258 replies to this topic

[hauntfreaks]

as per the rules here I and most respect that request... on our own most dont agree... this goes back to the house analogy

 

but just to point it out, I personally contacted the author of this thread  (within minutes of the post) and explained the rules that his content was not accordance of these rules.... and he was more than compliant to remove the content... 

please dont take my comments as an argument... (the internet can do that)

 

I'm just stating my thoughts on the subject and respecting yours in your house....

Edited by hauntfreaks, 02 September 2016 - 07:52 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

It's all good.

 

I am upset that WNBJM was recreated after Greg, a personal friend of mine, asked that it not be done. I'm also upset that the admins of these sites are fully aware and just host it anyway. Am I the only one that has any respect for the industry that has brought this community together?!

 

It just seems to me that to work around the agreements and stipulations that have been asked of our community, some just open a new site! Why not, right? Then, there are no rules!

 

Greg is offended, by the way, and so am I. People come here, take resources and the knowhow they've acquired here, and divide the community further and further by creating new sites to host unauthorized content. Frankly, it's bullshit. I've worked too f'n hard for this community to be shit on like that, imo. It makes me sick.

 

That's one of the main reasons I haven't been around. It seems shitting on me is okay, but Gawd forbid I speak my f'n mind, right?

 

/rant

[freneticamnesic]

"Unauthorized" is purely subjective, and is a term you've adopted to paint yourself as the good guy, and everyone else stealing traffic from you as the bad guy. You like to think of yourself as the funnel at the middle of an hourglass, with the virtual pinball community on one side and the real pinball manufacturers on the other side. Somehow every grain of sand must pass through you. That's a mighty fine way to think of yourself! But it's false and you're lying to everyone. Don't throw around the unauthorized term anymore unless you're including yourself. Besides, the only people actually fooled by that nonsense are people who don't actually care!

 

I think it's more like a beach, the sand occasionally gets kicked around, some things are washed up, and occasionally a dog relieves himself on your castle. Also crabs are involved somehow, but you'd have to ask Shadow about that.

 

hauntfreaks, I don't actually think posting table resources for in-production tables is not allowed here... there's been resources for SAM tables here for ages. It's a silly line to draw, where one resource is allowed because it's low resolution but another is not permitted simply because it's high enough resolution to use on a table recreate, don't you think? I know high res cabinet scans are not allowed because Noah sells them on VirtuaPin, but everything else seems to be fair game.

 

That doesn't mean you shouldn't respect the rules here, obviously a Ghostbusters table using those pictures isn't allowed. But as far as I know, the pictures are OK? (not stirring anything up if they're not, I've just seen many SAM resources here and on Noah's photobucket for a long time)

[hauntfreaks]

nah.... speaking your mind is of course your prerogative.... thats what forums are place to speak our minds.... 

 

thinking anyone would open a new site just to shit on you is a bit silly tho... maybe these places spring up just because some sites discouraged certain content

no one person or even a group of people can make rules outside their own domain , no matter how right they think they are....

 

this would be like a foot fetish site banning pics of boobs because they're friends sister has breast cancer

 

the content provided on other sites are not "reproductions of playfields or plastic" for real pinball....  these simply simulation, and at most a representation of real machines... no different then me taking a photo of the mona lisa fixin it up in photoshop and sharing this image with my friends... i'm trying to say its the real mona lisa.... its just my representation of it... 

and if Leonardo da Vinci said "hey dont share that with your friends" this would be a choice, do you not or do you agree with your friend its not the real thing and it hurts no one....

but lets say Leonardo's friends with the guys from "we love Leonardo da Vinci. com" and that friend says... "hey dont share Leonardo's stuff here".... then you would have no choice but to not share your photo of the Mona Lisa.... 

