37 replies to this topic

[watacaractr]

Cool add-ons. BTW, that's a helluva nice sample table you have displayed on your cab, as well.

[SimoBigs]

I'm using an LEDwiz with solid state relays

If I was doing it today I would use this - Pinscape All-in-One  -- https://www.vpforums...topic=43173&hl=

 

 

Just because it's non-working doesn't mean to power supply don't work

Has far is the flippers if you hold them only the secondary coil is being used
On older machines they uses a coil that actually had 2 coils inside of it,  There is an switch on the flipper mechanism that would cut out the high power part of the coil And on the newer machines they do it through the electronics
I remount it the mechanisms on some half inch plywood and mounted them under the TV

Because i used the original power supply 43v, circuit board with all the original Solenoids,  I have one fuse for all Solenoids
I tested a few of the solenoids and some pulled 5 + amps when held on that's why when it's solid state relays at the time
Like bord said You don't necessarily need full voltage To make everything work good

 

 

Sorry I have left out some information.

The Gottlieb I bought only had the case (with legs lockbar etc.) and playfield, all cards, DMD, and power supply had been removed. For this reason I am trying to figure out how much power I need to make all the solenoids work.
Yes, I confirm that the flippers have 2 coils, but the primary coil is very powerful and is a coil with a resistance of 3.85 ohm which means that at 50v they are 13A for an absorption of 650W. (only for a fraction of a second because then the second coil comes into play, but the peak is 650W)

This is what I am trying to understand, as I have several coils:
(please note that I only have the resistance and voltage info, the amps and power I got them with formulas I=V/ohm and W=amp x V, I think and hope  they are right)

2x flippers       -  A 25959 - 3.85/202 ohm @50V   -  13/0.24 amps  -  650/14,5W (primary / secondary coil)

2x slingshots   -  A 5195   - 11           ohm @50V   -   4.5 amps        -  227 W
3x bumpers     -  A 16570 -  15.5       ohm @48V   -   3.1 amps        - 148.8 W  
3x ot. bumpers - A 36451 -  65.8       ohm @50V   -   0.76 amps      - 38 W
 

and considering that during a multiball they can turn on several at the same time, how do I establish the necessary size of the power supply ? 
Because taking the worst case: two flippers operated simultaneously and at the same instant two bumpers operated at the same time I would have a peak of 650+650+227+227 = 1754 W (@50v) (?!)

 

That's probably not exactly how it works, my electronics knowledge ends there.

From what I seem to understand, I think the Mosfets help to give the correct current to the toys and therefore there is no need for all that energy at the same time. But I still have the doubt, how to calculate the correct size of the power supply?
I think, but I'm not sure, that if I have less power they will be weaker.

 

I'm not an electrician so I can't help you with the math but that seems wrong. I'm running all real pinball mechs through a pinscape and powering it with a PC power supply. 12v for now. Could switch to a 24v PS if I felt I was missing something. No problems whatsoever with a 600W PS.

 

I kind of copied what I saw in a lot of You Tube videos with the simple-guy approach. My power supply for my 8 toys is 12v. So my coils are rated at 12v running off the Sainsmart 8 Board. I have 2 flipper coils, 2 slingshot coils 2 pop bumper coils, 1 Stern Spike Shaker Motor (throttled down to 5v) and, 1 knocker coil from a real pinball machine. All the toys are positioned in the cabinet so they sound like they are coming from the right locations. Now I did grab some real pinball coils and pop bumpers from the old parts table at Pin-A-Go-Go, but very few would actually trigger with 12v, most of them wanted upwards of 48v. The knocker is the only one that would trigger @ 12v. I am taking my source 12v from the 12v power lead on the PC power supply.

 

Depending on what path you take it will always be smart to put diodes on your toys so de-energized current does not flow back to your control board in the reverse direction. Good Luck & Have Fun .... it makes the cabinet very convincing to have the toys in it.

I confirm that all the solenoids have already a diode
Using lower voltages would certainly help me reduce consumption, but I would also have a weak effect. I haven't completely ruled it out yet, but I'd like to try to feed them at the correct voltage (48V instead of 50V, but it's almost the same anyway) to have an authentic effect.
 

If I was doing it today I would use this - Pinscape All-in-One  -- https://www.vpforums...topic=43173&hl=

Even at the beginning I thought of using the AIO, but at the moment I'm evaluating the best solution.

The alternative could be the pinscape + expansion board (which I can buy here in europe) or another solution that involves the use of mosfet4 cards controlled directly by KL25Z:


Once I understand the power supply sizing, my second problem remains how to connect them?

From the specifications of the pinscape expansion board it seems that the maximum connectable is 4A @ 60V, does this mean that the flippers which are 13A @ 50v can't connect to them? what happens if i connect them anyway?

The alternative of the system with mofset 4 controlled directly by the KL25Z is that the IRF540 (according to specification), it would seem that it is able to command up to 33A @ 100V.

is this 33A @ 100V mofset really necessary or can I still control them with the pinscape or with the AIO?

