36 replies to this topic

[njk70]

Ok as a couple of you know from vpinball site, I've been modding the flipper button positions on my GRS cabinet. The holes are now positioned ok. They should maybe have been an 1/8" of an inch or more lower as the button barely clears the side rail but it is what it is, I'm lucky I was able to make new holes at all without screwing up the cab.

 

I used leaf switches. But they don't "feel" right to me. Was I wrong to remove the spring from the button? It was my understanding that the push back from the leaf mechanism all the tension that was used on the real machines that used them? Mine is feeling really light and airy with a bit of a hair trigger, my natural grip wants to put a slight pressure on the button.

 

 

[wiesshund]

I do not know what yours looks like, but here is what the real McCoy looks like (or used to)

 

 

You see that top piece

That, is a spring.

 

No sure if you can tell, but it is a double spring, there are 2 leaves in the spring part

 

If your switches to not have that, and all you have is the light contact leaves
then yes, i imagine it would feel like nothing is there

 

And myself, i would put the springs back in the buttons, no matter what anyone else says.
You have to play it, not us.

 

Me? yea the buttons would be sitting mashed flat all the time if there was no tension

 

Myself, i'd just opt for magnasave buttons, which would double as upper or lower buttons on tables that make use of that

even with some spring tension, i'd never finesse the things and they would just piss me off

I hate the double action trigger on my HOTAS for the same reason, so i never use it that way

Edited by wiesshund, 05 April 2021 - 10:02 AM.

[BorgDog]

actually, the bottom piece (longest one) in that pic wiess posted is the spring, not the top.  That is also a high current switch so you wouldn't want that as it won't work well for long. 

Here is a modern Stern one for low current setups 

Found here: https://www.pinballl...le-contact.html  and here is the single if you want that: https://www.pinballl...le-contact.html

In any case, the longest blade on the switch is the main spring loaded one that gives you tension on your flipper button, or if your buttons were designed for springs in them, go ahead and keep them in, or play around with them by cutting them smaller to give less tension if it then is too much with both.

 

As far as staged/dual contact flipper buttons go, once you have them setup properly and learn how to use them they are very valuable in multiballs for holding balls on the lower flipper and flipping the upper.  Takes practice to get good at it, but very useful.  That said not many VP tables make use of them as not too many people actually have them setup in their cabs, most tables just fire both at once, some are setup for magnasave, and a few give the option on how you want it to work, and no I don't have a list of which do and don't.

 

my 2 bits.

[njk70]

@wiesshund... Thats what mine look like. I can adjust the tension but it seems to either come out "airy" or feels unnaturally stiff.  I'll try the spring tonight.

@BorgDog.... interesting, I haven't seen that stern one before. I knew it was a high current model but i didn't see a double for low current, didn't seem like it should make a difference (using low on a high one) but I can switch them out.  I know I will have to do some fiddling with tables to get the double leafs to work and that was a project I wanted to take on. I don't think I would normally care but I grew up playing a machine with them so its a nostalgia thing I want to reproduce.

Edited by njk70, 05 April 2021 - 04:52 PM.

[wiesshund]

@wiesshund... Thats what mine look like. I can adjust the tension but it seems to either come out "airy" or feels unnaturally stiff.  I'll try the spring tonight.

@BorgDog.... interesting, I haven't seen that stern one before. I knew it was a high current model but i didn't see a double for low current, didn't seem like it should make a difference (using low on a high one) but I can switch them out.  I know I will have to do some fiddling with tables to get the double leafs to work and that was a project I wanted to take on. I don't think I would normally care but I grew up playing a machine with them so its a nostalgia thing I want to reproduce.