 

one last analogy... if you were in CA and you want to visit the Magic Castle and you had on a nice pair of slacks some shinny shoes well fitting button up shirt and bowtie

you would be told at the door you were not dress appropriately... you would think well god damn I have all these nice close on , why not??

it would be because you dont have a jacket on because these are the Magic Castles rules.... no matter how silly it is its the rules.... you might say, but i got into the Magic Hut down the street with these clothes
, but not in to the Magic Castle, because the rules are no jacket... no entry.... rule are not the same everywhere but when its the rules, its the rules...

 

this is not people shitting on other people, this is people with differences of opinion on a subject... and respecting the different homes they visit...

Edited by hauntfreaks, 02 September 2016 - 08:51 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

"Unauthorized" is purely subjective, and is a term you've adopted to paint yourself as the good guy, and everyone else stealing traffic from you as the bad guy. You like to think of yourself as the funnel at the middle of an hourglass, with the virtual pinball community on one side and the real pinball manufacturers on the other side. Somehow every grain of sand must pass through you. That's a mighty fine way to think of yourself! But it's false and you're lying to everyone. Don't throw around the unauthorized term anymore unless you're including yourself. Besides, the only people actually fooled by that nonsense are people who don't actually care!

 

I think it's more like a beach, the sand occasionally gets kicked around, some things are washed up, and occasionally a dog relieves himself on your castle. Also crabs are involved somehow, but you'd have to ask Shadow about that.

 

hauntfreaks, I don't actually think posting table resources for in-production tables is not allowed here... there's been resources for SAM tables here for ages. It's a silly line to draw, where one resource is allowed because it's low resolution but another is not permitted simply because it's high enough resolution to use on a table recreate, don't you think? I know high res cabinet scans are not allowed because Noah sells them on VirtuaPin, but everything else seems to be fair game.

 

That doesn't mean you shouldn't respect the rules here, obviously a Ghostbusters table using those pictures isn't allowed. But as far as I know, the pictures are OK? (not stirring anything up if they're not, I've just seen many SAM resources here and on Noah's photobucket for a long time)

 

Unauthorized is far from subjective. I know a helluva lot more about this and what gets discussed 'behind the scenes' than anyone here, and I can tell you, it's going to bite this community in the ass. I, personally, went to Gary Stern and discussed what we can and can't do. I spoke with Roger Sharpe, who took some questions to WMS legal for me. I wanted to make sure we could thrive without an issue. I know the limitations.

 

As for good guy/bad guy stuff, this isn't about traffic, it's about what's right. Do you all have some kind of resource you go to for comments like "Somehow every grain of sand must pass through you."? It seems the ridiculously untrue picture 'painted' of me has rubbed off on you. Who I am is the guy who took the reigns of this once-dying community and invested a ridiculous number of hours/weeks/months/years trying to breathe new life into it.

 

Also note, the scans are not permitted by IP holders, not me, nor does anything I sell on VirtuaPin.net affect how I do things here. Another 'play' out of the Noah haters' Handbook?

 

nah.... speaking your mind is of course your prerogative.... thats what forums are place to speak our minds.... 

 

thinking anyone would open a new site just to shit on you is a bit silly tho... maybe these places spring up just because some sites discouraged certain content

no one person or even a group of people can make rules outside their own domain , no matter how right they think they are....

 

this would be like a foot fetish site banning pics of boobs because they're friends sister has breast cancer

 

the content provided on other sites are not "reproductions of playfields or plastic" for real pinball....  these simply simulation, and at most a representation of real machines... no different then me taking a photo of the mona lisa fixin it up in photoshop and sharing this image with my friends... i'm trying to say its the real mona lisa.... its just my representation of it... 

and if Leonardo da Vinci said "hey dont share that with your friends" this would be a choice, do you not or do you agree with your friend its not the real thing and it hurts no one....

but lets say Leonardo's friends with the guys from "we love Leonardo da Vinci. com" and that friend says... "hey dont share Leonardo's stuff here".... then you would have no choice but to not share your photo of the Mona Lisa.... 

