49 replies to this topic

[Dark Cypher]

Hi All,

Ive seen a lot of VP and FP types saying that FP has crap physics and Ive played dumb for a long time and ignored the comments. Finaly I'd like to know what its all about. In my humble opinion (not that it matters) FP has great physics. Can someone explain (give specific examples) what all the discussion is about. And the talk about updating the physics in a later version? How would you update it, Make it the same as VP? no please. Don't want a VP/FP argument just the facts and some good old fashion discussion thanks.

DC

[destruk]

Any version of FP
Try a table with standard slingshot rubbers. Like Roney's Mission Impossible game. Play it a few times. Notice how when the ball hits the left side of the right slingshot, near the top of the slingshot, when the kicker arm fires, the ball gets launched straight up and to the right, to go into the outlane. Notice how the ball hitting bumpers in other tables can go off in odd directions at varying speeds. Other rubbers on the table send the ball in weird directions too. Have you ever tried to aim at a ramp and make it 3 or 4 times in a row on a future pinball table? I can't do it no matter how hard I try for games that return the ball to an inlane via ramp. Either my timing is just that far off, or the flipper physics can't be used to aim with. With VP I can at least time my shots to make a consecutive ramp or loop shot if I need to. Download Naruto and see how difficult it is to make the under playfield orbit through either the right loop or the spinner. Try to enable the taget practice game mode and try to aim your shots at the drop targets as they rise and fall - that's quite difficult because the physics just aren't accurate. When a ball hits a spinner in FP it'll sometimes stop completely dead in its tracks too. I haven't seen that happen on a real pinball table, and it never happens in VP unless the ball hits the support side wire. Not a dead center shot certainly.

And yeah, VP's physics are better, but I wouldn't think Future Pinball would be satisfactory with VP's physics engine - it is Future Pinball, so nothing less than PhysX or Havoc would make me happy at this point for it. I want it to truly be the "Real Pinball Simulator" as so many people state in their tables they make for it - I want true ball spin/english, a real 3d physics engine in 3 dimensions with accurate magnet effects. I want the physics to truly be worthy of "Future Pinball". I was playing some of the Pinball Dreams/digital illusions games, and for those, FP's physics are better than the original pc/amiga games were, so if you're just playing those chances are you won't notice the quirks.

PuzzleBox is another example - launch the ball - the ball rolls up the shooter lane, hits the gate, and sometimes ends up on top of the back plastic - stuck. Wire gates tend to fly off their hinges and land wherever. Balls literally fly out of the table onto the carpet sometimes. These are just a few of the 'physics issues' Future Pinball will exhibit if you play long enough under the required conditions. In VP the table designer can take steps to fix these things, to prevent them from happening. In Future Pinball you have strong, strongest, medium, weakest, weaker, stronger, and no ball control to even start to try.

Most games, you just look at the pretty graphics, and 'play' the machine without paying much attention. Like Flame Reaper SE - it looks so good and the layout makes sense, and the game rules are good enough that you can overlook the physics problems. The moment you have multiball and one ball simply disappears out of play for no reason, well, that's a game breaker for me. And it can't be fixed without changing the exe, which we don't have the ability...well, now I'm getting distraught. Hopefully someone else can explain their views on your discussion topic.

[ruckage]

I'm definately an FP person, I've only made tables for FP and play it more but I do also enjoy a game on VP.

For the most part the physics in FP are pretty good imo but it isn't perfect. The flippers have improved overtime but I do find it very difficult to aim with them - the ball just doesn't go where I expect it to. Admittedly I'm not great at pinball but I can aim the ball much easier on a VP table. That's not say FP is bad, there are still many great tables on it and with good design you can get around any deficiencies with the physics engine. I personally just like to think of the physics in FP and VP being different.

[Rawd]

I agree with the above two comments.

I also love FP, and originally built my cab around the software (knowing nothing of VP9 at the time). At that time, I also did not see or feel anything wrong with FP physics.

It wasn't until I had a few good games with VP9, and then went back to FP that I noticed the improved physics in VP9.

In FP, the ball just doesn't seem to roll fast enough, and it is tough to aim with the flippers. The ball also has next to no bounce when it hits wood or metal it seems. I feel like I have much more control of the ball with VP9.

I do however think that the ball 'spin' physics are better with FP. The spin of the ball seems to affect the direction of bounce better than in VP9.

[Steve Paradis]

I'm no physic specialist, like most of the person on this board, so I don't really care as long as the table is fun.

Edited by Steve Paradis, 02 February 2010 - 02:50 PM.

[rossicomputers]

I'm definately an FP person, I've only made tables for FP and play it more but I do also enjoy a game on VP.

For the most part the physics in FP are pretty good imo but it isn't perfect. The flippers have improved overtime but I do find it very difficult to aim with them - the ball just doesn't go where I expect it to. Admittedly I'm not great at pinball but I can aim the ball much easier on a VP table. That's not say FP is bad, there are still many great tables on it and with good design you can get around any deficiencies with the physics engine. I personally just like to think of the physics in FP and VP being different.

