32 replies to this topic

[rob046]

File Name: Black Rose (VP912) (Desktop Mod & Conversion)
File Submitter: rob046
File Submitted: 15 Sep 2012
File Category: VP/VPinMAME 9.x - MOD Tables
Author(s): Lord Hiryu
rob046 (Mod & Conversion)
Manufacturer: Bally
Year: 1992
ROM: Link to ROM
Media Pack: Link to Media Pack
Permission to MOD?: Unspecified

Black Rose, Mod & FS to desktop conversion of LH's table.

Select 'Backdrop_WS' for widescreen's, and...
16:10 set x-scale to .908
16:9 set x-scale to .818

First off, I decided to keep all the high resolution textures from the FS table, hence the large file size. I play at 1600x1200 or 1920x1200, on a decent size monitor, & so I can usually benefit from high res textures. Also my PC can handle it. However, if anybody is having issues loading up & playing this table due to possibly too many large textures, please let me know.
I've made some slight visual modifications, made backdrops for desktop, added rails, added rules (press R) & gave it my physics adjustments. Also I optimized it a bit for performance, added alpha plunger, & various other bug & glitch fixes. Added a few optional ball images.

I'm pretty happy with how it is playing, though I likely could tweak it a bit more but first would like to hear what other people think, & there are a few other things I may want to add in future updates. JF's flipper tap code added as well, I only modify it slightly.
Probably forgetting some details but just know that aside from the conversion I did spend a good bit of time modding as well. Thanks to LH for letting me play around with this, this is one of my favorite tables.

Click here to download this file

Edited by rob046, 15 October 2012 - 02:21 AM.

[TuNk77]

Thanks for the MOD, for me, it plays just fine, just some minor stutter on the ball, but I guess that's my CPU's fault

[rob046]

Thanks for the MOD, for me, it plays just fine, just some minor stutter on the ball, but I guess that's my CPU's fault

Actually this is something I wanted to mention. The table has 8 step GI, which can drain performance & IMHO isn't exactly worth the performance hit. I don't even really notice this level of fading on the real table. It does look cool & nice, but I wonder if there is a somewhat easy way that I could maybe cut out half of the steps. The code & calls in this part of the script is all done in spanish so its harder for me to make sense of what is going on. & dealing with fading lights & alpha lamps isn't exactly my strong suit to begin with. So if somebody can maybe look at this & let me know if there is a way to cut down on the GI and/or maybe get some of the koadic find implemented as well with some of the alpha improvements.
I would apprecaite that. Because so much is going on on this table that even though I get decent FPS I still get a tiny bit of stutter as well with so many things firing off.

[TuNk77]

Thanks for the MOD, for me, it plays just fine, just some minor stutter on the ball, but I guess that's my CPU's fault

Actually this is something I wanted to mention. The table has 8 step GI, which can drain performance & IMHO isn't exactly worth the performance hit. I don't even really notice this level of fading on the real table. It does look cool & nice, but I wonder if there is a somewhat easy way that I could maybe cut out half of the steps. The code & calls in this part of the script is all done in spanish so its harder for me to make sense of what is going on. & dealing with fading lights & alpha lamps isn't exactly my strong suit to begin with. So if somebody can maybe look at this & let me know if there is a way to cut down on the GI and/or maybe get some of the koadic find implemented as well with some of the alpha improvements.
I would apprecaite that. Because so much is going on on this table that even though I get decent FPS I still get a tiny bit of stutter as well with so many things firing off.

I think JPSalas might be able to help you with the script, as he knows Spanish (AFAIK). Just send him an PM

But, the table will probably preform better on my other computer, that has better hardware, 2600K CPU, 8GB RAM and an GTX 570 GPU.

