70 replies to this topic

[hungrybay101]

 

 

I do understand this.

the matter of the fact is that Bigus says he asked and got no "no" reply.

I think, like I said, that Bigus is a fair and square and always gives props its due.

obviously if someones says, for reasons that are his, "I don't want this table to be modded" then yes it should be respected as it is and no questions asked.

 

here, not the case apparently. Bigus did his due diliegence and asked.

 

Again, it does not matter what someone's conceived notions are of the person who modded the table. It is an unauthorized mod (as you indicated) because Bigus got a no. In fact, ignorance can no longer be argued if Bigus asked and got a no, which makes me even more skeptical of them.

 

Edit: Misread: I thought the "no no" was a typo and you meant "a no". Still, if someone asks and does not get a no reply, that is not an automatic yes. It falls within the same realm of not asking at all (because a response was not received). So it is still an unauthorized mod.

 

 

We actually have a 30 day rule here. No response, have at it. People come and go, but the hobby lives on.

 

Oh, I was unaware of that. That negates what I said if Bigus waited the 30 days. Thank you for clarifying that up.

Edited by hungrybay101, 08 April 2021 - 01:39 PM.

[jino0372]

@Darkiller - Not meant to be a mean post.  Well...maybe a little mean but not directed at you.  I brought up a valid concern.  Something is wrong if all of these long time contributors are leaving.  I am concerned and having the attitude of "good riddance"  just makes these concerns valid.  

 

Why is there the permission to mod option when sharing a table?  It appears that the person sharing can state "yes, with approval" and that can simply be ignored. 

 

I know we are all using this code from this person or that image from someone else who I never heard off but if we are going down that path then with every table release we need to also credit the original creators of visual pinball...and lets not forget Microsoft and the team behind Windows...VBScripts...DirectX....etc...and there's no Visual Pinball without computers so lets credit everyone from the beginning to now involved there...and there was no one to create computers without electricity and plastics so lets credit them....and lets not forget God almighty for creating everything.  Instead of pages and pages of credits...let credit the person with the recent significant change to the work that was already out there.  

 

With that said....is this a significant change?  I don't believe so...but that is my opinion.  I should be able to state my opinion.  You and others believe it is a significant change.  That's your opinion and...while I disagree...I respect it.

[Noah Fentz]

@Darkiller - Not meant to be a mean post.  Well...maybe a little mean but not directed at you.  I brought up a valid concern.  Something is wrong if all of these long time contributors are leaving.  I am concerned and having the attitude of "good riddance"  just makes these concerns valid.  

 

Why is there the permission to mod option when sharing a table?  It appears that the person sharing can state "yes, with approval" and that can simply be ignored. 

 

I know we are all using this code from this person or that image from someone else who I never heard off but if we are going down that path then with every table release we need to also credit the original creators of visual pinball...and lets not forget Microsoft and the team behind Windows...VBScripts...DirectX....etc...and there's no Visual Pinball without computers so lets credit everyone from the beginning to now involved there...and there was no one to create computers without electricity and plastics so lets credit them....and lets not forget God almighty for creating everything.  Instead of pages and pages of credits...let credit the person with the recent significant change to the work that was already out there.  

 

With that said....is this a significant change?  I don't believe so...but that is my opinion.  I should be able to state my opinion.  You and others believe it is a significant change.  That's your opinion and...while I disagree...I respect it.

 

Sadly, the permission to MOD system is a little broken. It allows anyone to take a table that's freely given, with no strings, MOD it, then lock it down with 'MINE'.

 

That's not at all the spirit of its intent.

 

Once it's freely given, it's not right to lock it down, IMO.

 

Many of you won't know, and some not remember (LOL), the period of time in this hobby (around 2005?) where people were giving freely to MOD and some authors would use the, now non-existent, table lock feature. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

[jino0372]

 

@Darkiller - Not meant to be a mean post.  Well...maybe a little mean but not directed at you.  I brought up a valid concern.  Something is wrong if all of these long time contributors are leaving.  I am concerned and having the attitude of "good riddance"  just makes these concerns valid.  

 

Why is there the permission to mod option when sharing a table?  It appears that the person sharing can state "yes, with approval" and that can simply be ignored. 

