30 replies to this topic

[njgsx96]

Hey guys.  I have been doing some research in anticipation of starting my own build and just when I think I have it all figured out, I read more!  So I was originally planning to build your basic pinball, standard cabinet build.  Buttons, 3 screens, coin door..  looks the part.  I never really thought of any force feedback.  I saw the sidewinder mod, mercury switches and the virtuapin plunger with motion detection and they all sound awesome but I was never one for tilting a game.  Also, I figured I would eventually get the plunger, it is just not in the budget at the moment, so that piece could wait.  Then I saw a post on contactors.  "What is that?", I asked myself.  Once I read it was the feedback you would feel when you used the flippers or the balls bounced on a bumper...  oh man, I HAVE to have that.  I couldn't image playing a pinball game with just button clicks.  So I start to do more research.  Boy, kind of pricey (Siemens ones I checked out) and I was on a budget already.  However, this might be worth it.

 

So main question...  I was originally going to power the button lights off od my main PC power, only 5 LED buttons, so not too bad a draw for a 600W PS.  However, I have a spare PC PS, 250W.  Would that be enough to power the button LEDs and 8-10 contactors?  I am assuming I could tap into the 12V rail if I got 12V contactors and use the 5V for the lights.  Might be a better idea to have them on a separate PS anyway.  But would that be enough juice?  Is this feasible?  Has anyone done this before or would I be better off buying a 24V PS and using 24V contactors?

 

2nd question... Shaker motor and knocker.  What is the shaker motor for?  I don't know any pinball games that shake.  or is it supplemental to the contactors.  And the knocker I see people put behind the backglass.  What is that for?  I don't think I wan them (now at least) but I would like a better understanding.

 

Thank you!

[gamefixer]

I've been looking at contactors too and it seems best "bang" comes from the 24vdc variety. 

 

The knocker is for when you get a replay, it bangs on the side of the cab and makes that really loud "snap."

 

Many games have shaker events (newer ones anyway) which usually happen when you do something like make a ramp shot or start multiball. A good example is when you start multiball on Jurassic Park. The game shakes like mad!!!

 

I would think that powering feedback devices from another power supply is a good idea, its what I'm doing now with the LED's (which I HIGHLY recommend installing!!!).

 

Good luck with the build. Its a ton of fun but a lot of work.

[Slydog43]

I forget the actual power needed,, but I would get a Zebs booster board for the build, its makes it so easy, neat, and clean.  You will want a shaker and gear motor &  flashers also.(hopefully you will see my machine in the future).

[mjr]

First off, you *absolutely* want to put in as much force feedback as you can afford.  It makes a truly qualitative difference in the playing experience.  I didn't realize how much of a difference it would make until I had it set up.  (RGB flashers are another surprisingly big enhancement.)

 

Regarding contactors and power, the 250W secondary PSU should be plenty.  And yes, it is reportedly a good idea to put the feedback devices on a separate power supply from the main PC.  Inductive loads can supposedly cause brownouts on the PC PSU.  It might not be an issue if the main PSU is beefy enough, but given how cheap the low-end power supplies are, it seems prudent to use a separate supply.

 

I have a 300W PSU powering everything except the contactors, and a small 24V 48W supply for the contactors.  I have the full 10-contactor setup and I've never seen any signs of brownouts on the contactors, so based on that experience, your 250W will be more than enough if you go with 12V components.  

 

Shaker motors are just what they sound like - they make the cabinet shake/vibrate.  The effect is tactile; it's a bit like a really powerful subwoofer making the room shake in an action movie, but even more sub-sonic.  It's been used occasionally in real pinballs for a long time.  I think the first was (appropriately enough) Earthshaker, which runs its shaker during earthquake events in the game.  Lots of the late-model Stern games use them.  For the games that have real shakers, the LedWiz will turn on the shaker just like in the real game, when the ROMs command it.  In addition, the default LedWiz configs for lots of tables have shaker action even when the real games didn't, so if you put one in your cabinet, it'll get plenty of use.  I personally think it's a really cool and indispensable effect - it makes the action seem more visceral and intense when the machine comes alive like that.

 

Knockers have been used in real pinballs for all of eternity to signify replay/special awards.  All it does is make a loud bang when its plunger whacks the inside of the cabinet.  Virtually every virtual table out there will activate it at the appropriate moment if you have one.  It might seem kind of gratuitous to put another $30 part in a virtual pinball cabinet for something that just makes a little noise once in a while, but to me it's another must-have.  The simulated knock sound through the speakers is such a pale imitation.

