32 replies to this topic

[akiles50000]

I,m testing a lot of tables done with VP10 and I don,t like nothing the nudges of VP10 because if the ball goes to the center and I hit some times the nudge buttom doesn,t nothing the ball doesn,t move,only it moves the ball in VP10 using the nudges when the ball hits any object if not doesn,t nothing.

 

I prefer much better the nudges of VP9.93 because it,s more realist because it moves a bit the ball when it hits the nudge buttoms.

 

Fuzzel could compile the version VP10 where each one can to choose the nudges system to 9.93 or VP10 like it,s see in this picture:

 

 

It losts a lot of playability if the ball doesn,t move when it hits the nudge buttom.

Edited by akiles50000, 27 April 2017 - 01:45 PM.

[fuzzel]

I can't say if it's possible to support both behaviors. I never worked on the nudging handling in VP so can say much about it but maybe we can improve the overall behavior of the nudging.

[akiles50000]

Fuzzel It would be perfect  if can add both nudges to VP10 to choose ecah person to his tast, if not to improve the nudges of VP10 to try it moves a bit the ball when it press the nudge buttom like VP 9.93.

[Slydog43]

I think its an important topic at least as its very important to proper pinball play (at least I do nudge, some "lower" level players don't)

[toxie]

should be doable, but requires also some amount of archeology to search through all the changes that happened over time and then reconstruct the old behavior on top of the new physics code.

[Ben Logan]

VP9 nudging isn't something I'd personally choose to enable in VPX. Too drastic. VPX nudging seems realistic when ball is in contact with a wall or post, but could use just a little more strength imo when ball is rolling down center of playfield (for slapsaves, e.g.).

[Shockman]

should be doable, but requires also some amount of archeology to search through all the changes that happened over time and then reconstruct the old behavior on top of the new physics code.

 

No it wouldn't. It's not ancient history. What happened was a platform change, from keyboard input to cabinet nudging. I don't know how good cabinet nudging is, but it better be damn good, because it cost what was relatively good nudging that the earliest VP builds had.

 

VP1, or at least 3 would be a good place to look. I have said for years that it is going to take two routines, and still believe it would be the easiest and only logical way. Without that effort, the nice effort to have a table model work both in FS and DT is an epic fail.

[Shockman]

VP9 nudging isn't something I'd personally choose to enable in VPX. Too drastic. VPX nudging seems realistic when ball is in contact with a wall or post, but could use just a little more strength imo when ball is rolling down center of playfield (for slapsaves, e.g.).

There is no VP9 nudging routine. those devs was assholes when it came to that. VP9 kept with UC physics for nudging and refused to even acknowledge that it was anything but perfect for DT use which they had no interest in, lets face it. VP9 went through zero thought or development of the nudging physics. The worry was that to put back the keyboard routine, they would have to rewrite the cabinet routine, which a sane person would be all about imo.. 

 

I agree. the collision routines are there. If VPX nudging is injecting into that, it is wrong. Nudging is a matter of the table sliding, but in effect works digitally as well thinking of it as ball movement, especially in VP where the table does not ever move (in terms of DT). The entire world can be made to move, but not just the table. A cabinet routine may be well now, but a desktop/keyboard routing NEEDS put back. That is a simple matter of moving the ball and moving it back, if no collision results. Like VP< (yes less than) 9, not counting the UC version, which ushered in the end of good nudging by way of keyboard input in VP.

 

Not that what we had then was perfect, as there was only one power setting per use without script changes. Then my only suggestion was to read the time the nudge key was pressed, (up to a max of about 1/4 second, which should provide for about 15 power settings), But it worked. A nudge would result is movement based on the power setting, and it would move back, simulation the table moving back. It actually worked great, and was interrupted by a collision before the recoil. 

 

If done as I suggested the only tricky part would be to start the table (ball) motion immediately, but add on the fly velocity, as to eliminate the 1/4 second delay a max power nudge would otherwise have.

 

Nudging was not replaced by flippers, except for the most casual players. It is a control method as important as any flipper trick.  

Edited by Shockman, 02 May 2017 - 10:59 PM.

