1002 replies to this topic

[boiydiego]

Hi BigBoss,

 

I've tried some of your tables, thanks a lot for sharing!

In the end, it seems like we just have different tastes.

 

Apparently, you like fast tables with more slope (PAPA style), when I prefer to have slower games.

I'm achieving good results when decreasing the slope by 0.5 or 1 on Elvira and the Party monster, or Dr. Who.

But IMHO, it's not better than some tables that have been perfectly tuned by some authors with the old engine. (Centaur, AFM beta 5 come to mind).

 

I guess I will stick with 9.9 for the time being. (while still making some attempts to get it right with physics3)

Mukuste is still improving the new physics, and I'm sure that it will be THE physics to use in the end, it's just a matter of fine tuning.

 

Cheers.

 

this is a BIG POINT everyone likes a table diffrent style fast or slow you can make the phsysis as strong and good or table as nice as you want  but if your mind doesnt like what its seeing then your fastly gone say that the phsysis is not good , finetuning of tables for your own is the key

 

with the old phsysis i always play(lots of times to much )  with the slope sometimes table will play better sometimes it makes the ball flooty isnt there a way to see what the realy exact slope is from a real table ? oke there are lots of things that will affect the table/ball feeling but then i definitilly know the slope is right and dont need to change that? is it always 6-6,5 ?

Edited by boiydiego, 01 May 2014 - 05:56 PM.

[Pinball999]

 

Hi BigBoss,

 

I've tried some of your tables, thanks a lot for sharing!

In the end, it seems like we just have different tastes.

 

Apparently, you like fast tables with more slope (PAPA style), when I prefer to have slower games.

I'm achieving good results when decreasing the slope by 0.5 or 1 on Elvira and the Party monster, or Dr. Who.

But IMHO, it's not better than some tables that have been perfectly tuned by some authors with the old engine. (Centaur, AFM beta 5 come to mind).

 

I guess I will stick with 9.9 for the time being. (while still making some attempts to get it right with physics3)

Mukuste is still improving the new physics, and I'm sure that it will be THE physics to use in the end, it's just a matter of fine tuning.

 

Cheers.

 

this is a BIG POINT everyone likes a table diffrent style fast or slow you can make the phsysis as strong and good or table as nice as you want  but if your mind doesnt like what its seeing then your fastly gone say that the phsysis is not good , finetuning of tables for your own is the key

 

with the old phsysis i always play(lots of times to much )  with the slope sometimes table will play better sometimes it makes the ball flooty isnt there a way to see what the realy exact slope is from a real table ? oke there are lots of things that will affect the table/ball feeling but then i definitilly know the slope is right and dont need to change that? is it always 6-6,5 ?

 

 

Wish it was that simple, but in real life, even the same table can have different slopes, depending on the arcade/bar where you'll find it

It's all a matter of taste in the end.

[boiydiego]

 

 

Hi BigBoss,

 

I've tried some of your tables, thanks a lot for sharing!

In the end, it seems like we just have different tastes.

 

Apparently, you like fast tables with more slope (PAPA style), when I prefer to have slower games.

I'm achieving good results when decreasing the slope by 0.5 or 1 on Elvira and the Party monster, or Dr. Who.

But IMHO, it's not better than some tables that have been perfectly tuned by some authors with the old engine. (Centaur, AFM beta 5 come to mind).

 

I guess I will stick with 9.9 for the time being. (while still making some attempts to get it right with physics3)

Mukuste is still improving the new physics, and I'm sure that it will be THE physics to use in the end, it's just a matter of fine tuning.

 

Cheers.

 

this is a BIG POINT everyone likes a table diffrent style fast or slow you can make the phsysis as strong and good or table as nice as you want  but if your mind doesnt like what its seeing then your fastly gone say that the phsysis is not good , finetuning of tables for your own is the key

 

with the old phsysis i always play(lots of times to much )  with the slope sometimes table will play better sometimes it makes the ball flooty isnt there a way to see what the realy exact slope is from a real table ? oke there are lots of things that will affect the table/ball feeling but then i definitilly know the slope is right and dont need to change that? is it always 6-6,5 ?

