4035 replies to this topic

[studlygoorite]

I just tested F-14 Tomcat (f14_l1) and can confirm that using 10.7 and placing the sounds (flippers, bumpers etc) onto the back glass, the sounds still come out of the exciters. Trying the same thing in 10.6 the sounds that I moved to the back glass played out of the back glass and not the exciters. Nice find Thalamus

 

I just tested Taxi (taxi_l4) and it has the same issue with 10.7, sounds moved to the back glass still play through the exciters.

Edited by studlygoorite, 13 March 2021 - 07:28 PM.

[Thalamus]

@toxie - but, if you think back - I told you it started at the very first 10.7beta. It can't be that many changes from last 10.6 to first 10.7beta ??

[toxie]

Wait.. Now i'm completely confused.. Is this now about the REAL rom sounds (so no altsound or whatever) being played on the wrong speakers?

Or some of the VP sounds?

@toxie - but, if you think back - I told you it started at the very first 10.7beta. It can't be that many changes from last 10.6 to first 10.7beta ??

Yes, but also way too much going on, both in VP world and real life 

[lukpcn]

I think there is a sound difference on Metallica Premium monsters when electrocuting the frog is happening. on 10.6 the sound of it is played by backbox speakers and in 10.7 it goes through exciters.

[toxie]

So something like 

 

Portrait 431x768

Portrait 505x900

Portrait 606x1080

Portrait 808x1440

Portrait 1212x2160

..added 

Toxie - since you are in the  code - spinners .. Is there a _EOS _BOS event to capture/trigger the begin and end of spin, or is it just a value used within vp itself.? 

I never used it myself, but yes, it should work the same as with flipper, plunger, gate.

[Thalamus]

Wait.. Now i'm completely confused.. Is this now about the REAL rom sounds (so no altsound or whatever) being played on the wrong speakers?

Or some of the VP sounds?

@toxie - but, if you think back - I told you it started at the very first 10.7beta. It can't be that many changes from last 10.6 to first 10.7beta ??

Yes, but also way too much going on, both in VP world and real life 

I don't expect this to be fixed tomorrow I just hope that you are able to see what changed. Yes, it is just vpx, behaving differently towards vpm, no extra mumble-jumble. I almost not hear it at all, have to move my body all the way back to the backglass speakers and listen, if it the at all, almost. Mind you, I haven't tested the first 10.7 release vs the list, but, I would be very surprised if that has changed. JP has more than a few tables ready for 10.7, but he shared a original with me. It has samples - wav I think, set to backglass, those too are broken. Feels like they are play by the flippers.

Edited by Thalamus, 13 March 2021 - 08:37 PM.

[Thalamus]

I'm sorry. But I've tried to clear my cache and do a lot of things to get this reply though. It is 10.7 related so I hope you don't mind me posting it here because of some vpinball weirdness going on. Pressing post and the reply won't stick.

 

reply to : https://vpinball.com.../6/#post-229189

 

@njk70 : Yes, it is very broken in some cases. If you run a original - I haven't tried them all I admit, simply because it is just not my thing. The sounds, used at least to be wav, might support other formats now. I have a beta table from JP that I do like. I can only run it on 10.7 because of wall physics. I can share it with you for this purpose alone. In the table, all samples set to backglass feels like they are played by the flippers. If you look at the beta thread, what confuses me is that there is one user who has reported one emulation to be ok, where I said it was bad. That is very confusing.

 

Being that there is a difference from me to him, might explain why you are not hearing the issue with F-14 ?? Maybe ... ?

All those titles I mention where the rom is broken, but, it isn't - it must be vpx related, I can almost not hear anything from the rom itself. You should know, even better than me, that we want table sounds to be played by the exiters, and rom to the backglass. For me, 10.7 is very boring, in that many of my favorite system11 machines - I would have to run back to the backlass to hear what is going on. It is there, yes, muddled down to very low volume in almost all cases where I say it is bad in the beta thread over at vpf.

I recommend that you try a few of those system11 that I mention. From @studlygoorite and a few others ( and that makes me happy to hear, in a way ), they see issues too.