 

I don't mean to oversell this stuff, but as I've gotten my cab together, I've been kind of amazed at how the feedback equipment elevates the experience from flat 2D video game to something else entirely.  It's still not quite the real thing, of course, but it really makes a difference.

[maestro300]

I went the cheap route with a $35 Sainsmart 8 port relay + 12v solenoids.   Grand total somewhere around $100 for everything.    I run four lit buttons and all 8 solenoids + relay board off a 550w power supply ($20 variety)   Seems to run perfectly.   Here's a video of it in action.

 

Edited by maestro300, 05 August 2014 - 03:22 AM.

[njgsx96]

Such an expensive hobby and you guys are not helping! 

 

I was trying to keep this build under $1000 and I am going to try to stick with that as this has been an expensive summer between vacations, racing and general summer fun. 

 

I think what I will need to do is roll out force feedback in stages.  I don't think I am going to do flashing LEDs like I see on some builds.  They really seem to drive me mad when I see them and every time I watch a video with them, I vow never to install them on my cabinet.  With that being said, I may leave room for them, just in case I check out a local cabinet in person and find out I need them!  Slydog... I am looking at you!

 

On hold:

The shaker motor and plunger/motion sensor will have to wait as they are pretty expensive parts.  Maybe I can ask for them for my birthday and Christmas!  My wife last year bought me 2 aimtrak light guns for my birthday so I may have to ask for one of these this year!

 

Adding now:

the knocker I think I can add, although I wish I knew that last week when I placed all my orders.  It looks like new from one of the pinball sites is the best option.  The contactors will be added now as well.  I will have to do some research and see what is available/affordable.  Quick searches look like it may be cheaper to get a 24v PS and some 24v contactors.  I will keep looking though, see what I can come up with.

 

Has anyone used a PC power supply for these or does everyone buy aftermarket  power supplies?  Like I said, just curious if it will supply enough power if I was to do everything. 

[njgsx96]

After some searching, it seems to be next to impossible to find 12v contactors.  it is looking to be more affordable (and easier) to grab a 24vdc power supply and some 24vdc contactors. 

 

I cannot post any links (not sure why - low post count?) but I found a Supernight ™ 24A 15A 360W DC regulated switching power supply.  Should be good, right?

 

I see everyone loves the Seimens and/or Allen Bradley contactors but there was a post on some $5 24vdc 4pst-no p&b 25a contactors on mpja.com.  Has anyone used these yet?

[maestro300]

I was on the fence between contactors and the 12v solenoids - the price of the contactors is what kept me away.   Unsure on how that would work being a 4 pole-- maybe somebody else can fill us in.   Prices are pretty good there though.    The 12v solenoids I purchased cost $7.50 each shipped.   

 

My only issue is the solenoids are too loud - and I thought I was going to have the opposite problem!    So looking for ways to mute them a bit now since they are a bit distracting in a game now.

[njgsx96]

Maestro, I was checking out your posts and video this morning and now I am leaning a little more towards your solution (will work with my PC PS as well!) but instead of having them hit a metal piece, maybe use wood for the impact.  Did you ever try that?  might soften the sound a little.  Also, maybe place them around the cabinet instead of in banks of 2 or 3 like you have them now. 

 

Decisions...  at least I get to talk these out with you guys!  Thanks!

[maestro300]

I placed the three together since the pop bumpers are usually in a three cluster anyways.   As soon as I get home- going to put a board across the width and just rotate the board so they span across the middle.   There is another post that has my photos of the wood block that it is mounted on (used a router to make the back side hollow) which amplified the sound.   Doesn't really need it though as they are loud.

 

The solenoids were ordered from China but arrived in the U.S. in just (3) days!!   It was the USPS part that took awhile.   However it just took 6 days from order to arriving at my house.   You can start with the Sainsmart and wiring during that wait time.

 

Suggested parts - of course you can build however you like:

 

-8 port Sainsmart USB controller-- like $30 from Amazon

http://www.amazon.co...l sainsmart usb

 

-8 solenoids from whatever source (I used eBay) and was $63 shipped I think.

http://www.ebay.com/...984.m1497.l2649

 

-8 diodes to go across the + / - on the solenoids (seen on the video) or you'll get randomly fired solenoids.   Radio shack has a 25pk for $3.49 and I used the 1N4001 diodes from       it.   They are good for 50v and 1A which is perfect.

http://www.radioshac...oductId=2062589

 

-2 terminal blocks

http://www.radioshac...oductId=2103229

 

-2 terminal block jumpers

http://www.radioshac...oductId=2103227

 

-2 packages of 20 gauge wire (you can probably find cheaper in bulk)  I only used Black for grounds and Red for power.   

http://www.radioshac...oductId=2049743

Edited by maestro300, 05 August 2014 - 03:48 PM.

