22 replies to this topic

[EalaDubhSidhe]

VP flipper settings, for one reason of another, have never been perfect to our satisfaction, mainly down to the enduring issue of how to create center shots that can be hit, with accuracy, from every single flip under every single circumstance. The accepted compromise is generally a combination of high flipper speed, and low power; high speed so that the ball is realistically flipped rather than pushed, and low power to dampen the overzealous ball velocity that this creates. Oblique correction is then employed, because horizontal ball momentum then swamps the low power. Without correction, you can hit center shots from a stationary ball, but not one barreling down a return lane or exiting from a ramp, as the momentum drags it off to the side. The lower the flipper power, the higher the correction; 6.5 to 7.5 - a pretty extreme angle - is not uncommon. But oblique correction is itself a fudge that drags balls away from a low angle shot towards a target bank set above a return lane. Besides, low power flippers are noticably spongier, particularly towards the tips.

All true so far?

Now even with the accepted compromises, what typically happens on a lot of tables is the gameplay is unrealistically fast. And any 'solution' is going to have to entail ramping up the flipper power while keeping the fast flipper speeds as they are, thus making a game even more unmanageable. So what to do?

Well, the recent revelation that any VP ball can be customed-sized at the point of creation may now have provided us with a lateral-thinking answer, and it is this: employ the faster and stronger flippers by which the oblique correction can be turned down if not off entirely, but slow the ball down visually by giving it farther to travel. Scale up the entire playfield - make the table, the ball, and every single component twice the size as the editor default of 47 units to one inch, and what will immediately happen is the on-screen movement of the ball, while otherwise still looking the same, will be cut down to fifty percent. (NB: scale everything up, rather than scaling the ball down, because the relative sizes must remain the same. Whatever size the ball is, if the table is twice as big, the ball has to cover twice the distance.)

At present this is just a theory, and every theory needs work before it can be definiteively proven, and doubtless some experimentation and compensatory measures will be involved. For example, while gravity and elasticity settings should be reliably called upon to remain the same as we're used to now, it's a fairly safe bet that table slopes will have to increase substantially to preserve a realistic-looking level of acceleration.



Any other thoughts / observations / comments?

Edited by EalaDubhSidhe, 01 November 2011 - 03:43 AM.

[PainkillerAlice]

I personally am not a fan of oblique correction. Only one table I've played has behaved well with it (JP Salas' Spiderman table). On most others when I flip the ball when it is halfway down the left flipper (for example) it goes to a certain place, but when I flip the ball just a fraction further down the flipper, it goes WAY off to the right. The thing I would like to know, if there is a formula to get things working right as intended with the addition of oblique correction. Right now as things stand, I hate oblique correction, but Spiderman has made it tolerable.

You theory is real interesting Eala and wondering how much of an improvement on physics will happen if your theory comes into practice. Here's to the future!

Edited by Practicedummy, 02 November 2011 - 09:28 PM.

[chas]

i have experimented with reversing speed and power on some tables that might have some lag at the end of the flipper.
did not seem to matter.
still had some lag.
oth, it might be the PC CPU processor.
2.2 single core.
some say they have no lag.
maybe a slow CPU could be the problem.

Edited by chas, 01 November 2011 - 09:11 AM.

[JAM0]

VP flipper settings, for one reason of another, have never been perfect to our satisfaction, mainly down to the enduring issue of how to create center shots that can be hit, with accuracy, from every single flip under every single circumstance. The accepted compromise is generally a combination of high flipper speed, and low power; high speed so that the ball is realistically flipped rather than pushed, and low power to dampen the overzealous ball velocity that this creates. Oblique correction is then employed, because horizontal ball momentum then swamps the low power. Without correction, you can hit center shots from a stationary ball, but not one barreling down a return lane or exiting from a ramp, as the momentum drags it off to the side. The lower the flipper power, the higher the correction; 6.5 to 7.5 - a pretty extreme angle - is not uncommon. But oblique correction is itself a fudge that drags balls away from a low angle shot towards a target bank set above a return lane. Besides, low power flippers are noticably spongier, particularly towards the tips.

All true so far?

Now even with the accepted compromises, what typically happens on a lot of tables is the gameplay is unrealistically fast. And any 'solution' is going to have to entail ramping up the flipper power while keeping the fast flipper speeds as they are, thus making a game even more unmanageable. So what to do?

Well, the recent revelation that any VP ball can be customed-sized at the point of creation may now have provided us with a lateral-thinking answer, and it is this: employ the faster and stronger flippers by which the oblique correction can be turned down if not off entirely, but slow the ball down visually by giving it farther to travel. Scale up the entire playfield - make the table, the ball, and every single component twice the size as the editor default of 47 units to one inch, and what will immediately happen is the on-screen movement of the ball, while otherwise still looking the same, will be cut down to fifty percent. (NB: scale everything up, rather than scaling the ball down, because the relative sizes must remain the same. Whatever size the ball is, if the table is twice as big, the ball has to cover twice the distance.)