 

 

Wish it was that simple, but in real life, even the same table can have different slopes, depending on the arcade/bar where you'll find it

It's all a matter of taste in the end.

 

 

messing wih the correct slope is also a big no go i think

gone try the new phsysis now the crashcourse for the settings can't the all be set in preferences-phsysis option then make a new set , or do i need to change something on table also , i have the update tables so thats oke !?

[BuckoBundy]

mukuste:

 

The Coil Ramp Up thing seems to have some issues. I think others pointed out that when the ball hits the top of the flipper, it will bounce back more than you'd expect. I agree.
I see you can compensate for this effect by increasing strength and/or mass, but then you have an overpowered flipper that allows you to make shots that are not possible on the real table.

 

I'll link to a test table that I think shows the above effect pretty well: https://docs.google....LVZZOHF4cDFqdWM

Ramp up is at 2 on that table. I see no way to script a change in coil ramp up so you'll have to change it manually to see the different results. What I see is this:

 

Ramp up 0 = no effect (duh!)
Ramp up 1 = much more bounce than no Ramp Up
Ramp up 2 = slightly more bounce than Ramp up 1
Ramp up 3 = almost no change from Ramp up 2
Ramp up 4 and above = progressively less bounce

 

Things just don't seem natural there and it's a shame because the rest of the coil ramp up routine I like.

[BigBoss]

Pinball999: do you own any real games? I can see wanting slower play and that is what pitch will achieve but then you get a more floaty ball.

I'm finding a 6.5 pitch in physmod to be about on par with a 7 or so on real tables. I own about 40 real tables and they are all in like new condition. Routed games in a bar may play slower due to lack of maintenance, but that's not how the games were intended to play so I don't think its a good model of how we want the in game physics here. Pinball arcade plays a lot slower and more floaty. But at least on DMD era games, that's just not how real games play.

Anyways, I can't imagine how you can even play the old afm version. The flipper shots are just so far off that it just zaps all the fun out. My centaur probably is too fast. I don't own any real games of that era.

[mukuste]

Thanks to BuckoBundy for providing me with a modded version of UncleWilly's Bride of Pinbot, which I've added to the physmod3 release post: http://www.vpforums....=18#entry263194

 

Also, a request. This thread used to be a development thread where people reported issues they found or made constructive suggestions. On the last few pages, the thread seems to have gotten bogged down in posts which either add nothing constructive to the discussion or boil down to "not impressed" or "not better than the old physics", which is really extremely discouraging to be honest. There's been so much noise that I find it harder and harder to find the few posts which actually contain bug reports and other constructive feedback. So I'd like to ask everyone to think for a second if what they're about to post really adds something to the discussion.

[boiydiego]

i realy want to try your phsysis but the crashcourse for the settings to follow on first page i dont get

1. Set your Gravity to 1, and keep it there.
2. Make sure the table slope is correctly set (6-6.5 on most modern tables)
3. Select the flippers and adjust the first two physics parameters: Speed (this is actually flipper mass) should be around 1-2, and Strength should be somewhere from 1000-3000. I like 1.25 and 1500 as starting values for experimentation. You'll likely also want to bump up the Elasticity to 0.8-0.9. The other parameters do nothing, ignore them.
4. Due to the extra energy needed to get the ball rolling, plungers, slingshots, bumpers, etc., typically all need to have their force upped by 20-40%.

 

cant this all be set in the preference -physics menu globaly for flippers or do i need to change somethink in the table itself ?

Edited by boiydiego, 01 May 2014 - 07:54 PM.

[mukuste]

This version of the guide is outdated, check the one linked in the physmod3 post.

 

Don't use the Physics Preferences, set everything per table.

[boiydiego]

thx for the reply mukuste , the tables from bigboss use physicsmod 2 so gone use that first to see how it goes , was there also another crashcourse for phsysicsmod 2 ?