 

one last analogy... if you were in CA and you want to visit the Magic Castle and you had on a nice pair of slacks some shinny shoes well fitting button up shirt and bowtie

you would be told at the door you were not dress appropriately... you would think well god damn I have all these nice close on , why not??

it would be because you dont have a jacket on because these are the Magic Castles rules.... no matter how silly it is its the rules.... you might say, but i got into the Magic Hut down the street with these clothes
, but not in to the Magic Castle, because the rules are no jacket... no entry.... rule are not the same everywhere but when its the rules, its the rules...

 

this is not people shitting on other people, this is people with differences of opinion on a subject... and respecting the different homes they visit...

 

When I see our policy mocked here, and completely disregarded on other sites, you bet your ass I'm offended, AKA feeling shit on! Everyone seems to forget the guys who made this hobby possible. You think the VPinMAME team wants to see SAM games out there a week after they're in production?! No. They feel shit on, as well.

 

When someone MODs a table without permission, people go apeshit about it and cry bloody murder, but MOD VPM for use outside the intent of the developers and no one cares, even when you know it's wrong? As long as you get your games, right? Bullshit.

 

Let's not forget that damn near every pinball ROM you've ever downloaded was dumped and shared by destruk! He's not around anymore for very much the same reason.

 

I'm not the only one who sees it this way, either. I'm just the only one who speaks up about it.

 

I see some dark weather ahead, and everyone will be too caught up with their own egos to see it coming.

 

Have a nice day.

[hauntfreaks]

this is the sentence that people dont understand.....

 

When I see our policy mocked here, and completely disregarded on other sites

 

there is no our policy beyond this site and others with the same policy.... 

 

as for VPM thats not my forte so I wouldnt know.... 

 

my work is open to anyone that wants to make it better.... but i know what ya mean thats not the feeling for every builder.... 
all i care about is someone isnt making money on something i did for free to be used for free and distributed for free

[Noah Fentz]

this is the sentence that people dont understand.....

 

When I see our policy mocked here, and completely disregarded on other sites

 

there is no our policy beyond this site and others with the same policy.... 

 

as for VPM thats not my forte so I wouldnt know.... 

 

my work is open to anyone that wants to make it better.... but i know what ya mean thats not the feeling for every builder.... 
all i care about is someone isnt making money on something i did for free to be used for free and distributed for free

 

It's completely disregarded by former/current members like it's all bullshit. It's been documented time and time again that we have an agreement with Stern, since before my time, even. So, just open another site ...

[sliderpoint]

Unfortunately when you say   "we have an agreement with Stern",  it means now means YOU are enforcing an old agreement with Stern.  You can enforce whatever rules you want on your site.  But as much as you would not like to think it, you don't own nor are you responsible for the others preferred usage of Visual Pinball or PinMame.  They have both been released as Open Source.  You recently said you were looking into all the legal business of open source and selling and whatnot, and I would hope that by now you would have a better understanding of what people can do with open source software.

 

Here is a real world example.  Linus Torvalds doesn't get to say shit about what Debian does with their distribution of Linux.  He released his software and they can do what they like with it.

 

-Mike

[xenonph]

Maybe this is why people are selling Authors tables. If there are no rules, then I guess we could all start selling these tables.

 

What happens when an author makes a table here, and the next day, somebody uses their resources, and makes there own version of your new table, without asking you. What if the day after Pokemon Pinball is made by JP Salas, someone else makes there own version of it, and makes it available for all.

What if someone did that to CARtoons Magazine "barn find" Original VPX table the day after you made it? What about the Authors that do not allow Mods? Should we then just take it upon ourselves to not ask permission to Mod? After all, we are using PinMAME and the other programs as we see fit.

 

What if the Pinball companies started taking your original tables and making there own Pinball Machines out of them? Without Permission?

What if they made a deal with you, that they wouldn't recreate any of your new Original Tables and make Pinball Machines out of them?

 

Rules are Rules. When not followed, you have Anarchy.

 

Keep on Pinballin'

 

   

[sliderpoint]

This is exactly true.  

