95 replies to this topic

[rob046]

Some of you guys are simply missing my point, which might be creating drama where it doesn't need to be, & are thinking I'm trying to argue against reel based tables or trying to convince people that one way is right over another.  I mentioned several times that my posts should not be interpreted as such, but they are anyways.  & let's not forget I am a proponent of reel based tables, that part is not an issue.  I guess the question is, are the tables so good that it is worth having potentially thousands of people not being able to play it?  That is the dilemma I see, & I wish it didn't bother me.  I wasn't looking to get a long winding thread going here.  Wanted to make my point & drop out, though it didn't quite work out that way!

 

I know it is probably dumb of me to say these things at all that might go against FS in any way, on a site that prefers FS/cabinet stuff.  How about if I say that FS needs desktop users to be happy in order to flourish?  Is that a better way of putting what I'm trying to say?  Just know I'm not against any author or any style of table.  Rather as I said earlier, for those who want more reel based FS tables, that is fine, just think twice & make sure you know what you are asking for.

For those of you who say you want more & you'd be happy if every table was FS reel based... you are the people I'm talking to.  NO you don't want this, because the hobby would come crashing down.  Trust me.  Again, not saying it is right or wrong or that I wish things were that way.  IMHO it is what it is.

Edited by rob046, 10 December 2012 - 08:32 PM.

[faralos]

since when did this site become a dedicated cab site?

Why weren't we notified? I thought it was a pinball site

that happened to have some cab builders as members

the day this becomes solely a cab site is the day I cancel my membership

as I don't now nor will I ever own/build a cab

and I still build in 4:3 and WS 

 

This may sound stupid, but I look more for "aesthetics" than "good graphics"

 

I wouldn't think that was stupid if we were talking about original works. But this is about recreating physical tables. The author doesn't control the aesthetics (for the most part), that's from the original designer. So yes, "good graphics" count for a lot. That's what maintains the illusion, and honors the original table.

 

What kills me personally is seeing jpeg artifacts on table art. All in the name of what? Shaving off a couple hundred k?

um...no sorry I don't use jpegs to shave off megs

I do it for it's the only way I know how

if you want to teach me another way that is just as quick as a jpeg please be my guest

And IMO a jpeg uses so much more memory than a png or bmp

but my version of 9.1.2 does not support bmps as an imported image so I use jpegs

 

since when did this site become a dedicated cab site?

Why weren't we notified? I thought it was a pinball site

that happened to have some cab builders as members

the day this becomes solely a cab site is the day I cancel my membership

as I don't now nor will I ever own/build a cab

and I still build in 4:3 and WS 

 

This may sound stupid, but I look more for "aesthetics" than "good graphics"

 

I wouldn't think that was stupid if we were talking about original works. But this is about recreating physical tables. The author doesn't control the aesthetics (for the most part), that's from the original designer. So yes, "good graphics" count for a lot. That's what maintains the illusion, and honors the original table.

 

"What kills me personally is seeing jpeg artifacts on table art. All in the name of what? Shaving off a couple hundred k?

um...no sorry I don't use jpegs to shave off megs"

I do it for it's the only way I know how

if you want to teach me another way that is just as quick as a jpeg please be my guest

And IMO a jpeg uses so much more memory than a png or bmp

but my version of 9.1.2 does not support bmps as an imported image so I use jpegs--faralos

 

[tipoto]

For those of you who say you want more & you'd be happy if every table was FS reel based... you are the people I'm talking to

 

This is why I think we are creating drama for no reason. There are almost no FS reel based table in the download section, and it takes forever to make just one, so I don't know why we should be worried about the impact they could have on the community.

[Aurich]

Nothing wrong with JPEG - but if you turn up the compression on it then it's looks awful. I see otherwise gorgeous tables, that have obviously had a lot of time and love put into them, really taken down a few notches by bad JPEG compression on the playfield. It's 2012, there's no reason to ruin your work to try and save someone 400k.

[unclewilly]

Well I play tables fs. And im an author, so what you are saying thenrob is that building a table in just fs and releasing it to the community without offering a desktop version will kill the community. So I should be building tables and releasing them based on what the community wants, not based on what I enjoy making. Interesting perspective. This perspective and feeling pressured to please everyone in the comunity is what takes the fun out of this hobby. Thats why I havent been working on tables lately When time permits and I do start back on tables as I really enjoy building them, this perspective and the idea that I must release them in every format possible just to please the community, ill probably just take a pass on releasing them and just make them available to my friends here that are more appreciative to have tables rather then demanding them how they want to play them

[oooPLAYER1ooo]