[patrickfx]

Good post. I Follow. Lot of answers to questions for beginner or people like me who have life too �

[njgsx96]

Maestro, why did you go with the USB 8-port and not the 16-port that is non-USB?  That way you could have more for the bumpers and maybe even 1 for a knocker.  Just curious.  Thanks!

[maestro300]

Cost really-- otherwise I would need Zeb's booster and/or LEDWiz to control it.    The USB 8 port only cost $30 and is all-in-one.    I'll have to see if DOF will support more than one Sainsmart device (or in the future)   I'm happy with 8 solenoids though.

[njgsx96]

Can you simply connect these to LED Wiz without the Sainsmart device?  I thought looking in pinball 101 they suggested something between the solenoid and the LED-Wiz (at leat for the contactor that is).

[goesta]

Is the Sainsmart supported by DOF 2.0? Would be a cheap + solution, if i run out of ports for all the toys ;-)

Edited by goesta, 07 August 2014 - 02:34 AM.

[maestro300]

Can you simply connect these to LED Wiz without the Sainsmart device?  I thought looking in pinball 101 they suggested something between the solenoid and the LED-Wiz (at leat for the contactor that is).

 

If you already have an LEDWiz ($45) then you would either need a relay board (8 channel $15; 16 channel $36) or a Zeb booster board for $120.    

 

The reason you need a relay board/booster board is the LEDWiz can only handle 500ma.   My 12v solenoids draw 630ma I believe-- so again I went the cheap route right now.   I bought just the 8 port USB Sainsmart for $31 and 8 solenoids for $63 shipped.  

 

I will eventually get an LEDWiz for LED's (you can run both Sainsmart and LEDWiz by the way) 

 

My total price for the solenoids + relays was $94    I'm guessing the contactor route + LEDWiz/Booster would run somewhere around $350-$400 figuring the contactors are about $20 each, relay board between $15-$30, Zeb's booster $120, LEDWiz $45 and a 24v transformer around $20-$30

 

I cannot compare how the contactor sounds with the solenoids.   I couldn't imagine anything louder though as I'm trying to find ways to quiet them at the moment... removed metal brackets already but still too loud.

Edited by maestro300, 07 August 2014 - 02:41 AM.

[njgsx96]

Gotcha, thank you!  I already have the LED-Wiz so it looks like I am going to go with just the relay board.  So much to take in but another piece of the puzzle taken care of.  Now I just need to convert my ATX CPU PS to be used as the force feedback PS.

 

Thank you!

[mattfl]

So, if you had to do it again, which would you recommend?

 

I haven't bought the LEDWiz/booster board yet and if I can get away with the LEDWiz and the Sainsmart that would save me quite a bit of money.

[mjr]

So, if you had to do it again, which would you recommend?

 

I haven't bought the LEDWiz/booster board yet and if I can get away with the LEDWiz and the Sainsmart that would save me quite a bit of money.

 

I have the booster, and I'm really happy with that.  It is more expensive, but it's the no-compromises solution (boosts all 32 channels, passes through PWM to control brightness/speed, no relay clicks, no delays).  Depending on what you're controlling, though, those benefits might not be important enough to justify the cost.  But for me it was the right solution - its functionality is unbeatable, and it appeals to my engineering perfectionism .  And Zeb is just a great person to do business with - his support is above and beyond.

[njgsx96]

I will let you know how I feel about my choice as opposed to getting a board from Zeb when I am done! 

 

Honestly, looking at what Zeb offers, his work and solutions look absolutely top notch and he is always there to support his stuff, as evident from these forums.  However, I have a little bit of an experimental side though and like the challenge of building and getting it to work.  And with such a wonderful resource as this forum and the internets in general, I am up to the challenge for sure.  If I get to save a couple bucks in the process, even better.  I am sure when I am done I will look back and say that getting the booster board or his ultimate board would have made life SO much easier, but I will have a pretty good sense of accomplishment and know I wasn't just able to do it, but I learned something as well...  hopefully!