 

setup is simple

 

Change this in vpmkeys.vbs, set it to what ever input you are sending for the staged switch

if you are keyboard mapping them, use the keycode

if you are function mapping them use the function name, like leftmagnasavekey

If you have magnasaves AND staged flipps AND are not keyboard mapping them

then map them to two of the custom keys in prefs

 

' Double leaf/staged flipper switches: By default these are just set to LeftFlipperKey and RightFlipperKey

Dim keyStagedFlipperL : keyStagedFlipperL = LeftFlipperKey

Dim keyStagedFlipperR : keyStagedFlipperR = RightFlipperKey

 

Then in your tables

just change to combined flipper into 2 separate key downs/ups

 

Some tables are already set up for it, but most you will need to change yourself

 

The tables not set for it, you will probably have to make a full second flipper function
or you will wind up with silent flips, cause a lot of them just just simply say, oh yea, rotate top flipper too

but nothing difficult

[mjr]

Was I wrong to remove the spring from the button? 

 

I imagine you're talking about the coil spring inside the plastic button body.  In that case, you are correct, the later Williams machines that used leaf switches were spec'd for springless buttons, Williams/Bally part reference B-12273-x (modern substitute is Stern 500-5026-x).  The buttons with the springs (A-16883-x) are really for the later machines with opto-interruptors in place of the leaf switches (Williams Fliptronics II and later).  You can certainly use the spring buttons with the leaf switches, but it's marginally more "authentic" to use the springless ones, since that's what the leaf-switch machines shipped with originally.  Although most people probably wouldn't notice much difference, and some who do might even prefer the heavier feel of the added springs.

[njk70]

Ok. I tried a button with the spring intact (not sure if i saved all the springs).  By itself the button seemed to require about the same force to press that I had the non-spring buttons tensioned to on the leaf mechanism. But when I put the spring button in combination with the leaf mechanism i got kinda a medium tension. So that might be the right feel for me. I'm sure I could adjust the leaf switch to provide the same tension by itself but it was driving me batty. Playing it a bit more it didn't really seem to help my feel. I think they have too much of a hair trigger, they activate with very little movement of the button and I find I am triggering with my hands just tensed to react. Yes the problem is I am trying to adjust a double leaf so i had the first activate with a very light touch and the the second triggers between half and 3/4 way down. Obviously its hard to get that exact but thats what I aimed for. Guess I am not really asking anything, obviously the answer is fiddle around and see what works for me. But it helps me to talk it out and sometimes feedback from others gives me new ideas to try so I appreciate the answers/suggestions.

[Thalamus]

Yes. You're pretty much right on that one. Not all machines play differently. You are searching for something you remember back in the days. Are you sure, your memory on how sensitive those flippers where or is it that you now are over thinking it ? Your cab, will at one time, most probably be emulating a couple of hundreds of games, maybe even more. None of the machines that came out of the fabric where exactly the same. Then you've got all these companies. Some lasting much longer than others. So, actually. You might right now be 100% emulating a machine that came out of the fabric without knowing it. You should always, find something that suits you're preferences over what you read. It is your cab. Make it yours. That is my advice. And, one thing. You will play a lot, well, if you are like me. And you will also get used to the setup. Then you start complaining on the machines in the wild

[njk70]

Of course I am over thinking it!! Thats the whole point of building your own cabinet! 

 

Thats the funny thing and mjr mentions it a couple times in his guide. You get used to it.  However I mount my monitor, flipper buttons, plunger, my brain will adapt to it and I won't notice. The only time I will notice is while I am planning it and while I am fiddling with it during installation. But until then I am going to worry about every millimeter!  Also I am testing with no sound on so it already feels weird playing in utter silence.

 

I have the flippers a little better now. I left the springs in and adjusted things to not be such a hair trigger and its better, Its really hard to make small adjustments even with the leaf adjustment tool. Needs a little more fiddling. But am wiring up more buttons now. Its going to be a real rats nest of wires but I'm not too OCD about that thank goodness. Its not going to be a pretty picture. 

