4035 replies to this topic

[Gravy]

 

@Toxie, I have a suggestion to add a ball texture rotation option so that it correctly follows table inclination.

See suggestion thread at https://www.vpforums...showtopic=51071

 

The issue is that the ball does not feature a 'true' reflection of the surroundings, and actually not even employs a real environment map, like e.g. the one that is used for the lighting of the table.

It's just a pure 2D image. This was done by design, as artists and users can much simpler pick a ball image this way. The downside is that things like changing camera or table (or in VR) is not reflected (pun intended) in the ball.
 

 

Yeah I understand that it's not a true reflection but I feel the realism could be enhanced if the texture correctly rotated to match the table inclination. The texture used in this case is 2:1 ratio so I assume that it is wrapping around the entire ball, not just a 1:1 image covering the visible ball area. As such, would it be possible to adjust the rotation of this 2:1 texture so that table inclination was matched?

Not sure if you have looked at the thread I linked to above but hopefully I explained it a little better there if you have a moment to read? 

Edited by Gravy, 19 March 2023 - 12:20 AM.

[wiesshund]

The issue is that the ball does not feature a 'true' reflection of the surroundings, and actually not even employs a real environment map, like e.g. the one that is used for the lighting of the table.
It's just a pure 2D image. This was done by design, as artists and users can much simpler pick a ball image this way. The downside is that things like changing camera or table (or in VR) is not reflected (pun intended) in the ball.

.

Yeah I understand that it's not a true reflection but I feel the realism could be enhanced if the texture correctly rotated to match the table inclination. The texture used in this case is 2:1 ratio so I assume that it is wrapping around the entire ball, not just a 1:1 image covering the visible ball area. As such, would it be possible to adjust the rotation of this 2:1 texture so that table inclination was matched?

Not sure if you have looked at the thread I linked to above but hopefully I explained it a little better there if you have a moment to read? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sort of confused what is being disussed here?

best i can tell, anyways, ball seems to be reflecting things fairly accurately?
have to purposely shove the ball around by hand to examine it.
and what is seen on the top of the ball, the reflection, that is what is in my environment image.

It seems to be doing what i would expect it to do?

 

Edited by wiesshund, 19 March 2023 - 09:31 AM.

[Gravy]

 

The issue is that the ball does not feature a 'true' reflection of the surroundings, and actually not even employs a real environment map, like e.g. the one that is used for the lighting of the table.
It's just a pure 2D image. This was done by design, as artists and users can much simpler pick a ball image this way. The downside is that things like changing camera or table (or in VR) is not reflected (pun intended) in the ball.

.

Yeah I understand that it's not a true reflection but I feel the realism could be enhanced if the texture correctly rotated to match the table inclination. The texture used in this case is 2:1 ratio so I assume that it is wrapping around the entire ball, not just a 1:1 image covering the visible ball area. As such, would it be possible to adjust the rotation of this 2:1 texture so that table inclination was matched?

Not sure if you have looked at the thread I linked to above but hopefully I explained it a little better there if you have a moment to read? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sort of confused what is being disussed here?

best i can tell, anyways, ball seems to be reflecting things fairly accurately?
have to purposely shove the ball around by hand to examine it.
and what is seen on the top of the ball, the reflection, that is what is in my environment image.

It seems to be doing what i would expect it to do?

 

 

Best to discuss it at the following thread but the issue really only becomes evident when table inclination is adjusted to top down cabinet mode (as can be seen in the video I posted in the thread below)

https://www.vpforums...showtopic=51071

[wiesshund]

the environment follows the camera too

 

if you make a really funky environment that you would never actually use on a table
you can see it move also when changing the POV.

Guess that is just how the camera is set up?
I guess it kind of makes sense?

 

You can tinker with different environments to get rid of the pronounced effect you are seeing.

[Gravy]

the environment follows the camera too

 

if you make a really funky environment that you would never actually use on a table
you can see it move also when changing the POV.