 

I know we are all using this code from this person or that image from someone else who I never heard off but if we are going down that path then with every table release we need to also credit the original creators of visual pinball...and lets not forget Microsoft and the team behind Windows...VBScripts...DirectX....etc...and there's no Visual Pinball without computers so lets credit everyone from the beginning to now involved there...and there was no one to create computers without electricity and plastics so lets credit them....and lets not forget God almighty for creating everything.  Instead of pages and pages of credits...let credit the person with the recent significant change to the work that was already out there.  

 

With that said....is this a significant change?  I don't believe so...but that is my opinion.  I should be able to state my opinion.  You and others believe it is a significant change.  That's your opinion and...while I disagree...I respect it.

 

Sadly, the permission to MOD system is a little broken. It allows anyone to take a table that's freely given, with no strings, MOD it, then lock it down with 'MINE'.

 

That's not at all the spirit of its intent.

 

Once it's freely given, it's not right to lock it down, IMO.

 

Many of you won't know, and some not remember (LOL), the period of time in this hobby (around 2005?) where people were giving freely to MOD and some authors would use the, now non-existent, table lock feature. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

 

 

I agree.  No one should take a table and "MOD" it and then not give permission ever to change it.  Especially when they were given permission to do their work.  I guess the issue is the definition of a "MOD".  Is this defined here or on anywhere?  I believe the root cause of the frustration people have is because some people view a MOD differently than others.  I believe if this is defined...then that would alleviate the issue.  For example...everyone understands the difference between a VPX Original and a VPX Recreation.  But for MOD's...I think it is up to interpretation and anything left to interpretation usually leads to misunderstands, confusion, anger, and resentment.

 

As the admin for this site...will you please provide a guideline for what is an acceptable MOD to a table.  If that has already been done.  I apologize and I will search for that post.  Thanks!

[Noah Fentz]

A MOD is any table using others' work as a start point.

 

You constantly hear how many hours this hobby takes, and it does. I spent 3.5 months on T2. I get it. That begs the question ... what about all the hours invested by those who created that start point?

 

Nothing is 'MINE' in this hobby, at least not on this site. This site is, and always has been, intended to be a GROUP effort, and cooperative. We're all here for the same cause. You don't see that much on the other sites impersonating the 'VP community'.

 

A portion of the GROUP effort here didn't like the rules, so they 'unionized' and started their own sites. I wouldn't look to their rules as a reflection of what this community is all about.

[Thalamus]

I don't get it. How hard is it to ask the previous author for permission each and every time ? Sure, if they have left the community, then I think it fair game. But, one hasn't left the community after 30 days. I've got more than 30 days that I can take off from work currently mostly because of Covid

 

32a is very active in our community, so not seeing him here in 30 days would be a surprise to me, but, not any more ??

 

I shipped 32a a PM on Discord with a link to a mod that I have of his work the other day, telling him, either you publish it, or it won't get out to community. Thanking him for creating it in the first place. If he doesn't like it, I'm totally fine with him not publishing it. I've got my copy. I think that is always the best way of handling these kind of things.

[Noah Fentz]

A MOD is any table using others' work as a start point.

 

You constantly hear how many hours this hobby takes, and it does. I spent 3.5 months on T2. I get it. That begs the question ... what about all the hours invested by those who created that start point?

 

Nothing is 'MINE' in this hobby, at least not on this site. This site is, and always has been, intended to be a GROUP effort, and cooperative. We're all here for the same cause. You don't see that much on the other sites impersonating the 'VP community'.

 

A portion of the GROUP effort here didn't like the rules, so they 'unionized' and started their own sites. I wouldn't look to their rules as a reflection of what this community is all about.

 

 

I don't get it. How hard is it to ask the previous author for permission each and every time ? Sure, if they have left the community, then I think it fair game. But, one hasn't left the community after 30 days. I've got more than 30 days that I can take off from work currently mostly because of Covid

 

32a is very active in our community, so not seeing him here in 30 days would be a surprise to me, but, not any more ??

 

I shipped 32a a PM on Discord with a link to a mod that I have of his work the other day, telling him, either you publish it, or it won't get out to community. Thanking him for creating it in the first place. If he doesn't like it, I'm totally fine with him not publishing it. I've got my copy. I think that is always the best way of handling these kind of things.

