21 replies to this topic

[klonoa]

Hey guys!

My cab is almost finished, contactors and other force feedback toys are working well.
Now i closed all doors, putted the playfield glas on, and have a problem the Siemens contactors now: they sound very weak now. Less noise
I did the washer midification before. Helped, but still not loud enough.
I replaced the washer wit h a steel plate. Before, i took away the lower plastic rips, so the steel plate lays down smooth. No dumper-effect. This helped a little bit, but still too silent
I drilled 100000 holes in the contactor housings, to evacuate the noise. Disnt help.
I opened the contactor. Found 2 plastic shoms on the movin rod, took them away. Little bit more metallic click, i think. But still less loud. I took away the plastic hook on top of the rod, so it hasnt to move the (unuses) contacts. Didnt help. I dismantled the contactor, so only the coil and the plunger and the lower part were left. SoundEd mich louder. Mounted in the cab - Bäaah, terrible noise. A deeptone pogg pogg... Sh... Now i drilled a hole in the plunger end, did a thread in, mounted a bolt in. Drilled the lower housing, so the bolt hits directly the cab wall. Caused more force feedback, but terrible deep sound again "knock knock.."
Seems, the usual Siemens contactors are not matching for me. Are the louder options for this? I read many threads, but didnt find real good alternatives. An allen bradley c series maybe, but almost impossible to find in Europe?
Does anybod use good LOUD and fast alternatives to the Siemens?

Would be thankful for every hint!
Thanks a lot!
HP

Edited by klonoa, 03 December 2014 - 07:56 PM.

[Slydog43]

I'm in the same boat.  I bought another brand (Bradley I think) that were quite a bit louder, but suffered from a problem where the loudest click that was genereated came when letting go of the flipper button.  That is when I push the flipper button in it would make a little click sound and a louder one when I let go.  This was the exact opposite that I wanted.  Would love to hear from more people about this.

[PinDogg]

Not sure if you guys care or not, but I used solenoids off tractor starters.  They were like 9 bucks a piece and have a very loud click when they snap. You can definitely here them!  They sound awesome.  No washers or other gimmicks, just a good old plan whack.  I found them on ebay which had 10 of them for like 85 bucks. plus shipping.  It's your regular shorty type remote starter solenoid.

[klonoa]

Ah, good to hear regarding allen bradly, because I wanted to give them a try. But not anymore, if they switch in that way, like slydog said. And it is quite expensive, because I found new ones at regular dealers, or at ebay U.S., which is a lot of shipping costs.
@Pindogg:
Is it possible to connect those solenoids directly to the LedWiz? Or do I need some extra Optos, or wahtever?
The Siemens contacter consume less than 300mA, which is ok for the LedWiz.

Tractor starters? Are they similar to the car starters?
Maybe you can add an ebay link, or another link, that shows an example?

Than you,
HP

Edited by klonoa, 03 December 2014 - 10:22 PM.

[parabolic]

Why wouldn't a good old school ford starter solenoid work? 

[AaronShupp]

THIS. Everybody got so obsessed with those ridiculously priced Siemens contactors when like, any $10 solenoid has potential. There's shit tons of options out there, allowing you to produce a variety of sounds.

 

It's to the point where it'd almost be cheaper to put ACTUAL flipper and bumper assys in the cabinet than those 3RT series contactors

 

Just my 10 cents (who carries pennies anymore).

[arngrim]

i tested 12v and 24v siemens, 24v are much better, powerful and i can use PWM with booster boards for target and drop target

[Jafjas]

Sorry to hear about the sound.

I had the same problem with mine, and they are 24v. I got them cheap on eBay from a guy in Poland, I live in Europe.
the thing is, there are a lot of different types of Siemens contactors in the 12v and 24v range.
Recently I bought 5 new ones from France and they had a defferent model number but were also 24v when I opened them the coil assembly was kind of different, much robuster. On the outside they are the same. But the sound they make is so much louder and sounds perfect.
The only thing is they draw more amps and the burned my fuses protecting my ledwiz. So I hooked up 5v relay from sainsmart and now everything works perfect.
I'll check the model numbers when I have the chance.
By the way, I bought the loud ones for just 7 euro's a pop. About 10 dollars I think.

Jasper

[maestro300]

I use the $5 12V solenoids and are almost too loud when mounted.   Trying to find ways to make them quieter (especially pop bumpers)   I've actually added more solenoids since this video (10 solenoids @ 12V and 1 replay knocker (original) 24V running on a 19.5V laptop power supply.   So running 11 solenoids at this point.  One flipper sounds different than the other--  one is mounted closer to the edge of the board.   I have remade this and is mounted even to the other one (sounds the same now)    

 

I've also working on modding the pop bumper solenoids to make them quieter (too loud in this video)

 

Edited by maestro300, 04 December 2014 - 03:14 PM.