At present this is just a theory, and every theory needs work before it can be definiteively proven, and doubtless some experimentation and compensatory measures will be involved. For example, while gravity and elasticity settings should be reliably called upon to remain the same as we're used to now, it's a fairly safe bet that table slopes will have to increase substantially to preserve a realistic-looking level of acceleration.



Any other thoughts / observations / comments?

All I can say is "brilliant"!

Edited by JAM0, 01 November 2011 - 11:35 AM.

[thewool]

This is an interesting theory, some good reading there. Ball speed is definitely a significant factor in the oblique issue.

My experiences as a cab user are that I find flipper response time is slightly slower than say a desktop user, probably because as a result of the LCD response time. A fast ball speed in a table accentuates this. Something I recently started tweaking on a table to counter this effect is the 'dampening speed'. This can be reduced by 5-15 points without severely affecting the physics on the rest of the table. The effect in reality is that the ball travels a little bit slower (with more resistance) and can feel 'heavier' which I think is more realistic. As it runs down the flippers a tad slower this may mean the centre shots are a bit more achieveable? For most centre shots that need accuracy oi find myself trapping the ball on the flipper and then making the shot from a stand still as you described Eala.

I did start messing around with the oblique settings in CFTBL (as I was fiddling with all the physics settings) as the snack bar shots/movie theatre lane are required to progress, as are the K.I.S.S. and Slide targets at the lower sides. By upping the oblique there was a trade off as I could make the centre shots but then couldn't hit the side targets, I also seemed to lose accuracy with the other angled shots. It seems that no setting is ideal and it takes a comibation of things to try and find a results which is as close to the real thing as possible.

[settingsons]

Very interesting post eala. I guess the ultimate test would be to be to have two 'identical' tables one built the conventional way and the other in the newly suggested method, so an evaluation of physics, feel and such can be undertaken. Could this be a relatively simple table that comprises of the most common table parts - i guess it needn't be that elaborate.

I was also interested in what you said thewool about the dampening effect - i need to give that a go because i often feel that the ball needs to feel more weighty.

[rob046]

Definitely an interesting theory. It could help at least a little, just not sure if its something that would catch on even if it did help. & I wonder if other issues might arise by doing this.

Physics are already better than they used to be. Or I should say we have the tools (settings) to make them a lot better.

I've been able to get some tables to play pretty close to real life just by messing with the stuff mentioned already. I do find oblique corrections of 6 or 7 to often be a little much as they can make side shots harder than they should be to make. I'll bump this setting down to maybe 3 or 4, depending on the table.
I also think that dampening is an underrated setting cuz it can help reduce a problem I used to hate, which is the ball getting extremely overpowered on back flips. In real life a mid air back flip would normally be a less powerful shot than say a full flip of the ball coming off an inlane, but in VP its often been the opposite.
It seems like a well tweaked oblique & dampening setting along with the right basic flipper settings can yield pretty good results.

I've also noticed a lot of tables having pretty enhanced gravity settings. The default is 1, but people really jack it up to like 1.6 or 1.7. One thing I've wanted to investigate is what the difference is between gravity & slope settings. Because isn't increasing the slope doing the same thing that increased gravity settings would do?
Do both of these settings do basically the same thing?

I feel that a lot of tables play too fast, or the ball falls too fast down the PF, & I can only assume this is because there is a healthy slope already, then combine a 1.6+ gravity setting on top of that, it just seems like too much. Why can't we leave gravity at 1 & only adjust slope?
I feel like there must be a reason that maybe other people know about. Maybe the gravity helps with flipper physics somehow in a way that slope can't. IDK. But if anybody would like to fill me in on why authors use the gravity settings they do instead of relying on slope, I'd like to know why.

[Noah Fentz]

The gravity setting, Rob, is what's used to eliminate that 'floaty' feeling VP8 had. I always reduce the slopes to anywhere between 5.5 and 7.5, but I've also been increasing the friction to 0.004, from the default of 0.0025. This seems to be more accurate to me for a ball rolling through open areas.

They are definitely two different settings with very different effects. The goal would be to find the 'sweet spot' amongst them.

I'll have a release in a little while here with these new settings for you to check out.

[GRONI]

I have found my personal best Flipper Settings the last Weeks. I spent lots of Days to tweak them to be most realistic (as possible). So every shot is now accurate as hell, and they have a nice
feelings of elasticity and gravity. Also low speed movements are possible better now to do Ball Sorting with 3 Balls on a flipper nicley by just tapping the flippers. Also Flipovers are very accurate now.
Also the "One to shot one remain" Shot is good now. Means you have 2 Balls holding on the Flipper, you tap the Button, and just one Ball flips aways, and the other remains in his position.

These settings will be first used on LOTR and Banzai Run. So test them out when the tables are released.

Greetz

GRONI

[PainkillerAlice]

Looking forward to that Groni!

[JAM0]

Sounds fantastic Groni!

[EalaDubhSidhe]

Another good reason to adopt double-sized playfields for speed control is the excessive default VPM nudge then immediately gets cuts in half as well.