 

I think you missed the point? A table that's freely given to MOD is freely given. No permission needed, including MODs of that freely given table. Locking down something freely given because you moved it forward or made it better is contrary to the community effort this site represents.

[fripounet]

je ré édite mon questionnement , pourquoi dans ce genre de forum il n'y a aucunes femmes ? à la lecture de vos post j'ai ma réponse.

 reprenez vos pelles et seaux pour jouer ailleurs.

[user42]

I did create a few tables back in the VP9 era, and I did ask for permissions. But I think the whole concept is stupid. We don't own any of this. We are all using other peoples IP and we are all standing on the shoulders of those who came before. Trying to claim that you, and only you, own it wrong. This is a hobby not a business.

 

That said I would hate to see 32assassin leave. He does great work and I appreciate everything he has done.

And I can say the same for Bigus.

 

Why can't we all just get along....

[Badazzwi]

I won't get into my opinion of what's right and wrong here.

I just want to say in my mind 32assassin is a legend in this community who has released so many tables and worked on countless others for us all to enjoy.

He deserves much respect from all of us.

Edited by Badazzwi, 08 April 2021 - 05:18 PM.

[destruk]

Hello guys.  After many years of thought on this, what, decades now? If you think deep down at the main motivation for doing anything creative, it's to promote the enjoyment of the game. It is passion, it is love, it's the desire to bring the fun that pinball is to more people to get them involved in the game, to build the excitement can experience with these machines, and to make them accessible to help prevent the hobby from dying out. That being said there is a balance of human respect - even with the greatest philanthropic pure intentions, great passion can come with great strife. And it can hurt sometimes.  What it ultimately comes down to is respect for your fellow person or hobbyist, or musician, or anyone who helped you along the way.  You wouldn't be able to modify that item without their initial work. I could spend hours on something, upload it to youtube, announce it with fanfare and explain my reasoning all I want, but if the original creator, the person who provided the base I worked with says no, then I have to take it down and youtube has to take it down.  It's basically the same here. Am I upset it happens, yes, because of all the time and effort I put in, but ultimately, it is the moral and ethical conclusion. -- if you mod a table without permission, don't antagonize them by uploading your modification - you should probably do like Thalamus and let the original people know in a direct message, and then let them either approve or reject it. You still keep your work for yourself if you feel like it, or things will go bad and everyone gets hurt.

I will just add, modifying a table with or without permission, and then locking down further modifications - well, that's just you being an asshole and you should deserve whatever comes from that, as you are also locking down the previous creator's work whom you got permission to use, you are now removing that permission of that original work from your current copy.

[Thalamus]

Finally someone with common sense ! <3

[jino0372]

Hello guys.  After many years of thought on this, what, decades now? If you think deep down at the main motivation for doing anything creative, it's to promote the enjoyment of the game. It is passion, it is love, it's the desire to bring the fun that pinball is to more people to get them involved in the game, to build the excitement can experience with these machines, and to make them accessible to help prevent the hobby from dying out. That being said there is a balance of human respect - even with the greatest philanthropic pure intentions, great passion can come with great strife. And it can hurt sometimes.  What it ultimately comes down to is respect for your fellow person or hobbyist, or musician, or anyone who helped you along the way.  You wouldn't be able to modify that item without their initial work. I could spend hours on something, upload it to youtube, announce it with fanfare and explain my reasoning all I want, but if the original creator, the person who provided the base I worked with says no, then I have to take it down and youtube has to take it down.  It's basically the same here. Am I upset it happens, yes, because of all the time and effort I put in, but ultimately, it is the moral and ethical conclusion. -- if you mod a table without permission, don't antagonize them by uploading your modification - you should probably do like Thalamus and let the original people know in a direct message, and then let them either approve or reject it. You still keep your work for yourself if you feel like it, or things will go bad and everyone gets hurt.

I will just add, modifying a table with or without permission, and then locking down further modifications - well, that's just you being an asshole and you should deserve whatever comes from that, as you are also locking down the previous creator's work whom you got permission to use, you are now removing that permission of that original work from your current copy.

 

Post of the year!

[wiesshund]

 

 

With that said....is this a significant change?  