[wiesshund]

Ok. I tried a button with the spring intact (not sure if i saved all the springs).  By itself the button seemed to require about the same force to press that I had the non-spring buttons tensioned to on the leaf mechanism. But when I put the spring button in combination with the leaf mechanism i got kinda a medium tension. So that might be the right feel for me. I'm sure I could adjust the leaf switch to provide the same tension by itself but it was driving me batty. Playing it a bit more it didn't really seem to help my feel. I think they have too much of a hair trigger, they activate with very little movement of the button and I find I am triggering with my hands just tensed to react. Yes the problem is I am trying to adjust a double leaf so i had the first activate with a very light touch and the the second triggers between half and 3/4 way down. Obviously its hard to get that exact but thats what I aimed for. Guess I am not really asking anything, obviously the answer is fiddle around and see what works for me. But it helps me to talk it out and sometimes feedback from others gives me new ideas to try so I appreciate the answers/suggestions.

 

That is why i did not like them on the real machines LOL

I could not feel where one started and the other stopped

 

may as well have been a single linked flipper

 

Just set it up best you can what feels right to you
it's yours, there is no wrong cause no one else's opinion counts

[njk70]

Sigh just doesn't feel right. I've thought about it....and I think I got used to playing with a keyboard and I am missing the keypress feedback!! Where I can feel when the flipper is activated. I'll get my ssf and impactor turned back on, maybe that will help.

[wiesshund]

Sigh just doesn't feel right. I've thought about it....and I think I got used to playing with a keyboard and I am missing the keypress feedback!! Where I can feel when the flipper is activated. I'll get my ssf and impactor turned back on, maybe that will help.

Oh wait...

Do you have clicky keys on your keyboard?

If so, then yes, it will take you a while to get used to the tactile feed back.
My desktop keyboard, the keys are smooth, my my laptop the keys kind of have a soft click to them

It is different playing between the two.

 

arcade buttons have that, but they do not come in dual stage, and no easy way to hack one of those into dual stage
But they have the definite tactile feed back.

 

And these are not suitable for flipper buttons

https://www.otto-con...tion-pushbutton

It would mean giving up staged, and going with magnalock buttons and using those as the 2nd flippers (which is what i do, cause i know if i am pressing it or not for sure)

 

but your DOF might give you the feedback you are missing.

 

How many DOF toys do you have?
If you have unused channels, you could borrow 2
and add them to the table for the 2nd set of flips?
give some feed back to when you are kicking those in, may help with it not feeling so vague to you?

 

not sure if you have to edit your DOF configs for that or not? when i added DOF to a table, i just kept to the generic set of DOF event addresses
and it seemed to work for the person i had test it, with out having a DOF config for the table, and i repurposed a number of DOF toys that the table did not have

like the extra bumpers, i repurposed for the target reset solenoids etc.
But i had to rely on someone else to test it so...

 

Me, i will probably go with arcade style clicky buttons, and magnasave over dual stage
with no DOF, and fully acoustic audio.

Yes, i know, heresy, but it's simpler

[njk70]

And to think... I went to all the trouble of messing with leaf switch because that was the purist thing to do and the double leaf switches to boot because thats what the machine I played as a kid had.... and now I am considering arcade buttons, what has the world come to. Is there no truth any more? Is there nothing I can trust and believe in?

 

I suppose I should at least try them and see what I think for myself.

[Thalamus]

For Christ sake, don't go with arcade buttons. This are only ok to use for anything else than flippers. I said you can do what you want, but, well - not that

[njk70]

Lol, I knew you would chime in with that!   I was just playing with the vpx flippers with that in mind and I think I noticed two things. It looks like with the flippers up and you release the button you can repress quickly and the flipper goes back up without ever getting all the way back to resting (this is good). However the reverse is not true... it seems any length of press will cause the flipper to go from rest to up. My memory may be faulty but I thought on a real machine if you were light on your touch you could get a partial flip and thats how some flipper tricks were done. I know I can't expect every subtly to work and I was no magician on the flippers but it made me curious.  If we don't have that level of control then why not arcade buttons?

