90 replies to this topic

[maestro300]

I'm about 80% done on my 46/29/19 cabinet and want to now add the flipper/bumper clunks and have some questions.

 

Zany posted a YouTube video of a 12v solenoid.   

 

What is the disadvantage of using this over a contactor?   Is it that you would need a double contact leaf flipper switch (1 for solenoid and 1 for ipac) or is the issue with interfacing PinMAME a bit more difficult?

 

What I'm trying to do is have the solenoid flippers only work when the game is active (ie.. not click when the game is over)   With that I assume I either need LEDWiz or ipac interface to control the solenoid and not the actual flipper button.

 

I tried searching forums but they are so full of scattered information (I know I'm yet adding to it again) but each situation is different depending on what the builder wants in the end.   

 

So here are my questions in a nutshell (and sorry this is long)

 

1.  Will as 12v Solenoid as shown in the video sound like a real high voltage solenoid in comparison to a contactor?

2.  What advantage does a contactor give you?   Is it that you can connect the ipac directly to it?

3.  How does the LEDWiz work with a 12v solenoid and would this control the solenoid through pinMAME?   Noticeable delay?

 

Thanks!   I just didn't see many pin cabinet users utilizing solenoids and wondered why... especially concerning the cost is less $8 vs $60 for each.

[gamefixer]

something like that would work great for those momentary solenoid events (pop bumpers, sling shots, even ball releases into the shooter lane) but not so good for flippers. 

 

The reason being that the momentary action will only hold the coil "on" for a period of milliseconds whereas the flipper buttons will hold the solenoids "on" for as long as the button is held. While this would be OK for a short amount of time those coils can heat up pretty fast plus that kind of load directly on an LEDWiz will probably blow it up. I'd do this solenoid method for the momentary events and a contactor for the flippers.

 

Any chance you have a link to that Zany thread? 

[maestro300]

I would be using an external power supply for the solenoid (unsure on how to wire it yet) but should allow me to hold the solenoid open longer without blowing the LEDWiz.   Sorry kind of a newbie on this part of the build and trying to learn as much up front as I can.   Last thing I want to do is blow $200 on something that just will not work.  Appreciate your input!  Here is a link to Zany's thread.

 

http://www.vpforums....352&hl=solenoid

[mjr]

I would be using an external power supply for the solenoid (unsure on how to wire it yet) but should allow me to hold the solenoid open longer without blowing the LEDWiz. 

 

Note that merely using an external power supply won't save the LEDWiz.  If you connect the solenoid with its power supply directly to the LEDWiz, the LEDWiz still has to sink the current that's running through the solenoid - the current is really the issue.  So you'll need to electrically isolate the LEDWiz from the solenoid somehow.  There are several good options: you can use a relay, Zeb's booster board, or a MOSFET/optoisolator combo (which is what Zeb's board uses).

 

The other issue that gamefixer mentioned is the danger of blowing the solenoid itself.  That's separate from the load on the LEDWiz.  Most regular solenoids are designed for momentary action - if you leave them energized continuously for more than a few moments, they'll overheat and melt the wire in the coil.  Exactly how long varies by solenoid; if you can find a data sheet for the device you're using, it might tell you how long you can safely energize the coil continuously.  For flipper buttons, you want something that can handle being on indefinitely, because the player might hold the button down for a long interval.  Contactors fit this bill, which is why they're popular around here.  (That and the way they sound - the popular Siemens devices seem to do a particularly good impersonation of a pinball coil.)

 

If your particular solenoids aren't happy with continuous activation, you could always pick up just a couple of the contactors to use for the flippers, and use the solenoids for the other feedback points.  The flippers should be the only ones that need really long "on" intervals.  (Although there are a couple of threads from people who blew knocker coils when the software glitched and left them energized - not intentionally but due to software bugs.  As a software guy, I'm personally wary of connecting any hardware devices whose lives depend on software correctness; I know too much about software development to trust it that far. )

[maestro300]

I really appreciate the information-- very helpful!   So my last question then-- how do I need to set up the flipper contactors so they only work while the game is running?  I'm trying to get away from them always energizing when the last ball drains and the flippers go dormant.   

[blashyrk]

Damn i was planning on using solenoids for my flipper buttons, but now i see that it won't work. But i will be using them for the slings and bumpers, if fuse all the solenoid connections to the ledwiz (500mA) will they blow before the solenoid coil?if the sowtware bugs out and they saty energized ?  planning on using 12A led amplifiers for the solenoids..

