65 replies to this topic

[jimmyfingers]

Thanks for your help Jimmy. I ended up just taking the plunge and threw XP 32-bit on my cab and the table runs flawlessly now every time. A couple of other tables that would sporadically give me issues now run perfectly as well. Since you're running Windows 7 64-bit and have sporadic issues as well I'm willing to bet that (and possibly some combination of nvidia geforce 400 and 500 series cards/drivers) are the culprit.

I'm actually running Windows 7 32-bit but, yes, I'm sure that there are more nuances with it's richer graphical enviornment when compared to Windows XP and runs the higher texture tables less consistently. There are things I like about Windows 7 which are why I still keep it on my cabinet but XP is a good bet with VP.

Not sure if the masses know this, but you can get rid of flipper tearing on the tables by allowing desktop composition to stay on in Windows 7 - that's the main reason I use it. You will loose some performance (10 - 20 %) and it also seems like high texture tables load less consistently when descktop composition is on (again probably more system / graphical memory in use and occupied affecting how well the table gets written up into it). But you can always create a 2nd copy of the vpinball.exe and turn off desktop composition for that instance using / referring to that one from front ends for the tables that need the extra help.

Glad to hear that you got a solution that works for you and helps out on other tables too.

Edited by jimmyfingers, 19 January 2012 - 09:04 PM.

[JAM0]

what is flipper tearing?

[bladexdsl]

i run vp in win7 64x flawlessly on my cab you just have to the have the right (beefy) hardware

Edited by bladexdsl, 19 January 2012 - 10:24 PM.

[jimmyfingers]

what is flipper tearing?

Flipper tearing is a graphical glitch that you can see when you flip them fast and the uniformity of how their drawn get's out of shape (like a razor slice through it where one side is still higher or lower than the other). It's the same type of thing as the v-sync aspect for other 3D video games to keep the frames drawn on the screen consistent. Some people can't notice it or are not bothered by it (like the old DLP rainbow effect on projectors T.V.s with low number of colour segments / wheels).

Even though I don't think it's too common that people complain about the nuance, there are definitely those that notice and a few posts about it. For me it takes away from the realism and I see it huge on my set-up at least - plus I tend to notice those things (just my eyes and general speediness I think . Some faster refresh monitors / T.V.s might make it harder to notice and less of a problem - but it would sitll likely be there and slightly out of sync just not as easy to see with more frames per second.

My description may not be great or totally accurate but you could also look-up DVD tearing for movie playback (on a PC) as it's essentially the same thing as well.

[thewool]

Jimmy, does this setting solve tearing in the rest of the table as well, also the DMD screen and when using UVP backglass?

Personally I hate tearing, it bugs the hell out of me in anything - I would love to get rid if it!

what is flipper tearing?

Flipper tearing is a graphical glitch that you can see when you flip them fast and the uniformity of how their drawn get's out of shape (like a razor slice through it where one side is still higher or lower than the other). It's the same type of thing as the v-sync aspect for other 3D video games to keep the frames drawn on the screen consistent. Some people can't notice it or are not bothered by it (like the old DLP rainbow effect on projectors T.V.s with low number of colour segments / wheels).

Even though I don't think it's too common that people complain about the nuance, there are definitely those that notice and a few posts about it. For me it takes away from the realism and I see it huge on my set-up at least - plus I tend to notice those things (just my eyes and general speediness I think . Some faster refresh monitors / T.V.s might make it harder to notice and less of a problem - but it would sitll likely be there and slightly out of sync just not as easy to see with more frames per second.

My description may not be great or totally accurate but you could also look-up DVD tearing for movie playback (on a PC) as it's essentially the same thing as well.

[jimmyfingers]

Jimmy, does this setting solve tearing in the rest of the table as well, also the DMD screen and when using UVP backglass?

Personally I hate tearing, it bugs the hell out of me in anything - I would love to get rid if it!

From what I can tell yes, except I'm not sure about the DMD / UVP. I've never seen any tearing on those in either set-up. You may have different nuances also by using VGA vs. digital video connections.

[JAM0]

I just want to reiterate how great I think this game is. Williams designed a fantastic game. I never saw the movie but I love the quotes. JP made a great table. The physics are great -- the flipper settings numbers are unusual but they work fantastic as does the rest of the table -- flawless. And Jimmy's work is the beautiful icing on the cake -- a classic!

[OuchTilt]

I just want to reiterate how great I think this game is. Williams designed a fantastic game. I never saw the movie but I love the quotes. JP made a great table. The physics are great -- the flipper settings numbers are unusual but they work fantastic as does the rest of the table -- flawless. And Jimmy's work is the beautiful icing on the cake -- a classic!

I couldn't have said it better myself

Defiantly a very underrated table.

[The Loafer]

Late to the party. This is a great real life pin, I have vowed to own it someday. This recreation is incredible, perhaps my fav visual pinball table. Well done on the mod, I will now have to go hunt down your other work.

[jimmyfingers]

Table has been updated with BMPR / Flipper physics MOD.