[toxie]

 

should be doable, but requires also some amount of archeology to search through all the changes that happened over time and then reconstruct the old behavior on top of the new physics code.

 

No it wouldn't. It's not ancient history. What happened was a platform change, from keyboard input to cabinet nudging. I don't know how good cabinet nudging is, but it better be damn good, because it cost what was relatively good nudging that the earliest VP builds had.

 

VP1, or at least 3 would be a good place to look. I have said for years that it is going to take two routines, and still believe it would be the easiest and only logical way. Without that effort, the nice effort to have a table model work both in FS and DT is an epic fail.

 

 

We do neither have the source for VP'1' or '3', only 8.1 and 9.0.7 at earliest.

Apart from that, it's not that trivial, as said, even if you say it's just a 'platform change'.

If you think you're up for it, please have a look yourself at the source and point us to what we should change exactly, please.

[xenonph]

This may help...there is a working download link to an old site saved on the Wayback machine. The site was called "PinballSim.com" and was one of the first sites I found when i first found out about the Visual Pinball Program. (The download links for the table packs still work!!)

Here is the page..http://web.archive.o...om:80/index.php

 

This site had it setup where the tables you downloaded had all the folders structured to include everything, and all you had to do was extract to your C: drive.

Anyways there is a Pinball Pack on that page that includes Visual Pinball version TECH BETA 6.1

 

Direct Link to Pinball Pack on that page..http://web.archive.o...pinballpack.zip

 

Its not version 1 or 3, but maybe the oldest available? It's from 2004.

 

Hope this helps. If not, good for historic reference maybe?

 

Edit:

I thought it was version Tech Beta 6 but it is 6.1 the same version available here at VPForums..

http://www.vpforums....ds&showfile=970

Edited by xenonph, 03 May 2017 - 08:05 AM.

[toxie]

The executables themselves are not the problem, but the sourcecode. That one was never released except for the mentioned 8.1 and 9.0.7 and everything following these.

[StevOz]

If you want to play pinball with the fantasy nudge effects of VP 9.9, then just use VP9.9. VPX nudge physics are actually vastly more real, a ball in motion on a near frictionless play field, without contact with any other object will not/can not deviate by any significant amount, this is basic real world physics. The spin/direction may ever so slightly be effected as the table moves under the ball then returns to its original position though this is a very slight change and not usually observable on a real pinball machine, unless you TILT.

 

Start here...

 

Edited by StevOz, 03 May 2017 - 08:58 AM.

[akiles50000]

StevOz the problem is that in the case where the ball goes through the center towards the flipper,100% of the cases the ball it losts and it should be to have any option using the nudge buttons to save the ball if not it loses much playability in each table.

The nudge buttoms should respond in that case too,only I,m asking that it moves something the ball in that case when I press any nudge buttom.

[StevOz]

StevOz the problem is that in the case where the ball goes through the center towards the flipper,100% of the cases the ball it losts and it should be to have any option using the nudge buttons to save the ball if not it loses much playability in each table.

The nudge buttoms should respond in that case too,only I,m asking that it moves something the ball in that case when I press any nudge buttom.

 

With a well timed simultaneous nudge/flip either side, a well timed slap save can work, not always and the timing of such is hairline fine, there is no 100%. The ball does not move any considerable amount compared to the amount the table moves under the ball, ball mass * velocity vs the negligible frictional change via a nudge of the table, a ball in motion will not deviate it's vector unless effected by a greater force.

Edited by StevOz, 03 May 2017 - 10:19 AM.

[Thalamus]

I agree with both Ben and Steve on this. I asked mjr in the beta thread if we please could add a "hold off" time to the nudge. What I've seen is that after a nudge in one direction - the table goes back to normal position in what I would best describe a unnatural way. You see it quite easily when you run a table with almost no gravity. There is no doubt that you can change the movement of the ball on a real table if it isn't touching anything. I was then told to turn off the nudge filter since this is the code that "moves the table back to it's original position". I feel what we need is something in between these two solutions. Lets say I nudge to the right and it has a value of 9 - the nudge-filter is on so it returns, but the value read from the nudge is multiplied with with a value we can adjust so ... 9 * 0.8 ... or whatever, or maybe with a hold-off timer, where the nudge unit isn't read for some set number of milliseconds ( adjustable )

 

I have no experience from vp code, so, I don't know if this would make any sense or is doable.