[AaronShupp]

^^ Excellent example, maestro300. I have a few tables built utilizing a mix of contactors (originally), then then venturing into different types of starter solenoids and non-3RT contactors. Now I'm focusing on exactly what you're doing — just using standard push-type solenoids in custom assemblies. You have infinite possibilities then as to what it's striking/moving/etc.

 

In my one cab I've got a bank of these weird pull-type solenoids I got off All Electronics a while back, they were ripped out of god knows what and sold off cheap. The solenoid is in a plastic housing with a hooked arm coming out. When active the metal hook arm swings down against a stopper, making an awesome plastic/metal clicking noise not unlike drop targets.

 

Let me see if I can find a vid or at least a photo quick.

 

------------

 

Edit:

Here we go. I think they're actually used for pop bumpers on that machine — http://tinypic.com/r/2cp5pcl/8

Edited by AaronShupp, 04 December 2014 - 06:19 PM.

[PinDogg]

Ah, good to hear regarding allen bradly, because I wanted to give them a try. But not anymore, if they switch in that way, like slydog said. And it is quite expensive, because I found new ones at regular dealers, or at ebay U.S., which is a lot of shipping costs.
@Pindogg:
Is it possible to connect those solenoids directly to the LedWiz? Or do I need some extra Optos, or wahtever?
The Siemens contacter consume less than 300mA, which is ok for the LedWiz.

Tractor starters? Are they similar to the car starters?
Maybe you can add an ebay link, or another link, that shows an example?

Than you,
HP

http://www.zebsboard...olenoids-wiring  

 

  This is the wiring diagram from Zeb on how to wire them.  It's also pretty much what they look like.  Tractor solonoid, Fold solonoid, same thing bascially. I have all my hots on a 12V+ (hot) bus-bar. I have my ledwiz attached to a SMT Booster board from Zeb ( http://www.zebsboard...ut-kit-2-detail ) and have the ground coming straight from each booster board output to each solonoid.  Works great.  Just remember to include the 1N4007 as pictured. When looking at car starter solonoids you just have to get the ones that are remote. (not on the actual starter).  That's all you need.     P.s.  If you wanted to quite them down a little you could put little rubber bushings between them and the mounting walls so when they snap they don't resonate through the wood sides.  That being said I run mine directly mounted.  I love the sound and the feel through your fingers on the buttons.   If I wasn't clear here feel free to ask anything that I might be able to be less muddy on. lol

 

Ah, good to hear regarding allen bradly, because I wanted to give them a try. But not anymore, if they switch in that way, like slydog said. And it is quite expensive, because I found new ones at regular dealers, or at ebay U.S., which is a lot of shipping costs.
@Pindogg:
Is it possible to connect those solenoids directly to the LedWiz? Or do I need some extra Optos, or wahtever?
The Siemens contacter consume less than 300mA, which is ok for the LedWiz.

Tractor starters? Are they similar to the car starters?
Maybe you can add an ebay link, or another link, that shows an example?

Than you,
HP

http://www.zebsboard...olenoids-wiring

 

  This is the wiring diagram from Zeb on how to wire them.  It's also pretty much what they look like.  Tractor solonoid, Fold solonoid, same thing bascially. I have all my hots on a 12V+ (hot) bus-bar. I have my ledwiz attached to a SMT Booster board from Zeb ( http://www.zebsboard...ut-kit-2-detail ) and have the ground coming straight from each booster board output to each solonoid.  Works great.  Just remember to include the 1N4007 as pictured. When looking at car starter solonoids you just have to get the ones that are remote. (not on the actual starter).  That's all you need.     P.s.  If you wanted to quite them down a little you could put little rubber bushings between them and the mounting walls so when they snap they don't resonate through the wood sides.  That being said I run mine directly mounted.  I love the sound and the feel through your fingers on the buttons.   If I wasn't clear here feel free to ask anything that I might be able to be less muddy on. lol

 

http://www.ebay.com/...cab2932&vxp=mtr    $6.89 each

[klonoa]

Hi Pindogg,
Thanks for the infos.
So you use solonoids like in the ebay link?
Ok, i have seen, the seller ships to my country also. I will try those.
I also think, I will order zebs booster board. Bad, that i bought a16 outputs board from him, for my led flashers.
Now i bought his new plunger kit. And now i order a second 16 outputs board. 3 times shipping costs. And shipping to Europe is quite expensive, grrr...
But i think, the booster board will be the best way. As I fried a LedWiz ago, by using these simple chinese solenoids.
Directly connected to the LedWiz. Dont know, if I was drunken...

[gtxjoe]

You could buy rgb led amplifiers for your flashers and then use the booster board for your solenoids

Edited by gtxjoe, 04 December 2014 - 09:36 PM.