 

If someone took something I did and sold it, well I can be mad. But I can't legally do anything about it.  I have freely uploaded this work to the internet for people to use, even if they choose to use it in a way I don't agree with.  

 

Lets be clear that these are RULES of this website, they are not laws.

 

If the original owners of whatever IP's would like to try to enforce an infringement on copywrite against those are reproducing owned property for the sake of making a profit, then it is up to those IP owners to do so, not anyone else.

 

-Mike

[Noah Fentz]

Lol.

I'm done.

When you guys can discern between laws and respect, let me know. I've personally had it. I'll just sit back and watch.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[Drybonz]

I would like to play the new Stern tables and support them (or rather support the place that supported Stern by buying their tables) in some small way by dropping some quarters... however, to play the new Stern tables I have to drive almost two hours... even then I've never seen some of the new ones.  Never seen a Ghostbusters... the new Batman... forget it.  No one will have it around here.  There's one place near me that has an Iron Man table.  Basically, they are a rare item.

 

Pinball and arcade is already dead, as much as I hate to say it.  Since Playstation 2 and Xbox, I think, those were the final days... people decided they would rather sit on the couch and play Madden football.  I miss those days of hanging out at the arcade with friends.  Anyway, if I want to play those newer Stern tables, I have the option to play many of them in VP, so that's what I do.  I respect that Noah wants to keep his word on a promise to not host those tables... I think that's great... however, I'm still going to get them from any of the other sites.  

 

The new Stern digital app/game had the potential to be another alternative, but since they won't put cab support/good camera views/analog nudging, etc... it won't drum up a whole lot of serious interest for any of us who are used to those features or have invested in a full cab, etc...

 

Realistically, what I see is that pinball/arcade is already dead... any of the handful of tables that are being produced are living relics... I would love to support them just out of a sense of nostalgia, but they are not accessible to a lot of us.  VP is very accessible, and if they gave me another option I would love to consider it.

 

*edit*  Also, I'm guessing the guy in the OP with the Ghostbusters pictures he took with his phone had no idea what was about happen here when he made that post... lol.

Edited by Drybonz, 03 September 2016 - 07:03 AM.

[DJRobX]

 

but MOD VPM for use outside the intent of the developers and no one cares, even when you know it's wrong? As long as you get your games, right? Bullshit.

 

 

VPM is based on the GPL license which states that I can in fact fork it and do whatever I want with it, as long as I make my derivative sources available, without any prior approval.     If the developers wanted more control, they shouldn't have built it upon GPL code. 

 

For many years we suffered with annoying dialogs and had to fuss with expiration dates because of certain folks thought they could interpret the GPL license their own way for what they felt was "the greater good".  I'm glad those dark days are over.   Encrypting derivative sources was against the spirit of the GPL license, and THAT was disrespecting everyone who's ever contributed the underlying sources and libraries used to build MAME in the first place. 

 

Emulation has stood the test of time.   Not even the mighty Nintendo has been able to stamp it out.   I'm sure Nintendo finds Dolphin that runs currently sold games to be extremely disrespectful, but yet it remains.  Pinball simulation will likely continue too, with or without Gary Stern's approval.   IMHO, TPA is going to be the source of "darker storms ahead", much mores so than some offshoots of people who disagree with your policy.   TPA is showing IP holders that old pinball IP has real monetary value, and our liberal "borrowing" of said resources devalues it. 

 

That said I respect your efforts to remain in good standing with the entities that provided us the games that we're so eager to preserve and enjoy.  

[jpsalas]

I completely agree with Noah. I know I have bent a little the rules sometimes, my Spider-man and Pirate table were inspired/based on Sterns tables, but I didn't use their software nor graphics, and the rules were my fantasy.

