agreement only to realize they were not on the same page.  You said that in your apology, which, again, was cool and "big" of you bigus.

 

For all of the commenters saying people just need to stop being so sensitive, or view things differently, I respectfully disagree.  Different people are motivated by different things.  If some people are driven purely by the want to share, they are not going to react to things the same way as someone who might feel a more personal attachment.

 

Our motivation is our drive.  It's the inner flame that keeps the engine running to make sure the destination is reached, even when it's a long road and reserves are low.  It's what propels us to progress from lousy/okay to great.  People just can't "change" what they are motivated by, or feel differently just because someone tells them they should.  Asking them to do so will often just make things worse.

 

Disclaimer:  I want to be up front that I have contributed no tables or mods to this community.  I have tried to fix a few bugs, and also tried to mod a table once.  In both cases, when reaching out for help, other more talented people took things further than I ever could have dreamed.  I was so thankful for other people stepping up, and it was also humbling to see what it takes to make these tables as good as so many of them are.  It takes more than effort -- it takes talent.

 

If that disqualifies me from having an opinion, I am fine with that.  I readily admit I could be talking out of ignorance because I am not close enough to the process and have not put the same kind of work in that other's have, I really am not trying to make things worse by adding my 2 cents.

 

I am profoundly thankful for all of the people who drive this community which has allowed me to play games I grew up with -- and stay in touch with my inner kid.  So many times my reaction has been to simply shake my head in amazement at how great some of these table are.  I hope the community continues to flourish.  I hope to some day be able to contribute.  I will keep working towards that.

[Armyaviation]

Noah, I built Hardbody and Party Animal and released it. We made the playfield image from scratch, scanned plastics and used the vp9 as a reference but looked up all switches and solenoids and figured out lighting assignments by watching videos and testing real machines... Does that mean that Bigus is allowed to take my tables and mod them because someone built vp9 versions before I even came around... Does that mean that he can do 2 hours of work on my table, changing lights to his liking, physics and a few little things, and then slap his name all over it, just to have every new person think he is some great table builder???? To my knowledge he has never built a table from scratch or even from a vp9 table. He doesnt try and improve himself by adding good flashers or shadows from blender, he just takes others tables and puts his name on it. And when people comment they always mention his name first in the credits, now one of the greats is gone because of it, and your ok with the way this is going?

Edited by Armyaviation, 11 April 2021 - 05:18 AM.

[wiesshund]

Noah, I built Hardbody and Party Animal and released it. We made the playfield image from scratch, scanned plastics and used the vp9 as a reference but looked up all switches and solenoids and figured out lighting assignments by watching videos and testing real machines... Does that mean that Bigus is allowed to take my tables and mod them because someone built vp9 versions before I even came around... Does that mean that he can do 2 hours of work on my table, changing lights to his liking, physics and a few little things, and then slap his name all over it, just to have every new person think he is some great table builder???? To my knowledge he has never built a table from scratch or even from a vp9 table. He doesnt try and improve himself by adding good flashers or shadows from blender, he just takes others tables and puts his name on it. And when people comment they always mention his name first in the credits, now one of the greats is gone because of it, and your ok with the way this is going?

 Pretty sure all biggus's table listings say such an such great table by [original author] i game it a makeover

 

He also never removes the original author's name or comments from the script or the table info

 

So, if someone replies "Hey you designed a great table"

Perhaps that is the person you should go beat until they learn how to read.

 

I put up a table recently

1st thing i said in the description is I DID NOT MAKE THIS FUCKING TABLE

all i did was get it to work in VPX, so that someone with more art talent than i can take it and give it a proper rebuilding

original author is apparently long gone.

In fact that is about all the description said about the table, repeatedly

I DID NOT FUCKING MAKE THIS

 

1st comment i get is one telling me how i designed an awesome table

I can not do anything about the fact that the person failed at reading comprehension the 1st 10 times

[bigus1]

It amuses me how the people that are always banging-on about giving credit refuse to give me even an ounce of credit and spend their efforts trying to belittle mine.

Or they use my mod as feedstock for their own but childishly omit me from a long, long list of prior contributors.

I put a lot of time towards learning what I do and I can do it quite speedily these days, but that doesn't translate into poor quality. I test the crap out of tables before I release them, and that is reflected in the lack of error reports. Otherwise I'd be spending my days fixing errors instead of doing what I enjoy. I support and update around 90 tables, but that's just me being lazy, eh?