[Karlor]

 My memory may be faulty but I thought on a real machine if you were light on your touch you could get a partial flip and thats how some flipper tricks were done. I know I can't expect every subtly to work and I was no magician on the flippers but it made me curious.  If we don't have that level of control then why not arcade buttons?

I would love that level of control! It would be great to be able to get just a tiny flick now and then... I've used arcade buttons for my stuff for a while, you get used to them I've wanted to do leafs but Ive read more then a few threads and idk if upgrading is worth it at this point if they only function as regular buttons anyway.. but someday if the functionality comes in I'd upgrade in a minute

[Thalamus]

Personally I don't think that the current VPX code is going to give you perfect flippers. There is a lot of authors and enthusiasts that have tried to get the flippers how they play in real life. Me included. You should look at 3 types of physics. I would say you've got JP Salas on one end of the spectrum, you've got Clark Kent/Knorr kind of in the middle and then you've got Roth (nfozzy) on the other end. All have good elements. Personally I think that the Roth/Fozzy is maybe the closest to the real thing. But, it had disadvantages too. There is a lot of scripting going on so the actual values used might need to be adjusted for one cab to the next. Personally, because of the amount of solutions being tested from the community, I don't think we'll be able to nail the flippers without some extra cpp code from vpx. But, what ? That is still up for debate I guess.

 

You should be able to do what you are asking for though. But, just know. If you implement that, then there is for sure something that is going to feel "wrong". Or we could hope that you are able to find the magic pill. I've got a few tables where the tap, like you are asking for is working. But, well, to me at least the flippers themselves becomes too slow/sluggish if you implement it.

[Karlor]

Personally I don't think that the current VPX code is going to give you perfect flippers. There is a lot of authors and enthusiasts that have tried to get the flippers how they play in real life. Me included. You should look at 3 types of physics. I would say you've got JP Salas on one end of the spectrum, you've got Clark Kent/Knorr kind of in the middle and then you've got Roth (nfozzy) on the other end. All have good elements. Personally I think that the Roth/Fozzy is maybe the closest to the real thing. But, it had disadvantages too. There is a lot of scripting going on so the actual values used might need to be adjusted for one cab to the next. Personally, because of the amount of solutions being tested from the community, I don't think we'll be able to nail the flippers without some extra cpp code from vpx. But, what ? That is still up for debate I guess.

 

You should be able to do what you are asking for though. But, just know. If you implement that, then there is for sure something that is going to feel "wrong". Or we could hope that you are able to find the magic pill. I've got a few tables where the tap, like you are asking for is working. But, well, to me at least the flippers themselves becomes too slow/sluggish if you implement it.

I could definitely see how simming that functionality would be demanding and slow and could impact the flipper feel for sure.. what about some kind of hardware contraption? maybe something new.. Something that you hook your double leafs into and they go to a different control board that uses voltage reading or something and sends that to VPX as a value or something.. Would something like that maybe speed up the feel? I mean we got special boards for plungers, Leds, DOF, what about a leaf switch board lol

[wiesshund]

 but, well - not that

Oh yes

 

and that too

 

 

 

 My memory may be faulty but I thought on a real machine if you were light on your touch you could get a partial flip and thats how some flipper tricks were done. I know I can't expect every subtly to work and I was no magician on the flippers but it made me curious.  If we don't have that level of control then why not arcade buttons?

 

Might depend on the table and the flipper coils used.
Some were kinda slow, and i can see that happening

Heh the flippers on Hercules are so slow you could probably stop them at any point in time.

But i do not know if by default, VPX will stop a flipper in mid travel, guess it could be scripted?

[Thalamus]

Sure, you can get flippers not to fire all the way. I told you, you can tap pass, but, yeah. Not many tables have this in them and well, I find it harder to do than on real machines. Pretty sure you would not be able to do it via a keyboard or maybe even arcade buttons (?? - obviously untested by me)