 

The layout of my Pokémon table is more or less the layout of Sterns Kiss table. My point is that even if I have borrowed some ideas from Stern tables, still I respect Gary's wishes and I do not make and distribute VP versions of his SAM tables using his software, just because he doesn't wish that. What's wrong in accepting that? He is the right owner of the tables, and if he has said the doesn't want a VP recreation, then this is not an" in house" rule, that's his wishes and it should affect all the sites. You can't go and rob a bank, and then say: "they didn't told me specific to me that they didn't want me to rob the bank, and I don't accept what they have told the police, because I have not heard it and I have never seen it written". Then you are for a big surprise

 

Even if my personal opinion is that a VP table will never do any harm to Stern sales, on the contrary it may be free advertisement, I still respect Stern wishes, on this site or on any other site. His wishes are his wishes, here, and on the moon.

 

JP

[alistaircg]

Guys

 

I never intended to open this can of worms

 

I get both sides. We cant bite the hand that feeds, Stern is still making new tables, and in particularly in this day and age, original tables are much better than simulated ones of course, but at a price and even a location. 

 

I will never be able to get a Ghostbusters here in Africa. I did have the opportunity to play it while on holiday in Chicago, and it was lots of fun, I took videos and pictures for myself, nobody else i know likes pinball, so i thought somebody here might appreciate it to have a look at some parts close up, and if they wanted to make a virtual table one day. 

 

I never meant to undermine Stern sales, or upset people, I still look forward to the day I can play the game again, not only because it was fun , and i will never have access to it again, but it now reminds me of my holiday. Hauntfreaks messaged me immediately explaining a rule i had broken that i never knew about, and i removed the post.

 

Technically me taking pictures of someone else'a artwork and ever trying to profit of that artwork is theft, Stern holds the copyright to it. I can take pictures of parts of it and share it between friends, but we cant ask money for any of it without consulting Stern the copyright holder. If the company is no longer in business, then the liquidators or whoever bought the companies intelectual copyright holds the rights. This has always been a bit part of this scene and why everything is free and open.

 

Its my understanding that allot of these old companies and including stern, choose to look the other way to encourage sites like this preserving and cherishing older work, while keeping there sales target market still open to eventually buying one of there new machines, granted they could not actually make any money from it until pinball arcade came along.

 

If this is the real reason behind not being asked to replicate new games, thats fine, its their work and business, but then get your finger out your arse Stern and get it on a platform I can buy it on already, I have no problems shelling out a few bucks for a pinball arcade stern ghostbusters. Give me a choice here other than taking bad photos with my phone and praying someone here could actually do something with them. ( thats the funny part, they are actually terrible photos i took)

 

So we don't get the new ghostbusters, or game of thrones on here in public access, and someone makes a table and keeps it between himself and a few friends, we can stop that, but we have allot from this site and from each other for years. 

 

None of the new games are so important to have that it cause this much crap between us. So i cant have a ghostbusters, thats ok but at some point can i get a new VPX star wars ? Thats good for now, less drama, and I get to pretend its 1993 again i still have hair

 

Anyway im going one here a bit

 

You guys have done and still do allot, i appreciate it.

 

Sorry about the spilled milk

[N3roflint]

This is about the fourth time since my involvement in this community that this issue has come up about "respect" towards Stern and their tables and it begins and ends the same way each time.Each previous time I have kept quiet because I felt it wasn't my place to say anything either because I don't own the website or I am not a table author and I didnt' want to step on anyones toes but I'm going to speak my piece this time around.

 

The problem I have with the "respect" issue on this website is this: Where is the "respect" for all of the other intellectual property that is posted all over the website? If permission or a gentlemens agreement allows you to recreate the old Williams/Bally tables that contains intellectual property then I suppose that's one thing since the property is part of the table but what about all the original tables in both VP and Futurepinball that litter this place which contain intellectual property that no permission has been granted for? What happened to the respect in those cases? Those tables contain images and sounds that are copyrighted to other companies and people not limited to movies, television shows, music, artwork, etc., etc. but yet here they are free and easy for anybody to download at any time. A lot of these are properties that are still sold by the companies involved who make a profit off them. That's not very respectful is it?

