29 replies to this topic

[pinball lover]

Ladies and Gents,

 

its about this table:

 

https://youtu.be/Al02vRazm5k

 

I have read in another Youtube Video, that this table has been banned because of Copyright Infringement.

https://youtu.be/A6ym1QWkf4M

"its a banned ( DISCONTINUE TABLE ) due to copyrights you wont find on any sites. Some kind member might provide a dropbox or google link though."

Is this due to the 5 Years, that must pass for the table to be released ? Or is this table banned permanently ?
 

Edited by pinball lover, 17 November 2021 - 03:19 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

This version used assets from Farsight's Stern Pinball Arcade software obtained through Steam.

It's a no go, probably forever. Who knows? 20 years can make a big difference. You'll just have to be patient, I guess.

[toxie]

AFAIK this wasn't about the table itself, but rather that the special "emulation" was build so that it required a .dll that came with Stern Pinball Arcade.

And that part was considered as not-so-nice. So i don't think that there was even a real drama going on, but rather a ask to not do that.

[pinball lover]

Thanks! Another Question to KISS 2015, i just want to understand the rules.
So every new table must be at least 5 Years old, when it comes to an recreation right ?

[wiesshund]

Thanks! Another Question to KISS 2015, i just want to understand the rules.
So every new table must be at least 5 Years old, when it comes to an recreation right ?

 

Complicated question.

 

To do a table when the Manufacturer would still be able to gain profits from the table, is a dick thing to do.

Unless one's wish is to finally kill off the barely there pinball industry piece by piece.

 

5 years After it is ceased production, is probably a good bet that there wont be any financial harm
UNLESS
The manufacturer has entered into a licensing deal of some sort with a developer of virtual pinball machines, like Zen / Farsight etc

 

But then there is another part of that.
The machine uses a ROM
Pinmame does not emulate the controller.

That too has to go out of production for some time, and that may take longer
A controller will ultimately be used across many products, for years.

 

Spike 2 is still in active use today, so no Spike 2 emulation any time soon.

And spike 1 has not been out of use long enough, ghostbusters took the wrong approach there, and just stole parts of a retail money making product
to make the emulation work.

 

And then there is a 3rd thing
Some manufacturers do NOT want their stuff emulated, nor recreated even sans emulation, in case they wish to enter into a future agreement
with a commercial software developer.

I think Jersey Jack falls into that category.

There is also the situation like we have with Gottlieb
There is a slight difference there, ignoring the legal standpoint.
There is no such company as Gottlieb anymore.
No Pinball manufacturer named Gottlieb.
No one manufactures Pinball Tables under any of the Gottlieb names, markets and sells them, to pay their employees, so they can feed their families.

All you have there is someone who bought the IP, to hang onto it, and try and resell it later at a profit for no effort.
They do have Legal justification, but the Vpin community has probably done magnitudes more towards making sure Gottlieb is not forgotten than they ever will.

 

 

End of the day it boils down to this

Dont screw with a still functioning Pinball Manufacturer, there are damned few left, and in 20 years time, ultimately there will probably be none left.
Let them live for as long as possible, which means keeping the whole chain alive
Manufacturer, distributor, reseller, operator, customer etc.

 

There are 10,000 other tables one can recreated
There are 100,000,000 Original machines one can create.

Edited by wiesshund, 17 November 2021 - 07:00 PM.

[Auxinator]

The Future Pinball version is just as good. It's not your normal Future Pinball release. The physics is nice on it. No pup packs but oh well.

[wiesshund]

The Future Pinball version is just as good. It's not your normal Future Pinball release. The physics is nice on it. No pup packs but oh well.

 

GB was spike 1 anyways
It had no PUP like display unless i am mistaken?

[htamas]

It's not your normal Future Pinball release. The physics is nice on it.

 

That'd be the first if it was true 

I've got try to see it I guess 

[wiesshund]

 

It's not your normal Future Pinball release. The physics is nice on it.

 

That'd be the first if it was true 

I've got try to see it I guess 

 

A lot of FP tables do have nice physics

Newer ones made with BAM or that someone like Terry has redone

It isnt VPX physics, but it is nice for FP

 

And Terry can show you how to mod the physics on nearly any FP table previously done with out any good physics
 

My FP collection is very small, but those that i do have all have updated physics, either by the author, or by me after the fact.
they play a lot nicer

[rpinball]

 

Thanks! Another Question to KISS 2015, i just want to understand the rules.
So every new table must be at least 5 Years old, when it comes to an recreation right ?

 

Complicated question.

 

To do a table when the Manufacturer would still be able to gain profits from the table, is a dick thing to do.

Unless one's wish is to finally kill off the barely there pinball industry piece by piece.

 

5 years After it is ceased production, is probably a good bet that there wont be any financial harm
UNLESS
The manufacturer has entered into a licensing deal of some sort with a developer of virtual pinball machines, like Zen / Farsight etc

 

But then there is another part of that.
The machine uses a ROM
Pinmame does not emulate the controller.

That too has to go out of production for some time, and that may take longer
A controller will ultimately be used across many products, for years.

 

Spike 2 is still in active use today, so no Spike 2 emulation any time soon.

And spike 1 has not been out of use long enough, ghostbusters took the wrong approach there, and just stole parts of a retail money making product
to make the emulation work.

 

And then there is a 3rd thing
Some manufacturers do NOT want their stuff emulated, nor recreated even sans emulation, in case they wish to enter into a future agreement
with a commercial software developer.

I think Jersey Jack falls into that category.

There is also the situation like we have with Gottlieb
There is a slight difference there, ignoring the legal standpoint.
There is no such company as Gottlieb anymore.
No Pinball manufacturer named Gottlieb.
No one manufactures Pinball Tables under any of the Gottlieb names, markets and sells them, to pay their employees, so they can feed their families.