So, to conclude, 10.7beta and sound is fucked up. Samples imported to table isn't played where they are supposed to and many, system11 at least don't play rom sounds like they should. Some do, and that is part of the weirdness.

Edited by Thalamus, 13 March 2021 - 09:00 PM.

[wiesshund]

On the ROM sounds

10.7 is only VPX, rom sounds are played separate by VpinMAME

and using it's own audio DLL also.

 

Not sure why you would get ROM audio issues in 10.7 since in that aspect, it should be identical to 10.6.1

 

I only have F-14 Tomcat 1.0 table using ROM f14_l1.zip

so i can not test the same thing as you are using, and maybe you have a different ROM also

 

VpinMAME plays out the front right and left channels
it does not care if i start it from the VPX table in 10.7 or 10.6.1 or VP9, or if i run it from setup.exe and do a ROM test

i have VPinMAME 3.3b SAM build, but the changes to that are only for colored ROM stuff.

It plays the same, every time, no matter what is running it.

 

I am kind of at a loss as to how the ROM audio would go out elsewhere

 

In the F14 table that i have, i only found 2 sounds that appeared to be something suitable for backglass play (all the rest were emchanical table sounds)

I put them on the backglass, like below, in 10.7 and that is where they played

 

Now i can drive it all around the table if i want to, since the backglass can make full use of ALL your speakers
so yes, i can indeed play it out the front of the table, IF i wished
or the center, or down one of the sides, etc.

for that matter, i can give it an 8 (or 6) channel surround OGG of what ever crazy surround effect one wanted to produce, and set it to rear (which lets the audio encoding take over)
and you could have a jet flying virtual circles around the table and dropping bombs.

 

but i would probably need to see the exact table you are seeing, because it is possible that it could be doing something wrong with specific audio files or on specific tables.

 

I also am pretty sure i do not have your audio setup
I have no 3rd party software at all, no ASIO stuff, no 3rd party bass management or channel manipulation stuff

and am running either 8 channel digital out via HDMI or 6 channel analog out (i only have 5.1 analog inputs) to just a normal basic surround receiver

 

in 8 channel ROM and backglass get to exclusively use the front left and rights and the table gets exclusive use of the side and rear left and rights

in 6 channel the ROM, backglass and table of course share use of the front left and rights, and the table sound gets exclusive use of what is now the side left and rights (the rears go dormant in 5.1)

 

And it does work right, if i just remove the receiver from the equation, and just start plugging 4 pairs of normal pc speakers into the 8 channels out of the motherboard
those speakers just sound kind of crappy, and im not found of the blob of cables and  power bricks all plugged in.

 

Can you point to a table that works totally terrible, that i would have access to?
and could you also give a full breakdown of your audio system?
channels used, how wired, hardware used, installed audio software etc.

 

It might be useful to see exact details of environments where it is not working at all
maybe it might be possible to add some more sound settings for sound to run differently in that kind of environment, maybe have a choice of picking old audio or new audio, or something?

Edited by wiesshund, 14 March 2021 - 04:15 AM.

[studlygoorite]

Interesting wiesshund, if I move the same sounds to the backglass in 10.7 they still play through the exciters, with 10.6 they switch just fine. I'll go through everything some more tomorrow to see if I can find anything solid. Note, I am using windows 10 20H2 and just have SSF no other toys and no Equalizer APO, connected directly to PC. If we need more people to try this let me know, I'm sure some of our fellow enthusiasts over at the Virtual Pinball Chat Discord wouldn't mind experimenting to assist with the development of 10.7

Edited by studlygoorite, 14 March 2021 - 04:04 AM.

