96 replies to this topic

[unclewilly]

That's the appropriate analogy rawd. Yes itd be great to have the cabinet fully loaded and ready to go, but there are EULA for a reason. And mame/pinmame are strictly not for commercial distribution as then all the illegal rom use would bring an end to the emulators in the first place.
But since they removed the software and the cabinets are still available all is well.

I'd much rather see the money in the form of donations got to vpf and hpf who's existence keeps the hobby alive, then to a cabinet builder who is already recouping money for
His work done and makin an extra buck on the hard work of the software and table developers

[faralos]

the ultimate pipe dream would be to have a percentage of all profits roll back into the vp and fp community like say only a 2% rate across the board on each cab sold the money going into the public forums (here, PN, FP, IrPinballs, etc) this way the sysops (and eventually the table builders too if the sysops decide that way) could see not only vp getting daylight where it may not normally have seen any before but also to actually make some money from all the hard work they have done and are still doing...just a pipe dream of course...

[grimwasere]

well to alll the guys who didnt see the ad i kept the old one and it annoyed me because they advertised it with the virtual pinball logo and the hyperpin logo and it said running hyperpin frontend used to select games and visual pinball system, i have the advert but i dont know if i can post the link so i wont, if it was just the cab and pc set up i dont think there was a problem with it.

and if anyone wants cabs built in uk who cant i could probably help if they are in no real rush and charge a bit extra to go to the vp forum, if as faralos says we all do it money gets pumped back into the forum and it helps the people who have no choice than to go to these companies for their cabs.

[Noah Fentz]

well to alll the guys who didnt see the ad i kept the old one and it annoyed me because they advertised it with the virtual pinball logo and the hyperpin logo and it said running hyperpin frontend used to select games and visual pinball system, i have the advert but i dont know if i can post the link so i wont, if it was just the cab and pc set up i dont think there was a problem with it.

and if anyone wants cabs built in uk who cant i could probably help if they are in no real rush and charge a bit extra to go to the vp forum, if as faralos says we all do it money gets pumped back into the forum and it helps the people who have no choice than to go to these companies for their cabs.

We're shipping a unit to the UK next week, so you could always hit me up for a VirtuaPin.

Don't be surprised if we have a European distributor soon.

[Practicedummy]

I won't be discouraged by some of these scum (provided that this manufacturer IS using tables as part of the package). What we can do is to spread the gospel and good news of Visual Pinball is a free gift to the masses!

[Flying Dutchman]

That's the appropriate analogy rawd. Yes itd be great to have the cabinet fully loaded and ready to go, but there are EULA for a reason. And mame/pinmame are strictly not for commercial distribution as then all the illegal rom use would bring an end to the emulators in the first place.
But since they removed the software and the cabinets are still available all is well.

I'd much rather see the money in the form of donations got to vpf and hpf who's existence keeps the hobby alive, then to a cabinet builder who is already recouping money for
His work done and makin an extra buck on the hard work of the software and table developers

Amen .. + the fact that the community tested & developed a 'close to real' Cabinet which is exploited by others ..
Sorry .. it's not done ..

Cheers,
FD.

Edited by Flying Dutchman, 05 July 2011 - 06:11 PM.

[mameman23]

as you have already said, its for sure not just the software that is being taken advantage of in these instances. It is also all the hardwork that we have all done coming up with idea's, plans and how to's that others are making money off our hard work. I stagger to think how many things we have all come up with and documented (cab drawings, links to suppliers) that others who want to profit from it have simply come along and picked up our hardwork without even saying thanks. Its a shame as it will make some decided not to share.

[Dazz]

Ok, I think this issue has been cleared up.

[Noah Fentz]

I hope these 'cab crook' comments aren't directed at me.



One of the main reasons I even thought of developing and selling cabs was the gouging for $7K/unit I saw.

[Practicedummy]

I certainly hope these 'cab crook' comments aren't directed at me.



One of the main reasons I even thought of developing and selling cabs was the gouging for $7K/unit I saw.

We know that you only sell cabs WITHOUT tables included Noah, so I don't think anyone, with half a brain, would aim anything like that at you.

[Dazz]

Arcadewarehouse - the guys this thread is regarding is actually a pretty large distributor in the UK. I'm pretty sure that they didn't mean any harm and was not intending on including software. However, their initial images did not mention this at all. They have edited their images and the images now state that software is not pre-loaded, no tables included, etc.

I have recommended that they actually remove the game images from their artwork and just use a blank LCD like virtuapin.net does. This will help clear up confusion and will not mislead the customers.

[mameman23]

Arcadewarehouse - the guys this thread is regarding is actually a pretty large distributor in the UK. I'm pretty sure that they didn't mean any harm and was not intending on including software. However, their initial images did not mention this at all. They have edited their images and the images now state that software is not pre-loaded, no tables included, etc.

I have recommended that they actually remove the game images from their artwork and just use a blank LCD like virtuapin.net does. This will help clear up confusion and will not mislead the customers.

agreed they are not a bad bunch of lads, I bought a few things from them when I was back there. Like a lot I am sure they saw an opening and went for it, not fully thinking all things through before they did.

[ynneBBenny]

Amen .. + the fact that the community tested & developed a 'close to real' Cabinet which is exploited by others ..

I havnt seen that ? I saw Individuals start to build their own cabs and share ideas and results. If there was a set of building plans out there that were open source and they copied them verbatim, then they might be pushing boundaries a bit.