[BrandonLaw]

Let this dude tinker.  He's clear in his delivery and frankly loves this hobby.  He plays and up-mods an ass-load of tables....regularly.  He has good intentions and does nothing but defends his name since I can remember.  Authors are leaving for just a site going down and this guy gets murdered all the time yet still hangs out and tries to better what we do in some way.  I and I'm sure most of y'all are of the mindset "if you don't like it, delete it or don't download it"...but like why not give it a shot?  He obviously is around more tables and plays more than a large chunks of us virtually AND in real life.  (I personally think your balls have a touch too much gravity on some tables, but that's for another day) 

 

As a father, and very involved in my work, and hobbies, I like being involved in VPinning, but when grown men scourge other grown men within a community hobby it becomes un-fun and some folks just go back into the bushes when they should be having a conversation.  It takes 5 seconds of downloading tables to realize ol' Biggy is a MODDER and not an author.  Who cares if he was? Like....think about it....you aren't buying onions at the supermarket being like 'you see what FLUPPER released today' to the cashier. 

 

This.

Is.

A.

HOBBYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEAALAA:LFKJFRL:ASKJDF:LKSADJF:LSDFIJK.

 

 

[Noah Fentz]

Noah, I built Hardbody and Party Animal and released it. We made the playfield image from scratch, scanned plastics and used the vp9 as a reference but looked up all switches and solenoids and figured out lighting assignments by watching videos and testing real machines... Does that mean that Bigus is allowed to take my tables and mod them because someone built vp9 versions before I even came around... Does that mean that he can do 2 hours of work on my table, changing lights to his liking, physics and a few little things, and then slap his name all over it, just to have every new person think he is some great table builder???? To my knowledge he has never built a table from scratch or even from a vp9 table. He doesnt try and improve himself by adding good flashers or shadows from blender, he just takes others tables and puts his name on it. And when people comment they always mention his name first in the credits, now one of the greats is gone because of it, and your ok with the way this is going?

If you don't want to give back to the site that made it possible, how does that reflect poorly on me exactly?

So far, your only contribution here lately, that I can see, has been incessant whining.

[Armyaviation]

Yep, you are all right. And losing 32 is a good thing too huh??? Don’t worry Noah, I will not whine anymore either, I’ll just delete my account too.

[Noah Fentz]

Later. Don't let the log out button hit you in the tail on your way out.

[humid]

You don't see the guy who actually killed JFK crying because Lee Harvey Oswald became the household name do you? Or Ray Bradbury crying because Stephen King borrowed his ideas and made big money off them. Or Stern crying because Slash helped with the new Guns N' Roses table, but didn't offer much to the 1994 table. We all find strange reasons to whine.

 

I've been addicted to VP since 2005. I've seen fights and departures over dozens of issues. The modding issue has been around forever. When I see Destruct show up to offer an opinion, it is a comforting flashback. Let's invite Pacdude and Scapino and Gottlieb back to chime in. (pun intended). ALL tables continue to improve as authors come and go. JP SALAS is the timeless template which all authors should learn from. Though I respect, and feel for 32assasins sense of frustration, he is no Grasshopper.... he did not learn all that the master has been teaching. Noah is correct. There is no room for possessiveness of tables you have copied. This hobby is the reward, not your singular contribution. Right now TerryRed has become the latest 'Spotlit' contributor. It's wonderful how different men step up to serve our love for the game that never repeats. It's sad that the same old argument continues to repeat. Every week I continue to enjoy the progress, try to ignore the cycles of friction, and play a ton of amazing recreations. Thanks to all who get what this should be about.  Check out my video. Proof that I know a bit about tension.

 

Edited by humid, 11 April 2021 - 05:58 PM.

[xantari]

One thing that has not been covered here, is that I feel that this hobby is about digital preservation. Machines from the 50's,60's, etc would be unplayable to many of us. In order to preserve this history I feel like all tables should be freely available for all. Yes it takes a long time to recreate this stuff and preserve the legacy of that particular pinball machine, but how else will this history be enjoyed by a wider audience unless you treat every table as a free and open digital recreation? Credit the original author in all subsequent revisions and may the best recreation be enjoyed by everyone.