[wiesshund]

Interesting wiesshund, if I move the same sounds to the backglass in 10.7 they still play through the exciters, with 10.6 they switch just fine. I'll go through everything some more tomorrow to see if I can find anything solid. Note, I am using windows 10 20H2 and just have SSF no other toys and no Equalizer APO, connected directly to PC. If we need more people to try this let me know, I'm sure some of our fellow enthusiasts over at the Virtual Pinball Chat Discord wouldn't mind experimenting to assist with the development of 10.7

re-read my post

i got the wrong damned screen shot in it, which will be less than helpful

i edited it to show the right screen shot

 

 

should probably clarify something here that may make a difference to some of you

on TABLE SOUNDS, VPX itself has no (or should not unless there are some kind oof pinmame manipulations you can do via vpx script?) bearing on what the ROM sound is doing

but on TABLE sounds

If you set it to backglass, 10.7 and 10.6 are very different

 

10.6 does not know how to play backglass sound as anything but 2D stereo, it can not even load a multi channel surround encoded sound, let alone play it.

It can not and will not play out of any place but the front speaker channels

 

10.7 the backglass can play where ever you tell it to play, based on your WINDOWS speaker set up, and what kind of sound you give it

So if you set a sound to play to backglass
and leave the sliders in the default position then VPX is going to try and re-manipulate the audio

The sound is going to come out at a position roughly in the center of the sound stage.

So it is going to be some in the backglass, a lot in rear of the table, and some out the front of the table, where the flippers are

 

If you want the sound to play based on how the sound is encoded
put the slider full rear (which equates to rear of table, not surround rear)

and it should come out where ever that kind of sound would come out per multi channel audio standards

so a mono or stereo sound would play out of the front channels cause it only contains 1 or 2 channels.

 

try shoving the fader full rear, and see where you get sound from then?

 

if you fed it a 3 channel OGG (with fade slider in rear position), it would be left center and right etc as the channel mapping for that stuff is 

[5.1]

0: left front

1: center

2: right front

3: left side

4: right side

5: LFE (sub)

 

[7.1]

0: left front

1: center

2: right front

3: left side

4: right side

5: rear left

6: rear right

7: LFE (sub)

 

in case you feel like doing some crazy backglass stuff

Edited by wiesshund, 14 March 2021 - 04:54 AM.

[Thalamus]

Can you point to a table that works totally terrible, that i would have access to?

- I did a few posts back, tables are free to download, it is not related to the table - they work perfectly in 10.6 - not in 10.7 as from that post. Each time.

 

and could you also give a full breakdown of your audio system?

- Why would that matter ?

 

I am kind of at a loss as to how the ROM audio would go out elsewhere

- Exactly my point. If you change 10.7 audio to use only left and right, the old standard audio option, then I do get regular stereo, played normal in the backbox. I'm talking about using 7.1 option which is obviously a 10.7 vpx thing being broken since day one of the beta.

Edited by Thalamus, 14 March 2021 - 04:57 AM.

[wiesshund]

 

Can you point to a table that works totally terrible, that i would have access to?

- I did a few posts back, tables are free to download, it is not related to the table - they work perfectly in 10.6 - not in 10.7 as from that post. Each time.

i see a beta of a table that i do not have access to

i have F14 the one everyone can download, you do not, it saus you have a private 10.7 beta from JP
It might be different entirely from what i have.

 

 

and could you also give a full breakdown of your audio system?

- Why would that matter ?

It would matter because the issues you are describing, especially the ROM audio that VPX has no control over as it is a thing directly with VPinMAME, i can not replicate

on any audio setup that adheres to normal multichannel standards.

And 10.7 works as intended on those in 2ch 3ch 4ch 5ch 5.1ch and 7.1ch

So it would be really helpful for somebody to be able to know exactly what you have, so that they could try and see why in your setup it does not work as intended

and what might be done so that it would, and yet continue to work in setups that are not yours.

 

 

I am kind of at a loss as to how the ROM audio would go out elsewhere

- Exactly my point. If you change 10.7 audio to use only left and right, the old standard audio option, then I do get regular stereo, played normal in the backbox. I'm talking about using 7.1 option which is obviously a 10.7 vpx thing being broken since day one of the beta.

 are you positive you are talking about ROM audio?

Because VPX does not play the ROM audio and has no control over it aside from being able to pass along the command in the table script
to not play audio for the ROM.