Guess that is just how the camera is set up?
I guess it kind of makes sense?

 

You can tinker with different environments to get rid of the pronounced effect you are seeing.

It doesn't really make sense to me as my brain is expecting to see the ceiling reflected in the top of the ball if my viewpoint is directly above the table looking down on the top of the ball (cabinet view), but in this case I am seeing something unexpected.

I feel like when we make adjustments to the POV, it is actually the table itself that is moving in space and the camera viewpoint and environment is staying in a fixed position. Not sure if this is actually what is happening though.

Edited by Gravy, 19 March 2023 - 11:45 PM.

[wiesshund]

 

the environment follows the camera too

 

if you make a really funky environment that you would never actually use on a table
you can see it move also when changing the POV.

Guess that is just how the camera is set up?
I guess it kind of makes sense?

 

You can tinker with different environments to get rid of the pronounced effect you are seeing.

It doesn't really make sense to me as my brain is expecting to see the ceiling reflected in the top of the ball if my viewpoint is directly above the table looking down on the top of the ball (cabinet view), but in this case I am seeing something unexpected.

I feel like when we make adjustments to the POV, it is actually the table itself that is moving in space and the camera viewpoint and environment is staying in a fixed position. Not sure if this is actually what is happening though.

 

 

It makes sense from the render engines standpoint.
The table does not budge.
Imagine the table is in the middle of a big sphere.

The camera is mounted in a gantry suspended from the inside of the sphere

The environment is projected in the sphere, centered around the camera mount.

The light source is suspended on a mount in front of the camera

I doubt that is entirely accurate from a programming standpoint, but it kind of gives a visual idea.
If you go drive around in freelook mode a bit, you will see what i mean (especially when you lose the table)

 

But you can use different environments to get rid of that effect you are seeing.
You have to play around some and see what works on a given table.

 

Try JP's chrome ball as an environment sometime

[Gravy]

It makes sense from the render engines standpoint.

The table does not budge.
Imagine the table is in the middle of a big sphere.

 

The camera is mounted in a gantry suspended from the inside of the sphere

The environment is projected in the sphere, centered around the camera mount.

The light source is suspended on a mount in front of the camera

I doubt that is entirely accurate from a programming standpoint, but it kind of gives a visual idea.
If you go drive around in freelook mode a bit, you will see what i mean (especially when you lose the table)

 

But you can use different environments to get rid of that effect you are seeing.
You have to play around some and see what works on a given table.

 

Try JP's chrome ball as an environment sometime

 

I think we'll need to agree to disagree on this one as the end result is something that looks unnatural to my eye. I agree that the effect is mitigated by using different ball textures/environment but I think the underlying issue still exists.

A question though, let's say you are in a room suspended directly above the pinball table, looking directly down on the top of the ball. For the sake of the argument, you are invisible so can't see your own reflection. What would you expect to see reflected in the dead centre of the top of the ball, the ceiling or the windows of the room?

I'm not sure if you checked the video I posted?

Edited by Gravy, 20 March 2023 - 03:53 AM.

[toxie]

As said, don't take the balls as reference at the moment. These do not feature 'real' view dependent reflections, but are more comparable to simple 2D images.

This could be changed, so that one needs to supply a environment map similar to what is used for lighting, but at the moment this is not the case.

[Gravy]

As said, don't take the balls as reference at the moment. These do not feature 'real' view dependent reflections, but are more comparable to simple 2D images.

This could be changed, so that one needs to supply a environment map similar to what is used for lighting, but at the moment this is not the case.

Yes I read your original message regarding this, not sure if you read my response at https://www.vpforums...=44135&p=516417

My suggestion for a faked fix was for implementation of a new feature that would check the POV for table inclination value and adjust the wrapping of the 2:1 360 degree ball texture around a newly defined ball equator (with more appropriate value based on table inclination). Not sure if this would be easier or harder to implement than your environment map solution?