 

As a side note, I really like the fact that VPE's file format will be a Git compatible file format instead of the binary format that VPX is in, so all forks, branches of a recreation will be traceable back to every author who touched that table recreation. You'll truly be able to see what percentage, lines of code, images/3d models were affected by every subsequent revision of that table.

[wiesshund]

This is like either this, or running with scissors

and i dont have a video of running with scissors handy

[TroyArt]

Group hug? Group hug, squeeeeeeeeeeeze!

[wiesshund]

 

 

As a side note, I really like the fact that VPE's file format will be a Git compatible file format instead of the binary format that VPX is in, so all forks, branches of a recreation will be traceable back to every author who touched that table recreation. You'll truly be able to see what percentage, lines of code, images/3d models were affected by every subsequent revision of that table.

 

VPX is like that now really, just dont have a stand alone recompressor tool or the option to just ask vpx editor to work with a raw folder.

I can edit a table, without vpx editor, and have the table setup in github fashion, that part is easy
the problem is, putting the Genie back in the bottle when i am done.

I have a table sitting in raw form on my laptop
i got no problem modifying the script or the artwork or sounds, table objects maybe, if i knew what half the info meant perhaps.
i just can not put it back together again, so to speak.

Even if i could, the real question is, would i work on the table that way, if i could put Genie back in the bottle?
the answer is probably not, and Toxie could most likely make a Genie re-bottler, but i doubt i would use it.

[3rdaxis]

 I'm struggling to see the difference between this and 32assassin's table? Is there a change log? Did I miss something? Seems like it's just taking up hard drive space? Bueller?

Edited by 3rdaxis, 20 April 2022 - 11:29 AM.

[wiesshund]

 I'm struggling to see the difference between this and 32assassin's table? Is there a change log? Did I miss something? Seems like it's just taking up hard drive space? Bueller?

 

The lighting is much different, which you can see if you run the two tables side by side.
 

The physics are different, i guess i would call the Bigus table easier?
or more forgiving.

 

There seem to be a few extra table parts, perhaps to prevent ball sticking, might be more stuff but comparing table parts etc is Boring

[Namco51]

Earthshaker is far and away my favorite table. I play it daily, it's my go-to on my virtutal pinball cabinet and it never gets old. I'm online today because I'm tired of losing balls. Usually it's around the Valut Trip VUK, but today the ball just dissapeared around the Vault Trip ramp entrance, it just blasted itself out of existance. I was looking to see if 32Assassin ever released an update because it was so damn close to perfection. I've been playing this table, 0.9a for a solid year and a half, easy. Before that I played the crap out of the bmiki75&serpiko vp9 version.

 

Real bummer reading through the thread. Wish 32Assassin would have updated the table and fixed the problems in the months between his last release and bigus1's updated version. That said, I just changed the VUK from a radius of 50 to 55. Seems to help, just played a game and had 8 valut trips without losing the ball once. Cest la vie.

 

What brought me here was I was looking for a way to get the ball unstuck when it's lost somwehere in geometry and many of the replies are "you shouldn't have to, the problem should get fixed, did you report the problem to table's support thread?". Well sometimes you just can't.

 

EDIT: Biggus1: just played a few games. I thought the flippers were too strong at first, but now I'm liking the change. I thought the Earthquake Institute lights were too bright, and looked weird, but after going back, they were oddly dim and looked even more funny in the other guy's version. I like the color tweaks, the Zone 1,2,3 inserts look lovely in blue, instead of that blue/green. I guess you installed some colored LED's under the inserts.

 

I love the Zone 5 area now. I love that I can now shoot it too hard and at the slightly wrong angle with the right flipper and it will jump over the VUK and it doesn't just magically suck itself into the Zone 5 VUK. I love how the ball now more naturally drops from the "5000 w/lit" insert area and gives a more clean shot on the Vault Trip ramp. Vault Trip VUK is fixed, no more losing my ball up there, that's for sure. 

 

It does seem a tad bit easier because the flippers feel a little stronger, but probably moreso because the weird behavior around Zone 5 is fixed. Flow feels much better now. Getting used to the lighting and I think it looks great!

Edited by Namco51, 24 May 2022 - 01:27 AM.

[Emre]

Thank you for the update. Is there a way to disable the colored dmd in the script? I don't know why it's colored all of a sudden.