VPinMAME plays the ROM audio through it's own process, you can see it in process monitor by monitoring the audio API
pinmame and vpx are running entirely independently and making completely independent audio API calls

 

So if you have actual pinmame sound suddenly coming out of your flippers, you have something very abby normal going on

in which case it would be doubly good for someone besides you to know every aspect of your audio setup, from the hardware to the software.

 

Otherwise it's kinda like this

 

THALAMUS:
"10.7 audio is broken, doesnt work"

 

ME:

grabs sb xfi off shelf

grabs blank SSD

installs windows drivers and VPX
plugs 8 speakers into Xfi

runs vpx

runs 40 tables

comes back to thread
"Uh, it seems to work?"

 

Except, maybe it actually would not work, if i had put something together closer to what you actually have set up

but i have no idea exactly what that is and so can not put together the proper environment to replicate the issue to then start looking at the code to see what
happens with it in that environment (well them looking at the code, not me obviously)

Edited by wiesshund, 14 March 2021 - 06:03 AM.

[njk70]

I took a quick look at F-14 again and aside from noticing my left backbox speaker must have gotten disconnected it seems to be behaving as expected in 10.7. ROM in backbox, playfield on exciters. But I believe you Thalamus, in messing with Windows audio I have seen it do all kinds of bizaare things. I haven't tried moving sounds around yet and I am aware (at least in 10.6) of some issues with sound played via the controls in that dialog. 

 

I'm still tweaking the 10.7 SSF enhanced mode but I hope to finish it tomorrow. I am pretty happy with the results. I will dig more into the other sound issues then. But I expect there will be a lot of back and forth between us Thalamus to sort it out, I am pretty stubborn and you will likely want to give up before I do . 

[Thalamus]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7WKRGmsEG1Apbq8G8

 

4 videos, the two where you hear the rom is 10.6.2 and 10.7beta with 2-channel setup. I do pick up the sound a bit better than my phone, so, going to the back I'm able to faintly hear the rom even though the phone isn't picking it up very well. Fun how you hear my bare foot going over the vinyl :9

 

The last one is a JP original. All samples goes to  the exciters, nothing to the backglass speakers. I can select all sample, press the BG out toggle so every sample is reverse from table to backglass and opposite, save it, exit, and reload (has been a bug for a long time, if you change anything for the samples - might be fixed in 10.7 - obviously haven't tried it much) and there is NO change. Nothing goes to the backglass speakers.

 

It is a 3 amp system - all 2:1, I don't use the bass for the exciters. One is controlling the backbox speakers and sub, the exciters are rear and front by their own amp.

 

What I'm getting at is that 7.1 got broken going from 10.6 to 10.7 - at least for my cab it did.

 

Could any of you look at the list of tables I tried, see if any of the other ones I've marked bad is broken for you or not ?

 

https://www.vpforums...=68#entry470942

Edited by Thalamus, 14 March 2021 - 08:01 AM.

[toxie]

Thalamus, may you be able to just test the oldest 10.7 releases on vpinball if these already behave the same? Thanks!

[innertwist]

Just tried Grand Lizard and Road Kings leaving everything as is.

The latter works fine here, there´s no noticeable difference between 10.6 and 10.7. At least for me.

Grand Lizard on the other hand has problems: using 10.7 music is coming through the backbox speakers as expected, but those jungle / animal sounds play through the front exciters. Weird.

[wiesshund]

The first few videos, it is hard to tell what you are trying to show, not your fault, as you said, the damned phone records your feet on the floor
better than the table that it is pointed at, but being as i have that table and ROM, yes, i can definitely say, something is not right, because i should be hearing something resembling this
(forgive recording, the only thing i have that will record video with multi channel sound intact is fraps, everything else is going to record in stereo, though for this it may not have mattered?)