Basically the current method looks/works fine for desktop view but when table inclination is changed to overhead cabinet view, the visual illusion of pseudo room reflection breaks because the horizon line cuts incorrectly across the top of the ball. This is more evident with some ball textures than others but I think the visual inaccuracy exists to a degree with most/all tables (including the default ball image <None>).

I had wanted to keep this conversation confined to the suggestion thread at https://www.vpforums...showtopic=51071 to save clogging up this beta thread, but that doesn't seem to have happened. 

I don't want to keep flogging a dead horse but perhaps a picture will tell a thousand words:

 balltexturesuggestion.jpg   31.91KB   8 downloads
 

Edited by Gravy, 23 March 2023 - 12:14 PM.

[Drybonz]

Hey guys... I'm interested in checking out the 10.8 pre-release... was just wondering if there is a brief summary of major feature changes listed anywhere?  I didn't see anything like that on the github page.  Thanks.

[Thalamus]

@Drybonz : Look inside the txt folder. Changelog.txt pr. example is only 3 days old. If you need the very low details, install a git client and clone the repo. After that, 'git log' is your friend.

[Drybonz]

Thanks, Thalamus... I just read over it.

[soulchip]

 

 

Table has been on auto play for almost 3 hours (and the only time i will EVER roll the score board LOL)

this is with at91jit on.

 

I will try it later with it off.

I know we do not need it now, but i guess is kind of nice to know what state it is in, since it probably does not get tested much as a whole package.

 

Of course, when you guys start getting 8k playfield screens....  
 

What is the autoplay ?

 

 

i rigged the table to play itself

 

Sadly, it was much more impressive than my playing

 

 

Can you please explain me how did you do that? I really need it to film a movie for Black Knight 2000.

[wiesshund]

 

 

 

Table has been on auto play for almost 3 hours (and the only time i will EVER roll the score board LOL)

this is with at91jit on.

 

I will try it later with it off.

I know we do not need it now, but i guess is kind of nice to know what state it is in, since it probably does not get tested much as a whole package.

 

Of course, when you guys start getting 8k playfield screens....  
 

What is the autoplay ?

 

 

i rigged the table to play itself

 

Sadly, it was much more impressive than my playing

 

 

Can you please explain me how did you do that? I really need it to film a movie for Black Knight 2000.

 

Not very well i am afraid
triggers to auto fire flippers
and some to nudge ball away from outlanes
a couple to try and nudge ball away from a straight drain shot, if you hit them in sequence
and one to fire plunger if ball appears in shooter lane.

 

Not very good AI playing

[Wylte]

@toxie a pretty wild example of unintended shadows in 3rdaxis' Grand Lizard
https://www.vpforums...&showfile=13713

[toxie]

@Drybonz : Look inside the txt folder. Changelog.txt pr. example is only 3 days old. If you need the very low details, install a git client and clone the repo. After that, 'git log' is your friend.

Thanks, yes, for convenience: https://github.com/v...t/Changelog.txt

[Drybonz]

I hate to ask this, but could someone be good enough to tell me where the latest pinmame betas are kept these days?  Thanks for your help.

[Thalamus]

right now ... it is : https://github.com/v...runs/4519561702 (you need to register and login to github.com in order to download those)

 

You want the 'sc' build. That is ... lets call it Stern Color or something

Edited by Thalamus, 31 March 2023 - 06:02 PM.

[Drybonz]

Thank you, sir.

[Gravy]

Just having a look at the new live edit mode for 10.8, and the live editor camera looks to be a total game changer for table designers, I can't even imagine how much time that is going to save creators when it comes to being able to rotate the table to a side on view or low angle front view and see the changes to the z height/position of objects in realtime.

Took me a while to realise you can grab the little square at the top right to adjust the live editor camera view. I'm still having problems trying to figure out how to adjust roll though once it gets off centre. Mouse wheel adjusts zoom if anyone is wondering how.