Perhaps, on this issue, maybe MJR or MikePinball could help to understand the operating logic of these cards.
 

Edited by SimoBigs, 17 September 2020 - 04:06 PM.

[MikePinball]

The Pincape AIO can take a sustained 8A and the MOSFET a sustained 13.6A. For short durations is can take more power than that. The Pinscape Lite can only take a sustained 4A because it has less copper to carry the current.

 

I would seriously look at whether you really need 48V. You can halve the current by only using 24V (or even 12V). Unless you know what you are doing these huge currents can kill !! That's why real pinball tables have a lockout feature when you open the coin door that turns off the 48V feed.

 

OutThere probably has the most experience with this stuff.

[wiesshund]

^^^
I am thinking along the same lines.

You are not operating a pinball machine.
You have no flippers to move, no kickers to kick, no steel ball to propel or targets to reset or slingshots to run.

 

I see no advantage to running high power 48 volt circuits that no longer have a reason for existing.

A Flipper coil could be 48v @ 600 watts for the primary coil.
But you are not trying to move a flipper, you are just trying to make some noise and vibration.

 

Pinball machines run some hefty power supplies and some beefy circuits for switching those currents, but that is simply because they have to.

 

1 600 watt flipper coil primary @48v DC is 12.5 amps (different tables use different coils), for just that one coil if i am figuring correctly
Now figure So firing off 2 of those, now factor in what other coils you have in mind and it adds up fast.

 

If you really want to do that, besides being super careful because 48v DC @ 50 amps will quickly put you in a coffin, and cook anything it touched during an Oopsie,  I would probably have your controller simply do the switching with small low voltage relays and leave all the high powered stuff isolated on it's own circuits, so none of that power or draw ever goes through your actual controller.
Then If a coil shorts and fries or something weird happens, your controller wont care, it wont even know.

 

You are probably looking at something like this for power, though you could probably run a smaller one cause you would be running less stuff, maybe a 600.
Me myself, i would go with a lot lower voltage and amp draw stuff.
Dont need a 48 volt 13 amp coil to make noise and vibrate the cabinet, that's all going to be mostly based on what you stick on the plunger end and what you hit it against

[SimoBigs]

Thanks guys for your feedback.

 

I know the voltages I speak of can kill and I had already thought about using a door switch to disable 48V every time I open the cabinet.

 

The choice to use 48V comes from the opinion that I have made documenting myself in recent months where I have read about many who use 48V for Knockers to have a louder noise in order to have an "original" noise. I've also read about techniques for making solenoids louder based what I stick on the plunger end and what hit it agains, but initially I thought it would be easier to power them at the right voltage and have the right noise, rather than trying and trying different materials. I hadn't come to terms with consumption and total installed power!

 

Anyway, I think the most sensible thing is to do some tests at 24 / 12V and hear the noises produced and if possible use these voltages in order to be safer.

 

However it is not clear to me if my assumption for the correct sizing of the power supply is correct. I would like to buy the right power supply and avoid buying an excessively large one or having to add others because it is not enough.

 

Is it correct to size the power supply, considering the sum of the load of the 3 or 4 largest solenoids, in order to hypothesize their simultaneous activation during a multiball?

If I were to have a current demand greater than that available, the result is that one or more solenoids will be activated with less current (the one available), and therefore in the worst case they could simply make less noise is that correct?

[wiesshund]

fwiw
You could put a small 12v solenoid in the thing, say something like a car door lock activator, hook it to a bell crank (which will make it have more force, trading force for distance of movement) affix a 20 ounce hammer head to the other  short half of the bell crank, and have your cabinet feel like it is being beat open with a sledge hammer.

 

Not saying go with that idea specifically, just giving an example.

And yes, i would say that you need to factor in what is the combined load of the max possible items being active at the same time.
If the load is too high, yes they will make less noise, but they will also put a strain on the power supply if it happens constantly and eventually ruin it.
May even hurt the coils, but i am not positive on that.

 

As the units do not have to do any physical work anymore, i would play with then at 12v and see what they do.

[SimoBigs]

Yes, thanks the example it is clear. Even at the beginning I had thought of using contactors or automotive starter solenoid, but once I found a real pinball machine with real working solenoids still inside I wanted to avoid buying other things and take advantage of those.

 

Moreover, I initially thought that the solenoids being designed to operate at 48V/50V it would be necessary to play them with that voltage. Given the powers involved, it is actually better to make them work at 24V or 12V so as to contain consumption as well as being safer

[kds70]

tested with real bumpers too (old 28v gottlieb bumpers)

 

 

but i think it´s too heavy in a vpin cab (living room); by the way tilt and nudging is the other problem.

[wiesshund]

tested with real bumpers too (old 28v gottlieb bumpers)

 

 

but i think it´s too heavy in a vpin cab (living room); by the way tilt and nudging is the other problem.