[mjr]

I really appreciate the information-- very helpful!   So my last question then-- how do I need to set up the flipper contactors so they only work while the game is running?  I'm trying to get away from them always energizing when the last ball drains and the flippers go dormant.   

 

You just need to wire them to the LEDWiz, the same as the rest of the feedback solenoids.  VP and the LEDWiz will work together to fire the flipper feedback when the on-screen flippers flip.

 

I started a thread asking similar questions a while back, because I had read that a lot of people choose to wire them directly to the flipper buttons to avoid latency from the LEDWiz, but I'm on the same page with you that I *don't* want the flipper feedback effect when the flippers aren't visually moving on-screen.  The consensus was that the direct wiring is no longer necessary because Direct Output Framework (DOF) eliminate the latency issues and makes LEDWiz wiring as fast as direct wiring.  I haven't actually gotten this far in my build myself, so I can't confirm, but there seems to be a good consensus on this.

[mjr]

Damn i was planning on using solenoids for my flipper buttons, but now i see that it won't work. But i will be using them for the slings and bumpers, if fuse all the solenoid connections to the ledwiz (500mA) will they blow before the solenoid coil?if the sowtware bugs out and they saty energized ?  planning on using 12A led amplifiers for the solenoids..

 

Well, you *might* still be able to use your solenoids if the particular ones you chose can handle continuous activation - it's just that this doesn't seem common.

 

Protecting the solenoids with fuses is tricky at best.  The complication is that most solenoids are designed to handle a certain amperage *briefly*, but can't handle that same current continuously.  You can't just pick a fuse that blows at or below the nominal solenoid current rating, because then you'd blow the fuse every time the solenoid fired.  But if you use a larger fuse, it'll happily allow the nominal solenoid current forever, so if the solenoid gets stuck on, the fuse will never blow and the solenoid will eventually melt instead.  If there's a solution with fuses, it's the slow-blow type. They're  designed for exactly this kind of situation where you want to allow a brief surge of current, but not continuous current.  What makes this tricky is that you can't shop for the right fuse with a single parameter; you have to shop for something that matches the function of current vs time that you need.  The data sheets for the slow-blow fuses have graphs of exactly this function.  E.g., http://www.mouser.co..._315P-60249.pdf has the graph for the Littlefuse 313 family on page 3.

 

I'm planning to protect my knocker coil (I'm using a real pinball knocker assembly for that - the only actual solenoid in my build) with a slow-blow fuse as a last line of defense, but I don't have enough experience with this approach at this point that I fully trust it.  So my first line of defense is a little hardware timer circuit that only allows brief pulses to reach the knocker in the first place, no matter what the LEDWiz and software think they're doing.  It's a simple little 555 circuit that's about $5 in parts - I'd be happy to post the schematic if you want to use it, but it would be a pain to replicate across a dozen feedback devices.

planning on using 12A led amplifiers for the solenoids..

 

I'm interested in hearing if this works reliably for you.  I don't know what components they put in those LED amplifiers - presumably a MOSFET, but I've never seen a spec.  The thing is that some MOSFETs can handle inductive loads and some can't, so I've assumed that the ones they use in the LED amps are cheaper ones that can't.  If it works reliably, though, it'd be good to know - it'd be a cheap and simple way of isolating a 12V device.  I suppose this isn't relevant either way with 24V contactors (the kind I'm using) or 30V knocker coils, but it'd still be a useful data point.

[Les73gTx]

There is another option that is used and used well for flippers but for some reason most people don't mention them ... automotive car starter solenoid ... they are designed to handle 6v, 12v and even 18v continuous for 5+ minutes at a time (been there cranking a motor over trying to prime the oil and also trying to get a old junkyard motor running) ... the good thing about our cabs is the fact that they run off the same 12v as cars. I have used 12v solenoids for the flippers and have used 6v solenoids (from a really old car application) for the bumpers and slings. I am using a secondary 500 watt PC supply to power all my toys in the cab. I went with a cheap eBay relay board that works great for everything.
I will link my dropbox for my build pictures ... I have not made the time to do a build post to the forums yet. I completed my build in a workable state on thanksgiving of 2013 and have been playing it EVERYDAY since. I have added things and redone the wiring and kept the software up to date with all the new releases. It is a ton of fun and I am ready to start on my second build for my brother very soon.