See this topic for a demo video and more detail: http://www.vpforums....mp;#entry183427

[Aaron James]

Table has been updated with BMPR / Flipper physics MOD.

See this topic for a demo video and more detail: http://www.vpforums....mp;#entry183427

I just played about an hour on it.
It's quite a difference. Ball is bouncier. It's a completely different "feel" to the table. flipper shots are different too. i can't explain it.
It definitely feels harder...lol.
Thanks for your hard work,
Aaron

[JAM0]

The more I play this the more I like it! Yes it is more difficult in many ways than the other version, but a real table was probably more difficult than the other table as well. But the flipper trick abilities allow for more deliberate play -- planning of strategies, etc, so in that way it is easier than the other one. The ball movement is superbly realistic. The only area of contention is the flipper articulation when in a pinch (frenzied situation). Thanks Jimmy for a great accomplishment!! I will be coming back to this often as these are only my preliminary observations, and as I said it is growing on me big time.

Edited by JAM0, 29 June 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[maceman]

Jimmy, does this setting solve tearing in the rest of the table as well, also the DMD screen and when using UVP backglass?

Personally I hate tearing, it bugs the hell out of me in anything - I would love to get rid if it!

Wool..... Do you mean on tables with ramp images for the flippers, or are you getting "tearing" on tables with just a default flipper too?? The reson i ask is that i have never had any tearing myself on anything but tables that use ramps.

This is usually caused by misalignment of the images. So for example, if you were to use, say, 6 images to create the illusion of a custom flipper (zipper flippers for example)...then the author needs to make sure the flipper images are perfectly alighed in a smooth fashion of you get tears and other illusions happening.

Is this what you mean or is there a bigger problem?
Cheers,
Maceman

ps. Great stuff Jimmy, but you never answered my question in the other thread ....Is this adjustment portable to other tables easily or is it something each table has to be modified significantly to accommodate? I'd love to try this on some other tables if it is indeed portable.

[jimmyfingers]

Jimmy, does this setting solve tearing in the rest of the table as well, also the DMD screen and when using UVP backglass?

Personally I hate tearing, it bugs the hell out of me in anything - I would love to get rid if it!

Wool..... Do you mean on tables with ramp images for the flippers, or are you getting "tearing" on tables with just a default flipper too?? The reson i ask is that i have never had any tearing myself on anything but tables that use ramps.

This is usually caused by misalignment of the images. So for example, if you were to use, say, 6 images to create the illusion of a custom flipper (zipper flippers for example)...then the author needs to make sure the flipper images are perfectly alighed in a smooth fashion of you get tears and other illusions happening.

Is this what you mean or is there a bigger problem?
Cheers,
Maceman

ps. Great stuff Jimmy, but you never answered my question in the other thread ....Is this adjustment portable to other tables easily or is it something each table has to be modified significantly to accommodate? I'd love to try this on some other tables if it is indeed portable.

The tearing I at least was referring to was from basic flipers and happened to me when I used Windows XP or Windows 7 with Desktop Compostion disabled. It's one of the reasons I stuck with Windows 7 even though you don't get as good of FPS with it and Destkop Composition left enabled (when the flippers were tearing it drew my attention too much but could also be exaggerated with my monitor / video / frequency combo as I did not notice it as bad on my development system).

This variable flipper strength routine on it's own is actually quite portable and I designed it as such so it can read / work with any existing settings (values) defined as usual in the editor for the flipper objects. Tables with more than two flippers will need little extra work to add in but on those ones that I've done for myself, I don't do any variable aspects for the upper flippers and simply just add the extra flippers to the appropriate part of the SolLFlipper or SolRFlipper routines.

To try the flipper routine on it's own in another table you would have to copy the two related timer objects and then replace the SolLFlipper or SolRFlipper routines on any table with the ones found now in this BSD MOD. I have some calls to flipper sounds for up and down (left and right) so you'd also want to copy those too and make sure they're named the same or change those sound calls / rename the sound objects (easier to just export and import on whatever table you're working on). The only other thing flipper specific I did on this table was modify their start and end angles to match what I was seeing in the PAPA video and increased the strength slightly but neither of these aspects would affect you adding the variable strength / soft tap routine on it's own and at a basic level.

Keep in mind though that outside of the flipper routine, this table also plays different / better with the fliper interaction because of the modified physics and how they blend with the BMPR implementation. That required a lot of tuning but even the BMPR can be applied in general relatively easily on tables that already have the B2B / collision script added and working (it's another story completely if you have to add B2B yourself). See the original thread on BMPR routine for more information and the demo table download for that.

For the record, I won't be able to respond to any other posts for a few days as I'm going up to a cotttage for the long weekend here in Canada and need to get going and actually do some other non-VP things that life has to offer - here's to some water skiing and outdoor jam sessions

[mariozeferino]

have a nice weekend jimmy, i haven t try the table yet because my son is playing lego batman2 on the cabinet, but i am sure i' m gonna like it

[maceman]

That's sounds cool! Glad it is somewhat portable, and thankful that anything i would think to try it on has the B2B collision, so this should be interesting.