Edited by boiydiego, 01 May 2014 - 08:15 PM.

[BigBoss]

thx for the reply mukuste , the tables from bigboss use physicsmod 2 so gone use that first to see how it goes , was there also another crashcourse for phsysicsmod 2 ?

It's about the same. You can use physmod3 also, but some of the tables might have mysterious issues with ramps. Seems about 2/3 worked with physmod3, but I don't like the ramp up value so I was setting it to 0, so I didnt benefit from physmod3 other than some rendering problems solved like text reels not showing in physmod2, but I don't think any of my tables use those.  So I'm probably permanent physmod2 user until vp10 comes out and real table authors start modifying tables - unless of course there's something really great on earlier releases. 

 

The conversion guide is about right.  Except speed is renamed to mass. I start with a flipper setting of:

Mass: 1

Str: 2400

Elasticity: 0.85

Friction: 0.8

Return Str: 0.09

 

Then I set Start angle, end angle. The table authors often really pitched these since VP sucked so bad at shooting the middle. You can get closer to where they should be now like start 122 end 72 (older dmd williams), start 122 end 70 (newer dmd) and end 68 for games where you need stronger backhands. Pitching flippers higher makes catching the ball too easy so it's better to have to work for it like in real pinball

 

 

This version of the guide is outdated, check the one linked in the physmod3 post.

 

Don't use the Physics Preferences, set everything per table.

This is really good advice.  

[unclewilly]

Thanks to BuckoBundy for providing me with a modded version of UncleWilly's Bride of Pinbot, which I've added to the physmod3 release post: http://www.vpforums....=18#entry263194
 
Also, a request. This thread used to be a development thread where people reported issues they found or made constructive suggestions. On the last few pages, the thread seems to have gotten bogged down in posts which either add nothing constructive to the discussion or boil down to "not impressed" or "not better than the old physics", which is really extremely discouraging to be honest. There's been so much noise that I find it harder and harder to find the few posts which actually contain bug reports and other constructive feedback. So I'd like to ask everyone to think for a second if what they're about to post really adds something to the discussion.

Nicely put.
Just want you to know I and the community appreciate the effort your putting in to vp development

[boiydiego]

 

thx for the reply mukuste , the tables from bigboss use physicsmod 2 so gone use that first to see how it goes , was there also another crashcourse for phsysicsmod 2 ?

It's about the same. You can use physmod3 also, but some of the tables might have mysterious issues with ramps. Seems about 2/3 worked with physmod3, but I don't like the ramp up value so I was setting it to 0, so I didnt benefit from physmod3 other than some rendering problems solved like text reels not showing in physmod2, but I don't think any of my tables use those.  So I'm probably permanent physmod2 user until vp10 comes out and real table authors start modifying tables - unless of course there's something really great on earlier releases. 

 

The conversion guide is about right.  Except speed is renamed to mass. I start with a flipper setting of:

Mass: 1

Str: 2400

Elasticity: 0.85

Friction: 0.8

Return Str: 0.09

 

Then I set Start angle, end angle. The table authors often really pitched these since VP sucked so bad at shooting the middle. You can get closer to where they should be now like start 122 end 72 (older dmd williams), start 122 end 70 (newer dmd) and end 68 for games where you need stronger backhands. Pitching flippers higher makes catching the ball too easy so it's better to have to work for it like in real pinball

 

 

This version of the guide is outdated, check the one linked in the physmod3 post.

 

Don't use the Physics Preferences, set everything per table.

This is really good advice.  

 

bigboss so in all your tables you allready set the 20%a40% to  plungers,slingshots, bumpers, etc.,and set the flippers also in your files ?

 

why did you use a old version of tables bigboss like medieval is old table?