Nothing wrong with JPEG - but if you turn up the compression on it then it's looks awful. I see otherwise gorgeous tables, that have obviously had a lot of time and love put into them, really taken down a few notches by bad JPEG compression on the playfield. It's 2012, there's no reason to ruin your work to try and save someone 400k.

that 400k translates to alot more in gfx ram when rendered in vp

[The Loafer]

I am sure Rob (the OTHER Rob ) is not intentionally implying that but I know from speaking to authors the various pressure you guys feel is real. To that, I can only say to remember the squeaky wheel gets the oil and the attention. When a member tells a table author whether they should build a table with reels or not, or whether the ball appears too big, or whether they should build an FS table or desktop, or whether they should only do Rom tables, or whether they should only do FP/VP tables, etc. those comments usually come from a minority of members, and they certainly don't reflect the silent majority. I think it's imperative for authors to just do tables via their personal style/choices. Doing fixes is all good of course but for what amounts to style or artistic decisions, that's not negotiable and too bad for members who don't understand. Some may complain, but so what? You can't please everyone anyway, even if you try.

Rob #2: ... You are right, IF all of a sudden, desktop users are left behind because all releases are FS reel based then yes, it would be detrimental to the site/hobby/community. It's a slippery slope but man right now, the slope is flat and the road is dry.

[Aurich]

 

Nothing wrong with JPEG - but if you turn up the compression on it then it's looks awful. I see otherwise gorgeous tables, that have obviously had a lot of time and love put into them, really taken down a few notches by bad JPEG compression on the playfield. It's 2012, there's no reason to ruin your work to try and save someone 400k.

that 400k translates to alot more in gfx ram when rendered in vp

 

 

It looks like crap, and ruins all the hard work people put into tables. Especially when it's the playfield art, which we should be preserving in as best a fashion as we can. Many top tables are quickly becoming the domain of collectors only, you won't see any of them in the wild soon enough. If your machine can't handle a PF jpeg that hasn't been squashed to hell then look into upgrading, it's 2012. We're not talking about crazy ideas here, this isn't Monopoly, I'd just like it if authors didn't over-compress graphics to the point where they're visibly compromised in the name of trying to shave K.

 

That's my two cents, but I'm obviously not dictating terms or naming names. Authors should feel free to do what makes them happy, it's their time and they owe nothing to anyone. My personal opinion is that while preserving the community is an excellent goal, we shouldn't be so beholden to people with ancient machines holding the state of things back. VP has enough obstacles without artificially hobbling it further.

[koadic]

Nothing wrong with JPEG - but if you turn up the compression on it then it's looks awful. I see otherwise gorgeous tables, that have obviously had a lot of time and love put into them, really taken down a few notches by bad JPEG compression on the playfield. It's 2012, there's no reason to ruin your work to try and save someone 400k.

that 400k translates to alot more in gfx ram when rendered in vp
 

I may be mistaken, but I didn't think the 'filesize' effected the gfx ram used, only the 'imagesize'... as soon as it is converted to pixels and placed in memory, it doesn't matter if it originated from a png/bmp file or a gif file. The big difference is a 1024x1024 image compared to 2048x2048, as that would use much more memory, and makes no difference if it was a 1920x1080 jpg file at 100% quality sized at 1.5mb or a 1920x1080 png file at 2.5mb, the latter having no visual compression applied and easier to edit over and over without continuously losing quality (no matter how minor).

[Aurich]

I may be mistaken, but I didn't think the 'filesize' effected the gfx ram used, only the 'imagesize'... as soon as it is converted to pixels and placed in memory, it doesn't matter if it originated from a png/bmp file or a gif file. The big difference is a 1024x1024 image compared to 2048x2048, as that would use much more memory, and makes no difference if it was a 1920x1080 jpg file at 100% quality sized at 1.5mb or a 1920x1080 png file at 2.5mb, the latter having no visual compression applied and easier to edit over and over without continuously losing quality (no matter how minor).

 

 

If that's the case we should absolutely be cranking the compression up to the highest quality setting. You'll still see savings over a PNG or BMP. Hard drives are cheap, and if you're on a modem, well, this is a rough hobby for you. Backglass images are already PNGs anways.

[oooPLAYER1ooo]

 

 

Nothing wrong with JPEG - but if you turn up the compression on it then it's looks awful. I see otherwise gorgeous tables, that have obviously had a lot of time and love put into them, really taken down a few notches by bad JPEG compression on the playfield. It's 2012, there's no reason to ruin your work to try and save someone 400k.

that 400k translates to alot more in gfx ram when rendered in vp
 

 

I may be mistaken, but I didn't think the 'filesize' effected the gfx ram used, only the 'imagesize'... as soon as it is converted to pixels and placed in memory, it doesn't matter if it originated from a png/bmp file or a gif file. The big difference is a 1024x1024 image compared to 2048x2048, as that would use much more memory, and makes no difference if it was a 1920x1080 jpg file at 100% quality sized at 1.5mb or a 1920x1080 png file at 2.5mb, the latter having no visual compression applied and easier to edit over and over without continuously losing quality (no matter how minor).