 

Ok, i have a novel idea

Skip the idea of using those in a VPX cabinet

 

Build a real playfield and mount those and other goodies to it.
use VPX as the brains, VPX can get external input as to what switch has just been hit etc right?

 

[SimoBigs]

I tried to operate the coils with 24V, unfortunately I can only operate the smaller 11ohm ones, all the others do not move.
I can't try them at 48v but I think it takes more power to move them. I also detached the assembly, leaving only the pin but it doesn't move.

[wiesshund]

I tried to operate the coils with 24V, unfortunately I can only operate the smaller 11ohm ones, all the others do not move.
I can't try them at 48v but I think it takes more power to move them. I also detached the assembly, leaving only the pin but it doesn't move.

 

Odd, i would think that you would get some action out of them.
When you power them with 24v, can you even feel any resistance if you try to pull the pin with your fingers?

 

I know they are designed for 48v, but seems like there should be some action when you have everything detached and the pin floating free? but maybe the windings are just to high?

[kds70]

 

tested with real bumpers too (old 28v gottlieb bumpers)

 

 

but i think it´s too heavy in a vpin cab (living room); by the way tilt and nudging is the other problem.

 

... VPX can get external input as to what switch has just been hit etc right?

 

 

Sure ... via DOF as in my video. Or do i missunderstand something now?

[wiesshund]

Sure ... via DOF as in my video. Or do i missunderstand something now?

 

 

 

Possibly.

I do not want to know if pinmame can trigger a solenoid because the ROM said it was triggered, because the table script said pulse sw32

 

I want to know if....

Can i take a real physical switch, and close it, and have that read, and tell pinmame sw32 was closed.
Or in the case of something romless, can i tell the VPX script, Hey SW32 just closed?

In other words, use it as the controller for a real physical pinball table.

I suppose for romless tables, maybe it would be as simple as defining a bunch of keys
and setting up a bunch of keydowns?
And then wiring up a keyboard matrix?

I guess, a ROM table would be mostly the same?
If blah key down, pulse sw32

 

Could use VPX to run a physical replica of a machine maybe.

I do know they make after market controllers for pinball machines, but only specific ones.

[SimoBigs]

Odd, i would think that you would get some action out of them.

When you power them with 24v, can you even feel any resistance if you try to pull the pin with your fingers?

 

I know they are designed for 48v, but seems like there should be some action when you have everything detached and the pin floating free? but maybe the windings are just to high?

Yes, I think that the windings are to high, I've tried putting coils that work on other assemblies and they go, it's just a matter of the coil.

Coils that don't work struggle to attract the pin, if you help then they hold it.
Now I try to buy other coils with low windings.

[Armyaviation]

I am getting rid of my solenoids, I am going to full SSF now. I never used the solenoids and started to find them annoying however I may leave three for the bumpers. I have a knocker, gear motor, shaker, under cab, a beacon, fan and will be adding addressable LEDs. I had a Corsair 500 w computer power supply running all dof, is that overkill without the solenoids?

[wiesshund]

I am getting rid of my solenoids, I am going to full SSF now. I never used the solenoids and started to find them annoying however I may leave three for the bumpers. I have a knocker, gear motor, shaker, under cab, a beacon, fan and will be adding addressable LEDs. I had a Corsair 500 w computer power supply running all dof, is that overkill without the solenoids?

 

Nah, 500 watt PSU is about standard
I would not go lower, you have to leave some head room for high CPU or GPU demand.

 

Or do you mean a PSU that was only for DOF?
If so, i would still leave it be since it sounds like you are actually still using DOF toys, and still using some solenoids

[mrjcrane]

REGARDING COIL TESTING and SUBSTITUTIONS: ......

So likewise I have been thinking about coil substitutions into the physical pop bumpers, since I think it would be ok to take the voltages down on the pop bumper mechanism. I've been able to get the DataEast 090-5036-01 (24-940) to consistently trigger with just 12 volts in my pincab. It is functioning as my current knocker coil (think it rated @ 50V max). Which makes me think I can probably make it trigger if I substitute it into my physical pop bumper mechanism. The next jump up from there for lower voltage coil testing was with the 090-5001-00 (23-800) which I was able to get to trigger at between 20 & 24v minimum (Max @ 50v). My entire cabinet solution is based on using the lowest power consumption and lowest voltages I can get away with, so in my case mostly 12v toys.

 

My entire PinCab is built to use no more that 12v for any of the connected toys or coils, because I am taking power from the 4 pin Molex Power lead coming off the PC Power supply and not using a secondary power supply. (Wire color coding Yellow is 12v, Red is 5V, Black, Green or White are Ground). Pink is 5v reduced to about 3.5 for my shaker motor).

 

Edited by mrjcrane, 04 February 2021 - 07:42 AM.

[Armyaviation]

......

Edited by Armyaviation, 04 February 2021 - 08:03 PM.