[Pinball999]

Thanks to BuckoBundy for providing me with a modded version of UncleWilly's Bride of Pinbot, which I've added to the physmod3 release post: http://www.vpforums....=18#entry263194

 

Also, a request. This thread used to be a development thread where people reported issues they found or made constructive suggestions. On the last few pages, the thread seems to have gotten bogged down in posts which either add nothing constructive to the discussion or boil down to "not impressed" or "not better than the old physics", which is really extremely discouraging to be honest. There's been so much noise that I find it harder and harder to find the few posts which actually contain bug reports and other constructive feedback. So I'd like to ask everyone to think for a second if what they're about to post really adds something to the discussion.

 

If some of us think something is odd (for exemple too sudden direction changes), I believe it's  important to bring it to your attention, no?

I hope you are not referring to me when you say ""not better than the old physics"...

If you read my post correctly, you'll see that I see all the potential in the new physics, but at the moment, a few old tables are really working better than a new one not set correctly. Implying that the new physics are always better, is a lack of respect to the authors who put dozen of hours fine tuning their tables.

But this was just my opinion, and now I'll shut up if it's better.

[atarian]

The new physics certainly allow better flipper accuracy, ball control and you can see the 'momentum' like jimmyfingers achieved with his excellent BPMR routines. There are so many parameters and just like the old physics we all need to experiment. I have found (like others have implied) it is easier to get a good feel with this engine by just starting with the initial values suggested. I find that many of the tables I play in real life have a weighty heavy ball and the flippers are quite weak and it can be a struggle to hit the ball to the back of the table. I personally like this feel because it is what I am used to (ie: the French don't maintain the tables very well ), and I can achieve this feel with these physics. I have actually adjusted the flippers to 900 for Abra - way lower that what others have done but it feels real to me.

I also sensed not such a friendly tone developing in this thread, so we need to be more constructive. Muskuste has given us many parameters to play with so we need to help him find the best settings. I can't imagine the complexity of the mathematics muskuste has to work with and we are damn lucky to have someone with those skills who is well into his pinball.

[arngrim]

don't shut up, it is better to take our time and find a good compromise now, than review the all stuff in 6 months or more, and be in bigger pain to upgrade all tables.

[boiydiego]

having played few balls with vp phsysics test2 i like the green dots on the ball think i always gone play with them on the balls are more acurated to make better shots , on apollo13 i have lots of ballspin because of that the ball goes much to the outer pockets and losing the ball because of that is there a way to make the ball a little less spin? also for me making the postpasses are harder then with the old phsysics to do and when it does the ball goes fast over to other side making it harder to control , also the ball slides a bit fast over flipper is there something that can be set that the ball has more resistance from the flipper ?

Edited by boiydiego, 01 May 2014 - 09:25 PM.

[mukuste]

having played few balls with vp phsysics test2 i like the green dots on the ball think i always gone play with them on the balls are more acurated to make better shots , on apollo13 i have lots of ballspin because of that the ball goes much to the outer pockets and losing the ball because of that is there a way to make the ball less spin? also for me making the postpasses are harder then with the old phsysics to do and when it does the ball goes fast over to other side making it harder to control , also the ball slides a bit fast over flipper is there something that can be set that the ball has more resistance from the flipper ?

 

Implementing some resistance to the excessive spin around the vertical axis (I assume you mean this?) is something I still want to do.

 

Post passes may be harder (depending on the table and the flipper settings), but I think this is realistic.

 

I'm surprised that you find the ball to slip more over the flippers. I find exactly the opposite to be true, when I go back to VP9, I find the flippers there to be extremely slippery since they have no friction, while the flipper friction parameter in the new physics allows much better grip on the ball. So check the friction setting on your flippers and play with it, maybe you can find something that works better for you.

 

 

The new physics certainly allow better flipper accuracy, ball control and you can see the 'momentum' like jimmyfingers achieved with his excellent BPMR routines. There are so many parameters and just like the old physics we all need to experiment. I have found (like others have implied) it is easier to get a good feel with this engine by just starting with the initial values suggested. I find that many of the tables I play in real life have a weighty heavy ball and the flippers are quite weak and it can be a struggle to hit the ball to the back of the table. I personally like this feel because it is what I am used to (ie: the French don't maintain the tables very well ), and I can achieve this feel with these physics. I have actually adjusted the flippers to 900 for Abra - way lower that what others have done but it feels real to me.