 

i know size is a factor but i know that if i have a bunch of png or bmp at 1024x 2048 i get offscreen surface errors but if i load jpegs in it works, i asumed that the file size was the issue but it may have been the image format. this is on lower end machines tho and i havnt checked the theory that much since the texture size limiter was added to vp settings.

 

aurich all my released tables use jpegs for pf images. are you saying they are low res? and those low end machine members are the huge in numbers, if you even had some idea of the amount of emails i would get from people complaining you would understand why we have had to cut corners stealing a little bit of resources back wherever we can.

 

in a way i gave up long ago trying to satisfy people so i make tables mostly for myself and friends, i am trying to get motivated but its the complaining about something they get for free that drives me nuts and leaves a sour taste in my mouth sometimes.

maybe in a few years the majority of people will play my tables hassle free and i can slot back into the scene fulltime again without the problems.

Edited by oooPLAYER1ooo, 11 December 2012 - 07:18 AM.

[StevOz]

Maybe, then again most likely not, it's not the way you make the table but VP itself using old MS standards that are only supported via emulation within drivers and such that causes these issues. No easy fix, VP needs to be rewritten from the ground up, no small task, requiring experts in the field and not likely something that such folk will devote their time and resources to as a hobby. One only need to examine it's roots, Randy created VP as a programming exercise to hone his skills and to that end at that time it was state of the art, it served that purpose well proving his abilities. Thing is MS is not the only pony in the show these days and if anything is a dying standard.

 

VP does do it's own internal rendering of any graphic, in some instances .bmp images provide the best solution (decals), whilst at other times a good .jpg will do the job as well it's all trial and error, try this or that other format and check the results.

 

Reel rendered tables are just another workaround to implement the best rendering possible via VP, though there's no free lunch to achieve those desired results takes more time and effort then would be needed at all if VP where not so rooted in old code.

Edited by StevOz, 11 December 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[xio]

Size doesn't matter as long as we have fun

[teppotee]

These comments from our top authors (uw & player1) get me really worried:

"ill probably just take a pass on releasing them and just make them available to my friends" & "in a way i gave up long ago trying to satisfy people so i make tables mostly for myself and friends"

 

I understand their point of view totally. It's not nice to spend A LOT of time on something only to be flooded with complaints from small but loud minority. But it also makes me feel bad  that many (most) of us who really appreciate the work that is done (for free!) may be left out. New tables and updates are a huge part of the whole VP "experience".  So it's sad to think of a future where some of the best releases become a privilege of selected few. So... where do I sign up as your friends???

 

Anyway about the actual topic... I have only done few FS MODs. Which have only maybe taken dozens of hours of my time vs. hundreds it may take to create a table from scratch... I still only do it because it's fun and I do it primary for myself. I have released them because I have been happy with the end results and thought that others might enjoy them as well. If I would have had to think of all possible target audiences while doing them. The fun would have stopped there. So I think it's pointless to argue about the FS/Desktop creations and reels etc. Everyone who is contributing their time and creations for the community should be allowed to do so in anyway they want to without thinking if it's leaving part of the community out. Any release is better for the whole community than no release at all.

[StevOz]

flooded with complaints from small but loud minority.flooded with complaints from small but loud minority.

 

What is it with that totally wrong ideology?

 

Someone that posts or is it someone that posts often or is it your interpretation of their post or style there of?

 

It's text on a screen, really for proponents of the art of pinball, that have/should have been to some of the most seedy locations to get a pinball fix this lack of steel balls confounds me.

 

PC does not or never should mean pinball correct....

 

*posted on the internet in virtual space!*

Edited by StevOz, 11 December 2012 - 09:06 AM.

[faralos]

I do have a problem loading in bmp's with my version of vp9.1.2

 so I am forced to use jpegs everywhere from the play fields to the drop targets

to the back glasses

odd though the bmp's load into all other vp versions I have

[Aurich]

aurich all my released tables use jpegs for pf images. are you saying they are low res?

 

Again, there's nothing really wrong with using JPEG. It's a lossy format, but if you don't crank the compression up it's fairly unnoticeable. If you aren't careful however you can introduce some really ugly artifacts into your playfield, and for me at least it really detracts from all of the hard work you put into the table. I say you in the generic sense, I have no idea how your tables look off the top of my head.