[PinDogg]

Hi Pindogg,
Thanks for the infos.
So you use solonoids like in the ebay link?
Ok, i have seen, the seller ships to my country also. I will try those.
I also think, I will order zebs booster board. Bad, that i bought a16 outputs board from him, for my led flashers.
Now i bought his new plunger kit. And now i order a second 16 outputs board. 3 times shipping costs. And shipping to Europe is quite expensive, grrr...
But i think, the booster board will be the best way. As I fried a LedWiz ago, by using these simple chinese solenoids.
Directly connected to the LedWiz. Dont know, if I was drunken...

Zeb is a great guy to deal with and his products are top notch!  I cant speak for the plunger as I use the virtuapin plunger kit from Noah and that works just fine for me.  I would imagine you can get the ford solonoids somewhere local to you, its probably one of the most common solonoids in the world I would imagine.  Just lookup a ford remote solonoid, or actually probably any model with a remote solonoid.  The guys local here use them on racecars all the time too.  Just go to any auto parts store and ask them how much a basic remote starter solonoid costs and show them the picture.  I would think 15 bucks at max.  You could also do what GTX recommends that works too.  I use the 32 output ledwiz and SMTbooster.  1-10 goes to my contactors, 11 to strobe, 12 shaker, 13 wiper, 14 fan, 15 beacon, 16 open for future, 17-31 RGB's and 32 to Knocker.  I would look through all zebs stuff as he has some stuff that really saves some time!   I also use his resistor board for the RGB, if you don't use that make sure you are using something or bad things will happen with the leds!  I also use his ATX Breakout Board and love it!  Anyways, Enjoy!

Yes i use the ones just like I linked.  When I get home I will snap a picture and upload it here for ya to see.

[zebulon]

Thanks for the kind words...

 

As has been stated here, standard Ford starter solenoids are probably the cheapest bet.  If you need a specific car model to reference from, the solenoid for a '97-2002 Ford F150 pickup truck uses the correct ones.

 

Personally, I still prefer to use contactors for the flippers as they are quite often held in when trapping the ball and contactors are designed for that kind of sustained draw where a solenoid really isn't.

 

Always remember to use diodes for any load that as a coil.

[klonoa]

RGB Led amplifiers?
Like this?

I laready bought the ford solenoids from your link, pindogg.
Will be a christmas gift. For me

Yes, you're right, usefull stuff in Zebs shop. Too late for me, as cab is almost finished. Should i ever start a new cab, i will definetely go with zebs stuff, for an allinone clean build.
Next time...

HP

[Les73gTx]

Thanks for the kind words...
 
As has been stated here, standard Ford starter solenoids are probably the cheapest bet.  If you need a specific car model to reference from, the solenoid for a '97-2002 Ford F150 pickup truck uses the correct ones.
 
Personally, I still prefer to use contactors for the flippers as they are quite often held in when trapping the ball and contactors are designed for that kind of sustained draw where a solenoid really isn't.
 
Always remember to use diodes for any load that as a coil.

.
.
I agree with you Zeb on the year to use and in fact you can get a different sound by using a Ford Pre-60's 6v solenoid for your drop targets and your slings ...I run them from my secondary PC power supply 5v line. I went as far as to completely enclosed my two sling solenoids with only a small 1 inch hole on each side of the box for ventilation. Sound is very convincing to everyone that plays my Pincab.
I also need to note that I have had these configured in my cab for almost a year now and I use a cheap $25 Sainsmart type 8 port relay to switch them with no delays at all.
I will have to say that from my 25+ years experience in the automotive repair field I can honestly say with much experience that you can and will hold a starter solenoid in the start position for MUCH longer than you would ever trap a ball for .... and since you don't have 12v going to a starter for 30 to 60 seconds at a time, these solenoids never even get warm.
I hope this helps people out there realize that there are many different ways to get the same effects or job done and the most expensive way is not always the best solution.

[maestro300]

I remade my mounting for my solenoids + added 2 more.   I also am using the original 24V knocker and got that working in DOF now as well.    11 solenoids total now.   After this video was shot-- I put the playfield monitor/glass in and cannot believe how much better it sounds!     

 

I am absolutely convinced that mounting solenoids/contactors in the center positions (not to the side of the cabinet) makes virtual pinball much more realistic.   By mounting across a vinyl/PVC board you get not only the plasticky sounds but also the conduction through the wood cabinet.   I'll get a video of just gameplay soon so you can hear the difference.  

 

Replay knocker was a HUGE plus to have in my configuration.   The cost was free since I had the solenoid already-- just found an old power supply to use on it.   Wired that to one of my 16 port Sainsmart relays => LEDWiz.    Unfortunately the videos cannot capture how loud it really is.

 

Anyways-- decided this configuration is the best for me so going to straighten/mount those cross boards.   Can't wait for those bike bells to come in and I can finally say the solenoid/feedback part is done.   Next will be the LEDs.

 

Edited by maestro300, 05 December 2014 - 07:30 PM.

[klonoa]

Not possible to start video

[maestro300]

Sorry should work now