[jimmyfingers]

Thanks for the MOD, for me, it plays just fine, just some minor stutter on the ball, but I guess that's my CPU's fault

Actually this is something I wanted to mention. The table has 8 step GI, which can drain performance & IMHO isn't exactly worth the performance hit. I don't even really notice this level of fading on the real table. It does look cool & nice, but I wonder if there is a somewhat easy way that I could maybe cut out half of the steps. The code & calls in this part of the script is all done in spanish so its harder for me to make sense of what is going on. & dealing with fading lights & alpha lamps isn't exactly my strong suit to begin with. So if somebody can maybe look at this & let me know if there is a way to cut down on the GI and/or maybe get some of the koadic find implemented as well with some of the alpha improvements.
I would apprecaite that. Because so much is going on on this table that even though I get decent FPS I still get a tiny bit of stutter as well with so many things firing off.

8 Step GI on it's own is actually not very hard on the CPU at all if all it's doing is changing light based objects - if it's used in conjunction with alphas that's a different storry. JP reports this as well in his initial White Water release and basically says if you have stutter it's from the alphas / routines not the 8 level of GI itself (for light objects). I noticed essentially zero difference also when I created the SS GI8 MOD and wanted to make an option for 4 level as well - I removed it because it just didn't do anything. However, since using and experimenting with antialiasing, I have noticed that if I am using AA settings at a moderate to even low settings, I can now see decent stutter in heavy dynamic light sequences on GI8 tables - that's the only time I've ever noticed GI8 and using light objects having any noticable effect.

In all my development on my GI8 tables, it's only really been the alphas / flashers I've been adding that had ever ate into the FPS and created any stutter. I have a GI8 that's ready for release that runs super fast and actually is running faster than it's non GI8 counter part with the alpha routine enhancements utilized.

Edited by jimmyfingers, 16 September 2012 - 03:04 AM.

[jpsalas]

Here it is the fixed script for the alpha ramps fading sub. In this table LH only used on/off alpha ramps, but the lights under were refreshing the whole time (that was a bug I introduced in my fading sub). Now it uses the alpha=0 or alpha=1 and the light only turns on when it needs to refresh the ramp, so if you have problems with the speed then this script will help a little.

To change the script just copy/paste the whole text.

[attachment=11890:Black_Rose_VP912_Mod_Desktop_v1.0.txt]

Edited by jpsalas, 16 September 2012 - 03:49 AM.

[TuNk77]

Thanks for the script JPSalas, no more stuttering on the ball for me, not even in multiball (on the old computer)

[htamas]

Could the FS script also be modified so it improves the performance to avoid stutter?

[rehab]

Thanks Rob for the mod and JP for the fix!!

[bil]

Thank you to both for the great work

[rob046]

Could the FS script also be modified so it improves the performance to avoid stutter?

Probably not as it is, remember this is a mod as well, not just a simple conversion. I changed/added some other stuff, such as JF's flipper tap routine, that will cause problems. There might be other things too, not sure. Maybe I can just release this as a FS mod.

Here it is the fixed script for the alpha ramps fading sub. In this table LH only used on/off alpha ramps, but the lights under were refreshing the whole time (that was a bug I introduced in my fading sub). Now it uses the alpha=0 or alpha=1 and the light only turns on when it needs to refresh the ramp, so if you have problems with the speed then this script will help a little.

To change the script just copy/paste the whole text.

[attachment=11890:Black_Rose_VP912_Mod_Desktop_v1.0.txt]

Thanks a bunch JP! My FPS aren't much better though. Yet maybe the ball movement is a little smoother for me anyways, which is strange since with VP9 FPS has always been a good indicator of performance. As long as its helping others I'm glad to add it to an upcoming update. Just 1 note though, some of the flasher effects are gone now. For example, the flasher effects that appear over top the upper flipper are now gone when I paste in this script fix. & the other ones like it are also gone.

[kiwi]

Thank you very much Rob, good Mod.
The ball falls under the left ramp.
There is a bad junction between the ramps 1247 and 1582.
And , the logo of the right flipper is reversed, just reverse the names of the walls.