 

This is a very good point; it may have to do with not well maintained flippers, but in general I think that the very fast flipper settings (3000 and up) which were popular early in this thread were too powerful. I'm happy to see that the community now seems to converge towards somewhat more moderate speeds around 2400 (unless Coil Ramp Up is used, in which case the Strength needs to be corrected up a bit). Maybe this trend will even continue a bit lower. For EM games, the settings should of course be still quite a bit lower, as you say.

[ringorian]

Thanks to BuckoBundy for providing me with a modded version of UncleWilly's Bride of Pinbot, which I've added to the physmod3 release post: http://www.vpforums....=18#entry263194

 

Also, a request. This thread used to be a development thread where people reported issues they found or made constructive suggestions. On the last few pages, the thread seems to have gotten bogged down in posts which either add nothing constructive to the discussion or boil down to "not impressed" or "not better than the old physics", which is really extremely discouraging to be honest. There's been so much noise that I find it harder and harder to find the few posts which actually contain bug reports and other constructive feedback. So I'd like to ask everyone to think for a second if what they're about to post really adds something to the discussion.

I tried the Bride of Pinbot and the 3rd skillshot hole eats the ball ... (100k)  

Wouldnt it be better to have some tables released like BOP in separated threads where people can discuss about it as they are done and you see straight about problems and how they can be solved ? 

I like it a lot when the physics are right like on BB ´s tables

Edited by ringorian, 01 May 2014 - 09:49 PM.

[mukuste]

mukuste:

 

The Coil Ramp Up thing seems to have some issues. I think others pointed out that when the ball hits the top of the flipper, it will bounce back more than you'd expect. I agree.
I see you can compensate for this effect by increasing strength and/or mass, but then you have an overpowered flipper that allows you to make shots that are not possible on the real table.

 

I'll link to a test table that I think shows the above effect pretty well: https://docs.google....LVZZOHF4cDFqdWM

Ramp up is at 2 on that table. I see no way to script a change in coil ramp up so you'll have to change it manually to see the different results. What I see is this:

 

Ramp up 0 = no effect (duh!)
Ramp up 1 = much more bounce than no Ramp Up
Ramp up 2 = slightly more bounce than Ramp up 1
Ramp up 3 = almost no change from Ramp up 2
Ramp up 4 and above = progressively less bounce

 

Things just don't seem natural there and it's a shame because the rest of the coil ramp up routine I like.

 

Thanks for the test table, as always those are very useful.

 

What happens here is that the ball pushes the flipper down a bit due to the weaker hold coil, then the higher-powered coil kicks in and pushes the ball back up. In general, I don't think this is completely unrealistic, although the effect seems exaggerated. This also doesn't seem to be specific to the Ramp Up setting, it also happens (though maybe a bit less pronounced) if you simply make the flipper weaker to begin with.

 

What I'll try as a first step for the next release is to increase the hold coil strength from 1/3 to 2/3; this reduces the effect a bit since the flipper doesn't get pushed down so far in the first place. Unfortunately I have no idea how much weaker the hold coil is in real life. But we'll see if this is enough or we need to tweak the flipper response in some other way.

[BuckoBundy]

 

I tried the Bride of Pinbot and the 3rd skillshot hole eats the ball ... (100k)

 

Bleh. I see this now too. Thanks for spotting that one.

I'll try to fix this but gosh.. the ramp fixes that physmod3 has, leads to all sorts of problems. It exposes the flaws in the older physics that people used to base these tables on.

 

I also have to say that I am nowhere near as talented (and patient) as those authors are when it comes to tweaking a table and make it feel just right. I simply want to have some tables out there that use the new physics so that those that do not like to mess around with settings can get a feel for it.

Edited by BuckoBundy, 01 May 2014 - 10:42 PM.