 

Eye of the beholder

I deny significant change an any table i have uploaded
And you are free to put the original script side by side with mine and debate it
but i will still deny that the change is really significant  and that the table still belongs to the original author, unless he/she has vanished
and you need to ask them to mod, not me. (Unless they vanished)

 

Want to Mod Heavy Metal?
Ask Destruk, his table not mine, he only let me borrow it a bit.

Edited by wiesshund, 08 April 2021 - 11:49 PM.

[Rajo Joey]

But think of it: if the authors don't like the mods and leave the house, there are no more tables and also no more mods.
And if there is no rule for mods, I change the plunger settings in all tables and release the tables under my name. And I write, I do a makeover.
That can't be. Easiest way is, the authors say: No mod allowed!

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[akiles50000]

For the same reason that Destruk says, I don't let my tables be modified.
If Bigus or someone else wants to modify my tables or in which I collaborate with my graphics, they can do it but ONLY in a private plan to play on their virtual pinball or pc but without upload to internet to share it.

 

Because if not at the end all the tables will have the name of Bigus or other person only to change four pictures or lights in the table and that can,t be taking advantage of all the effort and hours of work of the original creator of the table.

Edited by akiles50000, 10 April 2021 - 08:33 AM.

[wiesshund]

For the same reason that Destruk says, I don't let my tables be modified.
If Bigus or someone else wants to modify my tables or in which I collaborate with my graphics, they can do it but ONLY in a private plan to play on their virtual pinball or pc but without upload to internet to share it.

 

Because if not at the end all the tables will have the name of Bigus or other person only to change four pictures or lights in the table and that can,t be taking advantage of all the effort and hours of work of the original creator of the table.

 

I dont think he said dont let tables be modified.

If that was the case, there would be no VPX version of heavy metal, because that was his VP9 table, and i specifically got his permission to mod it.

And it was not getting uploaded with out his OK.

 

I have quite a few other VPX tables that do not otherwise exist for VPX, but are not uploaded, because the authors are either present on one site or another but do not answer
or have flat out said no, they do not wish the table to be converted or rebuilt.

Now i uploaded jungle queen in a playable but ready for a beauty makeover state because, i can not even find the author any more, on any of the sites
and no one knew where he had gone off to.

And if he magically pops back into existence and asks, i will delete it too.

[bigus1]

I guess not too many of you have been motivated to check-out author profiles like I have, but I can tell you that if modding was banned, practically none of your superstar authors would have made a start. Check for yourself.  And save the mouthing-off about what I do to tables if you don't have a clue. There are some that do stuff-all in their mods and publish them, and my earlier ones weren't that much either, but you can't start at the top. The main thing I strive to do is to make the tables work properly. And when I fix a game-ending flaw, that's a significant change in anyone's language. Like this one. I know that there's not a lot of room for improvement in a table of this caliber, appearance wise, but I try to give that a lift as well. And I don't use the slider or LUTs for a lazy lighting mod. I spent maybe 50 hours on that Earthquake Institute toy, trying to get the lighting to look like in the videos and I think it was time well spent - well, I like it anyway.

If a table looks realistic and plays properly, then there's nothing for me to do and I don't mod it.  You haven't seen a Firepower mod from me for that reason, even though it's listed as my favorite table. If some folks don't want to share their toys, that's fine - the majority of authors seem happy to share and there's plenty to keep me occupied. I make reasonable efforts to contact the authors that require approval, and follow policy otherwise. If someone says I can mod their tables with whatever conditions, I take that at face value and don't feel that I'm required to (try to) contact them each time. I have been given several blanket approvals from top authors.

And btw, I get no advantage whatsoever from doing this. None.  And I'm not taking either.

[Noah Fentz]

But think of it: if the authors don't like the mods and leave the house, there are no more tables and also no more mods.
And if there is no rule for mods, I change the plunger settings in all tables and release the tables under my name. And I write, I do a makeover.
That can't be. Easiest way is, the authors say: No mod allowed!

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There were maybe 6 or so authors in 2009, when we put this site together. If authors quit, more will take their place, I assure you. Changing this ridiculously controlling, and taking and not giving back, attitude, the hobby will only improve. Maybe it'll actually be a hobby again someday, and not this silly, political minefield it's become.

[gregh43]

Wow sounds like little children fighting over who took their candy.. Can I Mod the Guns n Roses table?? I know nothing about editing tables but it sure needs some work done to it.