All you have there is someone who bought the IP, to hang onto it, and try and resell it later at a profit for no effort.
They do have Legal justification, but the Vpin community has probably done magnitudes more towards making sure Gottlieb is not forgotten than they ever will.

 

 

End of the day it boils down to this

Dont screw with a still functioning Pinball Manufacturer, there are damned few left, and in 20 years time, ultimately there will probably be none left.
Let them live for as long as possible, which means keeping the whole chain alive
Manufacturer, distributor, reseller, operator, customer etc.

 

There are 10,000 other tables one can recreated
There are 100,000,000 Original machines one can create.

 

just also my opinion, well spoken

[licwip]

Well put, Weisshund. I wish anyone entering the hobby would be aware of all of this. Messaging this would be very beneficial, IMO.

[njk70]

 

And Terry can show you how to mod the physics on nearly any FP table previously done with out any good physics
 

My FP collection is very small, but those that i do have all have updated physics, either by the author, or by me after the fact.
they play a lot nicer

 

 

 

 

 

Is there a guide for doing this? I only tried FP tables a few times and I found it unplayable, felt like the ball was filled with helium and just floating around. But I don't think I was trying anything recent. Graphically I thought things looked really really good.

[wiesshund]

 

 

And Terry can show you how to mod the physics on nearly any FP table previously done with out any good physics
 

My FP collection is very small, but those that i do have all have updated physics, either by the author, or by me after the fact.
they play a lot nicer

 

 

 

 

 

Is there a guide for doing this? I only tried FP tables a few times and I found it unplayable, felt like the ball was filled with helium and just floating around. But I don't think I was trying anything recent. Graphically I thought things looked really really good.

 

 

There is, i got it from Terry Red
i dont have the link handy but ping him, he can direct you to it

[StevOz]

FP physics guide available here.

https://pinballnirva...-physics.20001/

Though this is just the beginning further work is in process here.

https://pinballnirva...lly-1982.20652/

Also here...

https://pinballnirva...seawitch.21138/

DFv2 brings a new level of ball control allowing for live catch (difficulty adjustable in the script), tap passes, drop catch, flicker pass and really good aiming.

Edited by StevOz, 19 November 2021 - 10:57 AM.

[fripounet]

rpinball, le 18 Nov 2021 - 08:23 AM, a dit:

 

wiesshund, le 17 Nov 2021 - 7:58 PM, a dit:

 

 

Il n’existe plus d’entreprise comme Gottlieb.
Aucun fabricant de flipper nommé Gottlieb.
Personne ne fabrique de tables de flipper sous aucun des noms Gottlieb, ne les commercialise et ne les vend, pour payer leurs employés, afin qu’ils puissent nourrir leurs familles.

Tout ce que vous avez, c’est quelqu’un qui a acheté la propriété intellectuelle, pour s’y accrocher et essayer de la revendre plus tard à profit sans effort.
Ils ont une justification légale, mais la communauté Vpin a probablement fait plus pour s’assurer que Gottlieb ne soit pas oublié qu’elle ne le fera jamais.

???..if they feel like it, they can make reissues or under license ; just find a business partner for manufacturing ($$$).

but is it really a buoyant market ?.....given the low volume, this is more of a speculative article.

 

https://gottliebpin.com/index.html

 

and copyright :

https://gottliebpin.com/products.html

Edited by fripounet, 19 November 2021 - 01:50 PM.

[TerryRed]

There have been some new significant updates on FP's physics as the result of combined efforts from JLou / shiva / ravarcade and others to allow FP to finally do proper live catches / tap passes / deadflip / rolling - flick passes / post passes,etc with dynamic coils and EOS swtiches... and more control over other parts of physics dynamically. No more flippers that are just on / off and no more super wide shots from the flippers. Is it as good as VPX? No. Can it continue to get better? Sure. Any improvement is always welcome, and I think it may surprise many who haven't played FP in years.

 

It's still needing lot of tweaking and improvement... but then again, VPX didnt release with nFozzy physics on day one either. With the right time and passion... a lot can be done. Add on top of that the other great features ravarcade added to FP with BAM (for table authors... lot of new features), and tables can be made to look amazing... even for those of us who aren't Blender gurus (me). Just look at the crazy stuff I'm doing with Silent Hill and RetroFlair 2.

 

...and yes smoke's Ghostbusters on FP is really well done, and plays good too (even without the new DF2 physics, though it would play even better with DF2). It still could use some updated BAM lighting that would make it look much nicer (like what SLAM is doing with his mod)... but its still nicely done! (as are all smoke's releases)

 

https://pinballnirva...tern-2016.5815/

Edited by TerryRed, 19 November 2021 - 02:46 PM.

[barneyrfd]

For what it's worth (I think there is a song in there somewhere...), for the FP tables I have I usually increase the table slope and the gravity, reduce ball reflection/shininess and sometimes increase the strength of the flippers and I find these simple changes that take less than a couple of minutes really improves the play of the table (for me anyway).

[TallaNasty312]

This is just a case for logging into your VP accounts twice per day.

[pinball lover]

Ok so, the Future Pinball Version of this table is legally allowed ? So the VPX Version could also be released yet ?

[wiesshund]

Ok so, the Future Pinball Version of this table is legally allowed ? So the VPX Version could also be released yet ?

 

No, not the VPX version you are talking about.

 

the FP version uses no ROM and no stolen DLL's from Sterns retail product

 

If you want to rewrite the VPX version to be totally script driven and not use VpinSPA at all
sure you can release it then
Otherwise, if it retains VpinSPA, you wont release it here, and VPU wont let you release it, nor will any of the other reputable sites.

 

So there you go, a project for your 1st table