 

you kinda got like nothing there
I mean on F14 unless you drop the ROM audio a lot, the ROM should be running over the top of the table audio, it's a very noisy ROM

 

But the very last video, What table is that?
I want to compare THAT table, because you do not have jack squat coming out any place but the front of the table

 

Tables i have right this very second from your list
system11a
f-14 tomcat, f14_l1 (ROM out backglass, 2 scorpion wavs out backglass, table sounds only out table speakers oriented at the PlaySoundAt objects)
 

system 11b
black knight 2000, bk2k_l4 (ROM out backglass, no backglass wavs in table, table sounds only out table speakers oriented at the PlaySoundAt objects)

space station, spstn_l5 (ROM out of backglass, knocker wav out backglass, table sounds unfair test as i had redone a lot of the audio to play at specific locations, but it played only out the table speakers)

[wiesshund]

Just tried Grand Lizard and Road Kings leaving everything as is.

The latter works fine here, there´s no noticeable difference between 10.6 and 10.7. At least for me.

Grand Lizard on the other hand has problems: using 10.7 music is coming through the backbox speakers as expected, but those jungle / animal sounds play through the front exciters. Weird.

 

Grand Lizard, L4 ROM
ROM in backglass only
1st test, table backglass sounds no bueno
mechanical sounds for table parts like ball return, eject, diverter etc going partly to backglass speakers
jungle sounds coming mostly from center of table

Quit table, looked at sound manger

 

Took all mechanical sounds but the knocker and reel motor, set them back to table, cause aint no ball diverters or kickers etc inside the backbox

just did not make logical sense to me personally, table would work fine regardless

 

Rounded up all the Backglass type sound effects, swords jungle sounds, phrases like fight cheater etc.
Made sure all were set to backglass like so

 

Retested table
all ROM like sound effect wavs now going to backglass only, which in a way is kind of a shame as i got a giggle out of the monkey coming from sort of near the flippers

but not really where he belongs.

[BrandonLaw]

I know y'all are talking about sounds...but let's sidestep for a second.  Have a question.  Moved over to 10.7 on my Cab and Main rig (desktop.)  Main rig is intel 9700k Cab is AMD 3600x.  My main rig loads 10.7 editor AND tables in editor lightning fast...blazing.  My cab loads the tables via Frontend lighting fast...no problem.  The editor on the other is wildly sluggish to load or make enforce changes or even update Images or Sounds imported to the GUI.  The hell is happening on the cab?

 

Edit:  Noticed the actual progression bar (loading) of the program and table seem fine, it just pauses after that...'not responding' for 10 seconds or so like it's doing something with the images or sounds/resources.  Odd.

Edited by BrandonLaw, 14 March 2021 - 01:49 PM.

[Thalamus]

@toxie : I would love to - but vpinball only has complete 10.6 - no 10.7beta uploads that I know of

 

https://vpinball.com...px-beta-builds/

 

The oldest I have laying around on my cab seems to be 4351, and that one has this issue already. I wonder, maybe I would be able checkout and compile a specific version - is there at any point you would expect this could come from ?

 

I found it, and added it to the beta menu - I'll get back to you soon.

 

Guess I was right about the very first version having this changed behaviour. Just tested 4028 and that is the first I find over at VPinball.

 

And wiesshund, thanks for testing. Obviously your setup is different and it seems to work for you. That is all I can say really. I don't see how you can miss the fact that for 2 of the videos I showed you, you hear the rom starting up. The last one you can not hear it even going up to the speakers. There was no point in making long videos. The rom starts, you hear it start, that is all. The original table, it is just a original table. I bet if I picked up Serious Sam it would be exactly the same. There is something, and I don't understand what that can be, that changed in between 10.6 and first 10.7 that kills 7.1 audio mode for some roms, and samples that are included are all played on table, but if you press the test button, they are played in the speakers (backbox). The sad thing for me it seems, is that no one else either is testing this, or don't experience it.

 

I seem to have resolved it, but, I'm not sure what it was. Deleted registry for VP10, imported an old backup. Maybe one of the early betas did something weird ?? Now I have played 3 of the mentioned "bad" tables and they seems to work.

 

However. There is still this issue with using 7.1 mode and playing tables that use samples. So, the 4th problem video is in that regard still valid.

Edited by Thalamus, 14 March 2021 - 02:22 PM.