[Noah Fentz]

I have found my personal best Flipper Settings the last Weeks. I spent lots of Days to tweak them to be most realistic (as possible). So every shot is now accurate as hell, and they have a nice
feelings of elasticity and gravity. Also low speed movements are possible better now to do Ball Sorting with 3 Balls on a flipper nicley by just tapping the flippers. Also Flipovers are very accurate now.
Also the "One to shot one remain" Shot is good now. Means you have 2 Balls holding on the Flipper, you tap the Button, and just one Ball flips aways, and the other remains in his position.

These settings will be first used on LOTR and Banzai Run. So test them out when the tables are released.

Greetz

GRONI

May I ask what flipper speed you're using?

[tipoto]

I have found my personal best Flipper Settings the last Weeks. I spent lots of Days to tweak them to be most realistic (as possible). So every shot is now accurate as hell, and they have a nice
feelings of elasticity and gravity. Also low speed movements are possible better now to do Ball Sorting with 3 Balls on a flipper nicley by just tapping the flippers. Also Flipovers are very accurate now.
Also the "One to shot one remain" Shot is good now. Means you have 2 Balls holding on the Flipper, you tap the Button, and just one Ball flips aways, and the other remains in his position.

These settings will be first used on LOTR and Banzai Run. So test them out when the tables are released.

Greetz

GRONI

Sometimes it's very complicated to get everything with one unique setting. So my option for that is to use differents flippers one on top of each others and I animate the visibility. I have one timer for the up and another one for the down, then with the script you can do whatever you want

[Greywolf]

quick note: The effect is "damping", not "dampening". One means "toning back" or "debouncing", while the other means "getting slightly wet".

[kevinleedrum]

I have found my personal best Flipper Settings the last Weeks. I spent lots of Days to tweak them to be most realistic (as possible). So every shot is now accurate as hell, and they have a nice
feelings of elasticity and gravity. Also low speed movements are possible better now to do Ball Sorting with 3 Balls on a flipper nicley by just tapping the flippers. Also Flipovers are very accurate now.
Also the "One to shot one remain" Shot is good now. Means you have 2 Balls holding on the Flipper, you tap the Button, and just one Ball flips aways, and the other remains in his position.

These settings will be first used on LOTR and Banzai Run. So test them out when the tables are released.

Greetz

GRONI

Sometimes it's very complicated to get everything with one unique setting. So my option for that is to use differents flippers one on top of each others and I animate the visibility. I have one timer for the up and another one for the down, then with the script you can do whatever you want

This thread continues to blow my mind. Please continue I like these pinball physics discussions.

[JAM0]

I have found my personal best Flipper Settings the last Weeks. I spent lots of Days to tweak them to be most realistic (as possible). So every shot is now accurate as hell, and they have a nice
feelings of elasticity and gravity. Also low speed movements are possible better now to do Ball Sorting with 3 Balls on a flipper nicley by just tapping the flippers. Also Flipovers are very accurate now.
Also the "One to shot one remain" Shot is good now. Means you have 2 Balls holding on the Flipper, you tap the Button, and just one Ball flips aways, and the other remains in his position.

These settings will be first used on LOTR and Banzai Run. So test them out when the tables are released.

Greetz

GRONI

Sometimes it's very complicated to get everything with one unique setting. So my option for that is to use differents flippers one on top of each others and I animate the visibility. I have one timer for the up and another one for the down, then with the script you can do whatever you want

This thread continues to blow my mind. Please continue I like these pinball physics discussions.

Agree, this thread is about a possible paradigm shift in VP. I knew some tables played faster than real for me and I always thought it was my system -- now I am not so sure. I still enjoy these tables immensely but I just wish my reflexes were faster

Interesting how this doubling of the play-feild could theoretically address several problems at once.

[007]

(LOL @ Greywolf)

All we need is a macro to resize the tables, then.

[rob046]

Another good reason to adopt double-sized playfields for speed control is the excessive default VPM nudge then immediately gets cuts in half as well.

Good point, that would definitely be a perk. I've got a customized VBS to fine tune my nudge settings, but I'm sure most people don't want to bother with that confusing stuff.
This probably still doesn't fix the center nudge pushing the ball upwards in mid air, but since I feel the default strengths are easily 2x+ what they should be, at least that would be tamed.
So are you working on a test table or anything, or just throwing this idea out to somebody who might have time to toy around with it? I don't, but I'd like to see this at least get tried.

[EalaDubhSidhe]

Well, it's going to be complicated, because every single playfield componenet you're currently used to would have to be rebuilt as well. It's not as simple as scaling everything up by two*, as this must be done in every dimension, heights as well. Plus, every ramp on a table will need the widths adjusted manually.


*I would actually scale it up slightly larger and adopt a scale of 96 units to one inch, rather than 94 (the VP default being 47). I approach VP like a real-world designer would, who is used to software and components that measure in fractions of inches. 96 is the most mathematically convenient figure to do this, being divisible into halves/quarters/eighths/sixteenths, and also thirds/sixths/twelfths. So anything you can measure with a standard academic ruler, you can apply here. (Surely it's worth adopting the same system from a design perspective for this reason alone.)