55 replies to this topic

[Ben Logan]

Right, Drybonz. It does make sense, and it's one way to approach access to low voltage flicks. But, it's inconsistent with what I think I'm seeing with real pinball flipper behavior. On my real machines, once the flipper assembly "decides" you want to return the flipper to its resting position, it positively snaps back down into place. On VP, in order to access low voltage, we have to lower return strength to kinda simulate in the absence of the subroutine I tried to describe. With real pinball, you don't need weak return strength to flick or tap flippers. You get both snappy return and access to low voltage flips.

I'm sure there are multiple approaches / solutions to this challenge. Someone might certainly come up with a more elegant one than mine!

[Drybonz]

I was just playing ICPJuggla and crew's Atlantis (1989) vp9 table.  IMO, it's a good example (and I'm sure there are many others) of a table with nice flipper action.  I was easily doing sling passes that seemed realistic.

 

*edit*  On the tables that have that really hard "snap" down flipper action, the slingshot pass won't work because the ball just launches up to the other side too high.  It needs that same soft touch as the tip pass.

Edited by Drybonz, 10 July 2016 - 05:08 AM.

[Ben Logan]

I hope it's not overkill to post one more minute-long video on this subject. I managed to demonstrate a (sloppy) cradle separation during multiball, and a number of flick passes. I'm not the greatest pinball player in town, VP or real, but these skills are ones I certainly at least try to use each and every game. A big part of the fun!
 
Hope VP flipper settings fields found within the editor evolve in such a way as to include options which might make these kinds of low voltage based moves possible without the side effects (exaggerated "give" of flippers when hit by a fast traveling ball, and super slow return rate) Dare I say that Farsight's much maligned "The Pinball Arcade" actually does a pretty good job with flipper physics (aside from the fake drop-catches). It's TPA's ball physics that make me thankful for VP's amazing physics engine daily.
 
Here's the short video, this time featuring Takut's fantastic Swords of Fury. Lionman!!
 

Edited by Ben Logan, 11 July 2016 - 06:15 PM.

[Drybonz]

Nice, Ben... did you do any changes to the table, or is it the default flipper physics we are all using?

 

*edit*  With the import and export physics (including flipper) options, we should be able to easily share good settings on these forums.

Edited by Drybonz, 11 July 2016 - 04:16 AM.

[Ben Logan]

Totally appreciate your interest, Drybonz! I used the same "drastically altered" flipper physics settings employed on the Cosmic Gunfight video on the Swords of Fury video. And, agreed -- it's totally easy to export and share physics settings. Nice idea.

Edited by Ben Logan, 11 July 2016 - 04:51 AM.

[Drybonz]

Here are Ben's physics settings from the first post.  All you have to do is go to "physics" in the editor options and import.  

Ben feel free to edit this and re-post if I messed it up.

 

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

 

*edit*  I really hate that there isn't an attachment button on these forums, like there is on every other forum I have ever been to.  Sorry I had to use Google drive... just click the download button at the top to save it as a .vpp file.

 

*edit*  I'm testing these settings right now.  Usually, when I am doing a quick test, I use my keyboard so I don't have to move my arcade controller.  With the keyboard, I have not been able to do any passes or anything fancy. However, with these settings, I immediately noticed a difference even with the keyboard.

 

My initial impression is that this is a huge step in the right direction.  I'm noticing that the flipper feels a bit too "floppy" when the ball hits and sometimes a bit weak.  I think this can be tweaked out pretty easily.  Honestly, I have never really looked at the physics settings much, so I'm glad that this discussion is happening.

 

One of my concerns is that, as we tweak these we don't eventually lose realism... although I think realism is what this is heading towards now.

 

*edit*  What would eventually be a good idea is if we had .vpp files set up for "80's Bally.vpp"  "90's Midway.vpp", "Gottlieb EM.vpp", etc... so that you can easily import a realistic physics set for the respective era/maker.  That would take a bit of initial setup to get the files, but then everyone could use them.

Edited by Drybonz, 11 July 2016 - 05:35 AM.

[Ben Logan]

Thanks, Drybonz. FYI, VP Forums does host images. At the top of the page click the VPF Image Host tab. You can upload any image to the forum through that window and copy a url from there to embed your image right within your post. That said, I still can't figure out how to so this for YouTube videos!

I agree: While these settings are useful for tap and flick passes and cradle separarations, they introduce totally unrealistic side-effects. That's really my biggest outcome hope for this thread: To see if we can generate some interest in possibly incorporating a new editor feature that will allow access to low-voltage flipper tricks into VP's engine, in a more realistic way... minus the "floppy" feel. Perfect description on your part, Drybonz.

We probably need Toxie's and or Fuzzel's help, but I want to gauge interest before making an official request from these hard working engine coders! I'd totally understand if they feel more pressing needs require their attention for the next few betas, but I'd be thrilled to see this feature request considered.

Hope I'm not being s PITA!