All these guys are doing is providing a service by making cabinets. Just because there is open source software that can run in these cabinets, people are up in arms about them profiteering from the software. No, they are making a profit by making and selling cabinets. I think one question that should be asked is why are we really upset? Are we upset because someone is making a profit from making cabinets while we are not ?

Personally I dont see an issue with people selling DVDs containging VP tables either. They are not selling the work, they are selling the service that saves people the effort of downloading them all.

No one has given me a strong and well argued reason that has convinced me otherwise. I have seen the occasional emotive rant, but nothing to make me think differently.

That been said, I have never done any of the above myself. But if I felt the need to buy a DVD containing all the games I would pay the cheapest price I could find for thier downloading services and not feel like anyone has lost or won in the excercise.

Edited by WWW, 05 July 2011 - 07:08 PM.

[Rawd]

Are you joking WWW?

There is nothing wrong with selling cabinets.
There is everything wrong with selling illegal roms and copyrighted software, along with the moral implications of selling authors hard work.


I don't understand how you don't understand?

[Bob5453]

Amen .. + the fact that the community tested & developed a 'close to real' Cabinet which is exploited by others ..

I havnt seen that ? I saw Individuals start to build their own cabs and share ideas and results. If there was a set of building plans out there that were open source and they copied them verbatim, then they might be pushing boundaries a bit.

All these guys are doing is providing a service by making cabinets. Just because there is open source software that can run in these cabinets, people are up in arms about them profiteering from the software. No, they are making a profit by making and selling cabinets. I think one question that should be asked is why are we really upset? Are we upset because someone is making a profit from making cabinets while we are not ?

Personally I dont see an issue with people selling DVDs containging VP tables either. They are not selling the work, they are selling the service that saves people the effort of downloading them all.

No one has given me a strong and well argued reason that has convinced me otherwise. I have see emotive rants, but nothing to make me think differently.

That been said, I have never done any of the above myself. But if I felt the need to buy a DVD containing all the games I would pay the cheapest price I could find for thier downloading services and not feel like anyone has lost or won in the excercise.

There is no problem with making cabinets. You just can't sell other peoples software or tables.

It's pretty simple really. I can sell a used pc or harddrive on eBay, but I can't leave the 10,000 mp3's I have on it. I can make a jukebox and sell it, but once again, I can't install 10,000 mp3's on it. This is no different than selling a DVD with tables or mp3 files on them, you can't do it. I know people do it, but that doesn't make it right.

[settingsons]

I certainly hope these 'cab crook' comments aren't directed at me.



One of the main reasons I even thought of developing and selling cabs was the gouging for $7K/unit I saw.

We know that you only sell cabs WITHOUT tables included Noah, so I don't think anyone, with half a brain, would aim anything like that at you.

... and the fact that you started this forum in the first place and your 7000+ posts clearly shows your passion for the hobby - long before you setup any cabinet business. Virtual Pinball will definitely play a part of the preservation of Pinball for the future and there are a lot of people who haven't got the time or skills to build one, so we need people like yourself (that do things above board) to meet the demand.

[Flying Dutchman]

I certainly hope these 'cab crook' comments aren't directed at me.



One of the main reasons I even thought of developing and selling cabs was the gouging for $7K/unit I saw.

We know that you only sell cabs WITHOUT tables included Noah, so I don't think anyone, with half a brain, would aim anything like that at you.

... and the fact that you started this forum in the first place and your 7000+ posts clearly shows your passion for the hobby - long before you setup any cabinet business. Virtual Pinball will definitely play a part of the preservation of Pinball for the future and there are a lot of people who haven't got the time or skills to build one, so we need people like yourself (that do things above board) to meet the demand.

That's a fact! Thanks Noah for giving us a home to share our hobby!

Thing is WWW .. I do not have a problem (as you and everyone know) sharing all we got .. this is, within' the community that gives me back what I'm trying to give as well .. the pleasure to play Pinball!

I'm not sure if 'making a profit' out of the ideas from others is the same as adding value to our community .. unless I'm wrong ..

Cheers,
FD.

ps. encouraging other members I also see as adding a huge value and highly motivating!

[wildman]

Really www what if you made say 5 tables that took you 4 months of work to complete and some jackoff
downloaded them and started selling them for 50 bucks on the internet...You wouldnt be upset...
what if someone stole your bike or whatever out of your yard and was selling it on the corner
I mean it was just laying there right...You would not be upset...
same thing just because you get it for free does not give you the right to sell it period....end of story!!!
ps read the discliamers when you download shit you will learn alot...

[zoltar420]

Does this just apply for these guys since they went large and made it commercial? I keep seeing member virtual pinball machines on ebay fully loaded with games and roms and no one raises fuss about those sales. Just not seeing the difference... sorry if i am mistaken, not trying to argue... it just seems that if you sell it as an individual there is no problem but if under a business name everyone gets mad. I believe selling the roms are wrong and im all about protecting copyrights, but is there something i missed?

Thanks Zoltar

[mameman23]

Does this just apply for these guys since they went large and made it commercial? I keep seeing member virtual pinball machines on ebay fully loaded with games and roms and no one raises fuss about those sales. Just not seeing the difference... sorry if i am mistaken, not trying to argue... it just seems that if you sell it as an individual there is no problem but if under a business name everyone gets mad. I believe selling the roms are wrong and im all about protecting copyrights, but is there something i missed?

Thanks Zoltar

nope selling your own if even to fund the next one with games installed is a no, no. have to state it comes with no games installed.
I used to sell a mame cocktail cabinet per week when I was in the UK and that was standard practice with those also.