[rob046]

I fully understand that some people could care less about what is good for the community & just want to do whatever makes them happy.  I get that.  I do think the digital preservation of pinball history is important, as well as the hobby satisfying as many people as possible, with regard to the health of the hobby.  & btw this isn't all about reel based tables.  Sometimes a nice regular FS releases comes out, people ask when the desktop version is coming, & the reply is just "no" or "never" because the author doesn't feel like it.  Really?  I mean, I get it, that authors can do whatever they feel like, but damn, if a table could make a nice desktop conversion with just a few minutes of work & has no reels or decals that need adjusted & as a result hundreds or maybe thousands of more people could enjoy it in the long run... shouldn't we all encourage that getting done?  I feel like most people have to agree with me on this, but I understand don't want to speak out because it would seem like they are telling an author what to do.

 

I've always viewed tables as a privilege to work on, to where I feel I should be paying $$ to be allowed to make them.  I simply don't like or agree with the approach that since I'm sharing a table that I worked on, that I'm entitled to do whatever I feel like with it.  I mean, we are getting to use licensed material for free, in order to bring our favorite tables back to life!  & so I don't really think it is fair for anybody to treat a table as being truly "theirs", to do with as they please.  & in return for the privilege, I have no problem spending time doing something I don't want to do for the good of the hobby, such as a FS conversion or abandoning reels.  Maybe that is just my "warped" view of things, IDK, but I stand by it.  We are getting to do some cool things here, what an honor to work on this stuff.

 

I'm somewhat protective of the hobby that got me back into pinball many years ago which led me to owning my real pins, & made me a part of what is now a growing hobby on both the real & digital side of things.  & so I view the future of the hobby as kind of important.

Hey, if there was no table rotation in VP today, you can bet that reels would still be my preferred method of making tables.  & its a bummer I feel that way on some level because after spending a few years dealing with reels & decals, I was really starting to get efficient at it!

[rob046]

Well I play tables fs. And im an author, so what you are saying thenrob is that building a table in just fs and releasing it to the community without offering a desktop version will kill the community. So I should be building tables and releasing them based on what the community wants, not based on what I enjoy making. Interesting perspective. This perspective and feeling pressured to please everyone in the comunity is what takes the fun out of this hobby. Thats why I havent been working on tables lately When time permits and I do start back on tables as I really enjoy building them, this perspective and the idea that I must release them in every format possible just to please the community, ill probably just take a pass on releasing them and just make them available to my friends here that are more appreciative to have tables rather then demanding them how they want to play them

You & JP are always guys I applaud for striving to make tables for everybody.  & when you say every format possible, that is just 2, right?  The introduction of FS did indeed complicate the community a bit, & did put pressure on authors to help out both sides.  We have so few authors, that if one decides to not help out both sides, that is a pretty big hit.  It is what it is.  All this stuff I'm talking about... I'm not saying one iota that people need to build tables a certain way to my liking. 

 

Just stating the facts that doing them one way is better for the community than doing things another way.  Again, I didn't create this dilemma, I'm just pointing it out.  & I would say what everybody else would say here, which is that if doing 2 versions is really hurting your VP building experience that much, then by all means avoid it & just do what makes you happy, since 1 version is better than none.  Or just admit you aren't up for 2 versions, give immediate open permission for a desktop mod.  That is better than nothing, though it might not get done, as there is already a backlog of tables with permission granted to mod, but nobody is getting around to it.  I think though that you probably enjoy being able to reach many more people by creating a desktop version.  Right?  I mean, isn't this why any of us share tables to begin with?  If we didn't feel this way, wouldn't we all just do tables for ourselves & never share?  Thus, while 2 versions can be annoying, its a small price to pay to bring happiness to so many more people.

Edited by rob046, 11 December 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[rob046]

 

aurich all my released tables use jpegs for pf images. are you saying they are low res?

 

Again, there's nothing really wrong with using JPEG. It's a lossy format, but if you don't crank the compression up it's fairly unnoticeable. If you aren't careful however you can introduce some really ugly artifacts into your playfield, and for me at least it really detracts from all of the hard work you put into the table. I say you in the generic sense, I have no idea how your tables look off the top of my head.

 

 

Aurich you are right.  I've imported 100% jpeg into VP & have still seen compression marks, especially when zooming in on the PF.  I now always use PNG, lately, because honestly they don't even end up that much larger in file size than 100% JPEG, & you get zero compression within VP.  That said, if we were all forced to use 100% JPEG, its not like we would see a noticeable quality drop either.

 

VP was having texture issues, perhaps more so with PNG.  People are having offscreen error issues.  However, I believe we had a dev or two working on that in newer versions of VP, & that a bug was found that was bloating textures more than they should have been.  So if that solves the offscreen error for everybody, or at least almost everybody, then at that point IMHO we should all go PNG for damn near everything.