Have a good weekend. My folks rent out the cottage sometimes, and this weekend is rented..... but i may still go somewhere- it's just too nice a time right now here in Ontario!!!!

Cheers,
Maceman

[The Loafer]

So I tried this new fangled mod and came away impressed to say the least but here is a funny anecdote that will make you smile.

First the facts:
- i own a firepower pinball
- I just took possession of a virtual pin
- I have put in a lot of time in setting up the front end and editing tables / hide DMD, etc.

Ok, so I have a friend over and of COURSE I must show him my beloved "loafer's pincab". So I show him a few games, he finds them very fun. Then we played my real firepower to compare and although he felt the VPin was still fun, there was no comparison. Fair comment, I've never felt a vp experience is supposed to replace a real pin experience anyway. So he asked if I had a VPin version of Firepower. I said "yeah, of course, give me a sec".

So we loaded it up and after playing for 3 minutes he stopped and said "wtf is up? This thing is a lot closer to your real pin in feel". It is then I realized I had edited your BMPR firepower to remove the apron lights, so yes, we were playing YOUR firepower mod. Things you do at 4:00am are sometimes forgotten...

So yeah, your work is appreciated good sir, enjoy your weekend and know that you are on the right track for elevating vp to new levels of realism. My own comments on this particular mod? I have found the original 8 step gi mod BSD to be a great table though a little on the easy side (I can hit the ramps forever). I found your mod has a better "live" feel to everything, a touch of appreciated randomness that elevated the experience and increased the difficulty appropriately. Ie: freaking awesome = more fun experience

Thanks again,

Rob

[maceman]

So I tried this new fangled mod and came away impressed to say the least but here is a funny anecdote that will make you smile.

First the facts:
- i own a firepower pinball
- I just took possession of a virtual pin
- I have put in a lot of time in setting up the front end and editing tables / hide DMD, etc.

Ok, so I have a friend over and of COURSE I must show him my beloved "loafer's pincab". So I show him a few games, he finds them very fun. Then we played my real firepower to compare and although he felt the VPin was still fun, there was no comparison. Fair comment, I've never felt a vp experience is supposed to replace a real pin experience anyway. So he asked if I had a VPin version of Firepower. I said "yeah, of course, give me a sec".

So we loaded it up and after playing for 3 minutes he stopped and said "wtf is up? This thing is a lot closer to your real pin in feel". It is then I realized I had edited your BMPR firepower to remove the apron lights, so yes, we were playing YOUR firepower mod. Things you do at 4:00am are sometimes forgotten...

So yeah, your work is appreciated good sir, enjoy your weekend and know that you are on the right track for elevating vp to new levels of realism. My own comments on this particular mod? I have found the original 8 step gi mod BSD to be a great table though a little on the easy side (I can hit the ramps forever). I found your mod has a better "live" feel to everything, a touch of appreciated randomness that elevated the experience and increased the difficulty appropriately. Ie: freaking awesome = more fun experience

Thanks again,

Rob

I just wanted to second what Rob said. My son and I played several games this afternoon. I was a wonderful experience. The mod is superb!!

btw Rob...the only thing i would differ with you on is the comment saying:

"Then we played my real firepower to compare and although he felt the VPin was still fun, there was no comparison. Fair comment, I've never felt a vp experience is supposed to replace a real pin experience anyway".

After the several real pinball machines i have played of late, I am almost ashamed to admit (but not really actually) that I really didn't enjoy my real experience. Granted, some of the machines lacked in servicing and that ruin things somewhat, but even so.... I feel I have grown to enjoy my pincab much more than any real tables. I probably wouldn't turn down the chance to play a real table but I would rather play VP/FP.... I know I could potentially get shot here for saying that...but that is how i feel

Am I alone? Cool your buddy liked it!!!

Cheers,
Maceman

[The Loafer]

Hey Maceman!

I get to play many real pins and IMHO, they are just awesome. However, most real pins I play are in EXCELLENT condition, the guys/gal that own these take care of them like you wouldn't believe. Still, this is a subjective thing, a virtual pin wins for several reasons as well, especially with the abilty to provide variety and the fun factor is still very high.

In no way should my comment be taken as derogatory to VP, they are two totally different mediums but it's normal for people to compare so for real pinball fans, they will naturally like them more however for me, although real pinball feels more real, it is not always automatically certain it is more fun. I am fortunate I own a real pin, a classic for me, and I'm the happiest guy on earth right now with this vpin . A true win/win scenario

[thewool]

Hi Maceman, no I meant I get normal flipper tearing in XP. From what JF was saying I was tempted to move to W7 to eliminate this, but have decided to live with the tearing as it's really not that bad.

Jimmy I spent some time with this mod last night and wow.... I thought it was class. It's a really good choice of table to showcase the mod as the pace is steady away and makes for a good tactical game where control is a blessing. The mod provides some lovely accuracy, about to go in for some more time tonight.

Hope you're enjoying the cabin, remember to stay out of the fruit cellar

Cheers mate