Ruckage,

How is doing you Vampire Revamp???

[Rawd]

Download some of the duplicates.. (Rolling Stones, Galaxy, Eight-ball, Black-Pyramid). Play a few games on the VP table, and then switch to FP or vice-versa. You don't need to be a physics major to see which one plays more true to a real life pinball machine.

The more VP duplicates that come out, the more I find myself removing the FP counterparts from my cab.

I never understood the VP/FP 'rivalry'. They are both great programs with their own pros and cons.

[The Loafer]

It's video pinball, so I accept that there are inadequacies with both engines. Sure with FP, the ball aiming isn’t as good but that doesn’t mean the games can’t be fun and your mind can be trained for “different” physics (I prefer to choose the word “different” as opposed to “crappy” as it really is in the eye of the beholder).

For me, non-support of VPM aside, I love playing originals on FP, and real life conversions on VP and I adjust to the physics, just like I adjusted just a short year ago or so when I’d get the occasional ball-through-flipper vp8.1 bugs that lasted how many years? I still had fun playing those anyway.

If ever FP gets “VP type physics or better”, then I’ll revisit that subject at that time. Randy mentioned last time a sort-of hint at an upgraded VP (maybe with a 3d engine?). I’m not sitting around waiting, I’m enjoying all the great VP9/FP tables that we have now, thank you much authors .

The best compliment I can provide BOTH platforms (and their respective physics fun factor) is this: I’ve never played as much video pinball as I have in the past 5 months, this moment in time friends is the true golden age of virtual pinball. Things can only get better, and I’m hanging around for the ride .

Loaf

[ravenriser]

FP was my introduction to recreated Pinball on the PC, and there are some tables I love, primarily Sphere's originals. The problem FP has is with the recreation tables, they play nothing like the real machines, yet look stunning.

VP in my opinion is currently about as close as you can get to the feel of pinball, with recreations that is on PC.

I would also love to see a 3d engine for VP in the future, or with FP, that integrates the use of magnets and that addresses spin and weight of the ball a lot more.


Todd.

[Mudfinger]

If there was a Pinball Simulator that had............

The Graphics and 3D engine of FUTURE PINBALL
The ball physics of VISUAL PINBALL 9
and support for Pinmame......

all would be entirely different.

Look, anyone of us can say we love FP and don't mind the bad physics , because it looks so good.
BUT
It's a fact that the physics are awful. It's not really a mater of opinion.
that is unless Einstein was wrong, and the laws of physics apply to each of us differently.

Every so often I check the FP website and see if there's a new build that fixes this, but so far....no good.
...and what a shame, because some of the tables folks have made for it look so Spectacular!
All that hard work anad many of us don't bother to even DL them.....

[Mr. Pacman]

For me, physics play the most important role in pinball emulation/simulation. Its exactly the same situation with Pool simulators...its not only about aiming, its about the feeling....pinball emulation is very fake without proper physics...People who have played with real pinball tables can feel the difference...personally i can't have fun with something that supposed to be a pinball simulator and can't make me have a similar impression of playing with a physical metallic ball which hits rubbers, metal surfaces and reacts with a certain way in every move...

FP is better compared to some ancient dos emulators but, its just an eye candy compared to VP...

[settingsons]

The Weight of the Ball?

I agree how the physics are absolutely crucial to enjoy the game. I need to forget I am not playing real pinball and with VP I do most of the time. The Physics are not just about the ball movement around the table but the way it responds to key presses. There is just something which I am not sure was maybe just slightly (and I mean slightly) better in the Pro-Pinball series. I haven't played them for years now so maybe I am imagining them being better, but at the time The Web came out which was after many years of playing the early Epic pinballs, Pinball illusions, etc. I remember with Pro Pinball for the first time ever on a computer of having a feeling of the weight of a real ball-bearing when I hit the flipper. It felt like the harder I pressed the flipper (and I think hard presses are longer presses) the faster the ball would go. Now I know a button is only digital (on or off) but I reckon they must have had some logic to say the longer the key is pressed the harder it must have been pressed. Does this make sense? Is this kind of logic in VP? Unfortunatey my netbook can't play tables smooth enough for me to tell, so I would be interested to know what people think.

BTW - The reason I only have a netbook is I am working away from home for 12 months. I did manage to hook up the netbook to a 32" widescreen TV in the room I rent, and I laid the TV on its back and used the netbbook screen to run UVP - the closest I will get to a cabinet for a while! Anyway although the ball was jumpy I managed to look the rendering of some of the JP Salas tables, and they looked so damn good - just like the real tables - I just can't wait to get home and build a cabinet - 3 months left!

Edited by settingsons, 02 February 2010 - 10:04 PM.

[Greywolf]

I don't know about VP (haven't tried in a while), but in FP, everything Destruk said holds true.

In addition: The spinners move like you're playing underwater -- due to the limitations of the newton engine, there is no "gravity" to speak of. Black has to work with backspin forces to even make spinners work.