[nFozzy]

EOS Floppiness is exaggerated no matter what the settings. I ran into an EOS problem tuning BK2K's ramp to the right flipper. From that specific angle, the flipper's torque absorbs about half of the momentum of the ball.
 

Still better than PM5. I remember getting stuck tuning a funhouse-style kickout because the ball would just... stop dead. On the flipper.

[Drybonz]

To see if we can generate some interest in possibly incorporating a new editor feature that will allow access to low-voltage flipper tricks into VP's engine, in a more realistic way... minus the "floppy" feel. Perfect description on your part, Drybonz.

 

I think we might be able to fix some of it now by just trying to hit a middle ground on those settings.  We just need to test out the changes that are making the more extreme unrealism, but try to keep most of the flipper control.

 

Also, on the image hosting... can you add attachements, like the .vpp file I posted, above?

Edited by Drybonz, 11 July 2016 - 06:59 AM.

[Ben Logan]

NFozzy,

The relationship between BK2K's ramp and the right flipper is an important one. Nice example. So if Toxie (I'm assuming) were to code the floppiness out of the flipper physics engine and still retain our ability to "tune in" low voltage access for flick passes, how would that look conceptually? I took a stab at it with my little flowchart a few posts back, but I'm not sure if it hits the mark.

I'm sure I'm falling into the classic trap of "because I can imagine it, you coders can make it happen!"

PS - Thanks again for Congo. My nine year old and I love it. Whenever I fire your table up, he always come over and says "Add me!"


Drybonz,

I'm right with you. I can totally live with the middle ground. Happily, even! But that floppiness and the snail's pace at which the flipper returns to rest under my bonkers settings - I'd love to see it go! Far as I'm concerned we're just talking about making a great engine better.

Edited by Ben Logan, 11 July 2016 - 07:02 AM.

[Drybonz]

The one setting that stood out to me is the "coil ramp up" going down to zero... that was a pretty big change on the SoF table.  Did you try setting it back up a little?

[Ben Logan]

The reason I like the coil ramp up set as zero is to get the snappiest upward flip from the resting position. Heck, a bunch of us even use the "Force Fullscreen Mode" video option to get even snappier flipper response time -- probably just a millisecond or three, but it makes a difference in the feel for sure. Setting the coil ramp up to anything higher than zero adds more latency between pressing the flipper button, and seeing the flipper move up. Since we only want "useful latency" when the flipper is in the cradle position, it makes more sense to me to set the return strength (which is basically "return strength time") low.

[Drybonz]

I was messing around with these settings on Scared Stiff and found that just turning the "return strength" down from .5 to .3 and leaving everything else alone made a big improvement without making it too unrealistic.  Still needs a bit of tweaking, but I like just toning down that one setting a bit.

Edited by Drybonz, 11 July 2016 - 08:04 PM.

[ClarkKent]

I would not mess around too much with the settings outside the recommended range - you can make the flipper tricks easier but the rest of the table behavior is not optimal anymore. Mukuste thought well about the physics as he has a master degree in physics, his recommendations are the most realistic ones. I would use the words of Q in STTNG: Learn to play pinball!

[Drybonz]

I think they could use a little tweaking, myself.

[sliderpoint]

They definitely need tweaking.  I remember there being a discussion thread where Mukuste was asking about how the flippers work, the settings that were just his preliminary attempts; it never made it further than that.  

 

With the suggested items so far, I think that the flippers are still too slow and it makes the flicks and taps way too easy to do, but it's a step in the right direction.

 

Where is @jimmyfingers he always has input on these kinds of topics?

 

-Mike

[Ben Logan]

Yes -- we need jimmyfingers!

ClarkKent -- I admit my settings are bonkers. Not an optimal end product by any stretch. Just exaggerated settings to use to try to illustrate moves that are possible with low voltage flips. As far as Q's advice goes, low voltage flips are a huge part of the game! Watch any of those pros on PAPA videos. They use flick, tap, loop passes all the time. Low voltage cradle separations occur for those cats every multiball.

Right with you regarding Mukuste's genius though. I'm thankful fo his work daily. And yours, for that matter!

[fuzzel]

A little bit late to the party here but the EOS setting came in because Mukuste used a hard coded value in the engine that prevented to tweak such behavior totally. Jimmy came up with the request to add this so he is the right person to ask questions regarding flipper tweaking but afaik he is busy with real life stuff at the moment.

[Ben Logan]

Thanks for the backstory, fuzzel. My solution introduces way too many undesirable side-effects to be genuinely useful, but I believe nFozzy really has come up with a game-changer bit of flipper code. It's just brilliant, I my opinion. VP is even starting to improve my real pinball game these days, as the sim is getting that close to the real thing. And I need all the help / practice I can get!

[fuzzel]

Lol good to know we are working/cleaning up the old physics code in VP because it's really a nightmare to maintain this beast anymore. I hope we won't break any existing VPX physics but we are always open to improve the default values of physics values of the elements. Though the work on that slows a bit down in the summer break