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https://www.dropbox....rmwDgay8o5kiOta

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[randr]

Like the bell. What tables do you use it on?


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[dboyrecords]

I just posted a pic on my build page showing my solenoid dual switch setup. Works GREAT but I probably will add dof this summer but keep current jic and for tables without dof. Having those the last few months has me jonesing for full dof.

[Les73gTx]

Like the bell. What tables do you use it on?


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 I have put the bell on the same output as the knocker ... I have made the LEDWiz config tool fire the bell/knocker 3 times for a match game along with running the fan at full for 2 seconds and run the beacons for 2.5 seconds ... so on that LofR table it fires the knocker everytime you insert a coin. ... I like the effect for making you think you have won something.

 I have 2 new Videos uploading now .. might take a little bit .... tried to get my wife to play but she was dressed for bedtime so you get to see me play ... just a warning ... then another shorter video showing a closeup of the colors for the DMD and of the table 

I think it would be cool to have a LEDWiz config tool for a bell toy  ... I think there could be some cool effects .... that bell happened to be on-sale from the local big box store for $7 ... I should have bought the 4 they had left but I wanted to try it first ... went back 3 days later and they were all gone...

[randr]

Nice videos and machine. Though wife in pj's would have made a better video.
I'm going to add a chime unit(3 chimes) very neat


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[Les73gTx]

Nice videos and machine. Though wife in pj's would have made a better video.
I'm going to add a chime unit(3 chimes) very neat


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I really want to do something like that also but the available room in the cab is in short supply at this point .... but the next one for my brother will have a few different things going on that I have come across since building mine. Thanks for the compliments. 

[blashyrk]

I'm interested in hearing if this works reliably for you.  I don't know what components they put in those LED amplifiers - presumably a MOSFET, but I've never seen a spec.  The thing is that some MOSFETs can handle inductive loads and some can't, so I've assumed that the ones they use in the LED amps are cheaper ones that can't.  If it works reliably, though, it'd be good to know - it'd be a cheap and simple way of isolating a 12V device.  I suppose this isn't relevant either way with 24V contactors (the kind I'm using) or 30V knocker coils, but it'd still be a useful data point.

I did some testing with the Led amp and i did about 350 cycles with the 12v solenoid and it worked great. So i will use the solenoids for slingshots and bumpers but not for the flippers, i ordered some 24v siemens contactors. Thank you for your answer

[maestro300]

Thanks for the videos!   So you're using contactors but no solenoids for pop bumpers and slingshots right?   Thinking I might just pull the trigger and get them and see how they work.

[gtxjoe]

Hmm it would be nice to know if these can be used reliably - is the input side isolated from the output side.  Some of these amps on ebay are indicating operation of 5-24 volts (http://www.ebay.com/...t-/121233152618)

 

There is a pic of the 12V RGB amp PCB here:  http://www.hyperspin...ll=1#post283049

[blashyrk]

Thanks for the videos!   So you're using contactors but no solenoids for pop bumpers and slingshots right?   Thinking I might just pull the trigger and get them and see how they work.

I haven't finished my cab yet, so im just testing this outside of the cab with a 12v power supply. I'll be using these 12v solenoids for pop bumpers and slingshots, but for the flippers i'll be using contactors.

[rasm]

 

Thanks for the videos!   So you're using contactors but no solenoids for pop bumpers and slingshots right?   Thinking I might just pull the trigger and get them and see how they work.

I haven't finished my cab yet, so im just testing this outside of the cab with a 12v power supply. I'll be using these 12v solenoids for pop bumpers and slingshots, but for the flippers i'll be using contactors.

 

 

I really like the idea of using 12V solenoids for slingshots and some bumbers. Could anybody gimme a suggestion if an optocoupler board like the following one would be suitable to trigger them?

http://www.ebay.de/i...o-/390724399241

[Les73gTx]

Thanks for the videos!   So you're using contactors but no solenoids for pop bumpers and slingshots right?   Thinking I might just pull the trigger and get them and see how they work.

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I have only car solenoids in my cab ... no contractors for me .. the expense was not worth it when you can get the effect from something that is easily available.
I have a mixture of 12v for the flippers ... and 6v solenoids for the slings and bumpers. By using different mounting locations and surfaces and voltages I have got the effects I want at very reasonable prices

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