 

For the desktop users. I don't understand how it would be possible to make a nudge that is anything near accurate. It is only a key press that tells VP that it needs to move - and there is nothing telling what direction the nudge is coming from. Well, maybe ... right or left, but well, is that accurate ? What desktop users should do if they want a accurate nudge is to buy some kind of unit that reads the amount and attach it to their keyboard or whatever they use as input device.

[StevOz]

Nudge is adjustable in VPX, even for DT users in the editor just goto Options > Physics > Nudge Time > greater values will add a greater Nudge effect, I usually set this at 5.

Edited by StevOz, 03 May 2017 - 11:41 AM.

[toxie]

I can actually understand that a more unnatural alternative nudge would be helpful for Desktop users. 

I miss that myself sometimes (and happily remember the old days where one could easily move the ball back out of he outlanes without tilting on some tables )

So maybe i'll look into this at some point, and have that as an alternative if possible.

[Shockman]

Good grief Toxie. You are sounding like me there. 

 

That's what you call old days? You could not do that until the UC change that VP9 went with, and that was

- backwards for DT users.

- had no visiual feedback for desktop users

- had no physic simulation of recoil for desktop users (which is why you could nudge a ball out of the shooter lane. Nothing anyone beat the drum for, or could call realistic.

 

VPX, like 'Oz said is better than VP9. The problem is that it only works to any usable degree for bumping the ball off an object and only at the point of contact. 

 

Physmod 5 had it right. You could nudge the table to the ball if the ball was close, but even if it was enough away that it would not have hit the ball without the nudge. So the center drains could be saved with luck (close enough to the flipper) and skill (timing). As I recall, the first VPX builds had this intact, and was dumped because of an issue with cabinet hardware, so you might have to go no further back than VPX to find this working. If I am wrong about that, then only as far back as Physmod.

 

This is not a matter of something to change Toxie. and certainly nothing to point you to. In my opinion it is a matter of support. Unlike cabinet devs (Ultracade and VP9), I would never suggest, or be happy if cabinet nudging was sacrificed to restore DT use. It is proven over years that you can not set it up for one without breaking it for another. However the only reason we can not have both is if the current devs refuse to provide for both. I don't buy into the ignorance. I don't believe you don't understand how to fix this for both platforms.

 

Instead of me pointing you to a working model that you already know as well as I that is in every VP besides UC, 9, and X, or my changing it back and totally destroying any support of cabinet hardware support, If you want help or advice, you have always had it from me. Make a routine for each. Then if one gets dialed in it can be left alone. If one need tweaking, it can be dialed in without effecting the other method.

Edited by Shockman, 03 May 2017 - 02:51 PM.

[Shockman]

If you want to play pinball with the fantasy nudge effects of VP 9.9, then just use VP9.9. VPX nudge physics are actually vastly more real, a ball in motion on a near frictionless play field, without contact with any other object will not/can not deviate by any significant amount, this is basic real world physics. The spin/direction may ever so slightly be effected as the table moves under the ball then returns to its original position though this is a very slight change and not usually observable on a real pinball machine, unless you TILT.

 

...

I find it observable on a real table every time, but I suppose you could nudge soft enough where you can't.

 

I can't agree with that. On a frictionless table the ball will pretty much stay put regardless of how far the table is abruptly jolted, Even normal friction would be overcome by the abrupt jolt,

 

I think anyone that has played a lot of real and video pinball and utilizes nudging knows this, and has no problem when someone mentions ball movement, but understands the real movement and the relative speak.

Edited by Shockman, 03 May 2017 - 02:31 PM.

[Shockman]

Nudge is adjustable in VPX, even for DT users in the editor just goto Options > Physics > Nudge Time > greater values will add a greater Nudge effect, I usually set this at 5.

That use to be the case (physmod) and my setting is also 5 because of that legacy. Now it would take a value of 555 to get that motion, but if you set it to that and nudge again and again before the recoil you can actually nudge the table and backglass all the way off the screen.