Ditto the gates: They hang straight down instead of being able to rest on their supports, something I really wish could be worked around. The gates swing like spinners should. The pass-thru gate triggers should fairly spring back into place.

I would love to see true physics make their way into FP, and I think that's something that Black's trying to do for the next release.

The other thing that gets me is the flippers: You tap the flipper button lightly, and you hear the sound, but the flipper does not move. If the flipper moves, it goes full pulse. There is no way to do a flipper pass from one ball to the other, or to bounce the ball over a center post to the other flipper, because the flipper either activates or it doesn't.

These kinds of subtleties are exactly why the programmer should have a pinball player of some stature on their staff, even if only advisory. It would really help iron this stuff out.

[Steve Paradis]

I think this was debated a lot over the years, and it is not constructive to pursue this discussion
because it is all based on personnal taste. You like FP, excellent. You Don't like FP, Excellent also.

I think we don't need another thread about that,There is simply no good or bad answer.

It is like trying to argue who's doing the best Spaghetti sauce.


Steve

[settingsons]

I think it is absolutely right that both programs have their own strengths and weaknesses but one thing is for sure they both produce top-notch pinball simulation - the best we have ever seen and they should live side by side. It is only constructive to debate how things can be improved and I am sure each product can learn from the other.

Edited by settingsons, 02 February 2010 - 10:41 PM.

[faralos]

i agree with the moderator, personal nonrunning issues aside (FP won't run on my computer at all) i used to play it when I had my old computer when I first started to play virtual pins. I remember FP was so much easier to code but the ball always felt like I was hitting a ping-pong ball around the field. it kind of 'floated' and when it hit a rubber it'd go where I'd least expect it to. but rubbers were a cinch to make (wish they were that easy in vp!). So you like hot dogs I like hamburgers...it's all meat though just different tastes! Same with fp vs. vp! we could argue this till we start to call each other names and end up all pissed at each other, OR we could just go on playing our respective loved games! whether they be FP or VP as long as you like it that's all that really matters. Hey we still all are pinheads no matter the program used. So i will straddle the fence here and not say which is better, they are both good. You all know which one I build in so it doesn't matter what i say anyhow heck I could go on to say that VP9 is better than VP8 and I'd still get people vehemently arguing against that too. so again just because you like it is no reason I should blast ya' for it. to each his/her own...
So to quote a famous non-person. "Live long and prosper!" Nanu Nanu and all that

Edited by faralos, 02 February 2010 - 10:44 PM.

[settingsons]

The other thing that gets me is the flippers: You tap the flipper button lightly, and you hear the sound, but the flipper does not move. If the flipper moves, it goes full pulse. There is no way to do a flipper pass from one ball to the other, or to bounce the ball over a center post to the other flipper, because the flipper either activates or it doesn't.

Hi Greywolf,

I think your description describes it perfectly and is tied to my earlier point about feeling the weight of the ball - the ball reacting to the length of the key press. A quick press being interpreted more softly and a longer (usually) harder press the opposite. This kind of behaviour has to be analysed using a real pinball and hopefully some subtle coding changes could make all the difference to the 'feel' of the pinball experience.

[Noah Fentz]

As long as this discussion remains civil, there is no reason it can't be discussed.

[Rawd]

I think this was debated a lot over the years, and it is not constructive to pursue this discussion
because it is all based on personnal taste. You like FP, excellent. You Don't like FP, Excellent also.

I think we don't need another thread about that,There is simply no good or bad answer.

It is like trying to argue who's doing the best Spaghetti sauce.


Steve

Sorry Steve, but I disagree. I have not been around the forums for years to hear or see the discussion on this topic, and I find it an interesting one. It could be a constructive topic, if Chris was listening, and wanted to make his software better. There have been some really good points made here about the faults in Future Pinballs physics, and I think that is what the OP was looking for.

I don't think it is about whether or not people 'Like or don't like FP'. It is just a discussion about what could be improved.

I don't think it is about 'taste' or preference. It is about the laws of physics.

[smakx]

I enjoy both vp and fp immensely. That being said, I feel that vp's physics are more accurate. I still think fp physics are pretty good, just not as good. Some fp tables seem much better than others in this regard, I don't know if it has to do with the actual layouts of the tables or something that some authors do and others do not.

As far as examples go, the best I can come up with is Sorcerer. VP and FP both have outstanding versions of this table available. Play a game on each and you will notice the difference in ball behavior. To me it seems that sometimes it is hard to hit shots twords the top of the table in fp, like the ramp on sorcerer in this example. It is much more difficult to hit this ramp in fp than in the vp version of the table. Additionally, I have a harder time aiming shots at the 'sorcerer' array in the center of the table than I do in the vp version. Some of this can be attributed to table design of course, but this is just one case I can think of off hand. In any case, I am not dogging on fp. FP has a real 3d engine and can produce stellar lighting and graphics. Put vp's physics engine and vpmame support into fp and you would have something close to holy.