 

Same with the Gottlieb tables that are everywhere. The people that own the rights to Gottlieb have said that they do not want anything recreated without their permission yet this site contains roms, tables, etc. No respect there either is there?

 

Having said all of this I download and play some of those tables to death and I sleep well just like many others here. The difference is that I'm not the one who makes the rules here. I just find it completely hypocritical that it's one way for one company and not the others. It makes no sense to me.

 

Sorry Paul but it's like you're the town cop who's watching gangs loot and pillage all the properties in town but you stand in front of this one house and say "This is owned by Stern don't you dare touch anything in here because it's all about respect". So respect only works for people who you consider to be your friends?  It should be equal across all playing fields shouldn't it?

 

That's one of the reasons I made the choice to start downloading Stern tables at other websites because I can't buy into the argument anymore. The other reason is I want to play Stern tables period and I want to play them standing up at a cabinet like they are meant to be played....not on some bloody smartphone or tablet.. And I also want to play the tables created by the same great authors who create tables here not the corporate drip cases who make the lipstick on a pig tables at TPA. These guys are the best and I want to play tables made by the best.

 

Like Drybonz I live in an area which does not provide much opportunity to play any modern tables which isn't just limited to Stern but also includes Jersey Jack, Heighway and Spooky. When I do find any of them I play them no matter the condition they are in. I found AC/DC at a local mall/movie theatre that I played for three hours. I did this in a Chuck E. Cheese environment which only contained whack a moles, skee balls, dance/dance/ machines and little kids. And once I started rocking and rolling on that table the kids weren't interested in the redemption machines anymore they started to watch me play and started asking lots of questions which I answered for them. By the time I left they were playing the table. How's that for free advertising?

 

Instead of promising people that these tables won't be made Paul why aren't you standing up for the authors here that help you to make money? Tell your good friends Gary Stern and others that they make the best tables around and they will help promote real pinball play on their systems? Why aren't you telling them that they help recreate history and what a good job they do at it? They're promoting Stern and helping you sell your cabinets and they're doing it for free why are you chastising them for it?

Edited by N3roflint, 03 September 2016 - 11:01 AM.

[arngrim]

spike won't be emulated for quite a while, sam games i have never seen any in real.
the last 2 real pins i saw, tom in 2011, holiday in germany, game was so old and not maintained, not enjoyable.
and this week in spain, no fear real pin, one of my fav, same state but even worse, no sound and the flippers were horizontal in standing position, unplayable!
so twice i came back home and had a great time playing them back on my cab:)

[alistaircg]

Good point, the Virtual pinball market and actual game collector markets are diffrent, the collectors are still going to buy the real machines. The guys i know who collect actual machines look down on virtual pinball as as inferior, and will never play or buy the "fake thing" . I do think the market goes the other way, where people who play virtual tables will most likely buy a real machine if given the right deal and chance

[chepas]

Alistair, where you uploaded to is terrible. Made me wait 3 minutes to enter a captcha code that's in an infinite loop.

The layout of my Pokémon table is more or less the layout of Sterns Kiss table

Taking inspiration from a layout has been done over & over all throughout the pinball timeline, that is the least of your worries. You have recreated pretty much every game so you should start there if you need to worry.

[dark]

I want to model the slimer toy, looks really cool and would be fun to model.  I don't see anything wrong with gathering resources for a future build,  I think we should at least respect tables that are still in production.  How long exactly we should wait when a table is out of production?  I don't know the answer to that.

 

Some people have mentioned that real life pinball is a dying game, while others may say it's on it's way back.  It's my opinion that it's a niche market for sure (and will stay one), a perfect example is myself, I would love to own some new pinball machines but there's no way I'm paying $8000 or more to own them, most people would buy a used car first or something more practical for the same money.  I know I know, inflation and all that crap, but still it's really hard to find decent priced pinballs at least in my city when every auction is snatched up by collectors who have more money to burn than I do.