Max

[ruby651]

Without a doubt, the best desktop version of this table ever! Great work. One small problem... if the ball doesn't make it up the top left-hand ramp, it tends to head down the right-side drain. Other than that, a great mod!

[jpsalas]

Thanks a bunch JP! My FPS aren't much better though. Yet maybe the ball movement is a little smoother for me anyways, which is strange since with VP9 FPS has always been a good indicator of performance. As long as its helping others I'm glad to add it to an upcoming update. Just 1 note though, some of the flasher effects are gone now. For example, the flasher effects that appear over top the upper flipper are now gone when I paste in this script fix. & the other ones like it are also gone.

I see that now. When I make those alpha ramps as flashers, I always make all the ramps the same size. But LH made the ON state with a width of 0. So by using the new script will make the effects disappear I should have checked the table better. So a better solution instead of changing the whole script will be to simply change the sub which turn that lights/ramps on off. So find these lines after line 1044

Sub NFadeAR(nr, a, b, r, wt, wb) ' a is the ramp on, b if the ramp off
Select Case LampState(nr)
Case 4:a.WidthBottom = 0:a.WidthTop = 0:b.WidthBottom = wb:b.WidthTop = wt:LampState(nr) = 0 'off
Case 5:a.WidthBottom = wb:a.WidthTop = wt:b.WidthBottom = 0:b.WidthTop = 0:LampState(nr) = 1 'on
End Select

r.State = ABS(r.state -1)
End Sub


And change it with

Sub NFadeAR(nr, a, b, r, wt, wb) ' a is the ramp on, b if the ramp off
Select Case LampState(nr)
Case 4:a.WidthBottom = 0:a.WidthTop = 0:b.WidthBottom = wb:b.WidthTop = wt:r.State = ABS(r.state -1):LampState(nr) = 0 'off
Case 5:a.WidthBottom = wb:a.WidthTop = wt:b.WidthBottom = 0:b.WidthTop = 0:r.State = ABS(r.state -1):LampState(nr) = 1 'on
End Select
End Sub

This will make the refresh lights to stop refreshing continuously and they will only refresh when its needed,

Edited by jpsalas, 16 September 2012 - 08:46 AM.

[thewool]

Hello Rob. Nice desktop conversion, plays really well, the physics feel nice and mobile

One conisderation for the plunge/skillshot, you might want to take a look at the FS thread for info... On the real machine a full plunge send the ball up the left ramp, round the back of the table to the top flipper. Koadic posted a couple of ramp vpts, and plunger strength also needs tweaking to improve this aspect of the table, works very well.

Thread here: http://www.vpforums....opic=19256&st=0

Thanks again for uploading and to JP for the optimisation. Good work

[bolt]

Thank you for the desktop mod, great table.
Thank you JP for the script fix.

[thewool]

Another quick observation Rob. You need to disable the playsound event for the top flipper. Both the right and top right flipper sounds play at the same time, but they are slightly out of phase which causes a weird flipper sound, not clean.

Having some great fun playing this on the laptop. Cheers

.

[rob046]

Thank you very much Rob, good Mod.
The ball falls under the left ramp.
There is a bad junction between the ramps 1247 and 1582.
And , the logo of the right flipper is reversed, just reverse the names of the walls.

Max

I can't reproduce this myself & never had it happen, but maybe it has to do with lower alpha settings you might be using, & so I did go ahead & patch up the area anyways so that this shouldn't happen again. Though I do find it strange how issues like this can happen for one person but never for another. Like on my PC I'm not sure that I've EVER had a ball drop through a ramp like you say. Odd, but at least there are ways to prevent it.

Without a doubt, the best desktop version of this table ever! Great work. One small problem... if the ball doesn't make it up the top left-hand ramp, it tends to head down the right-side drain. Other than that, a great mod!

Again here, this is a problem I can't reproduce. This simply doesn't happen for me. However, even if it did happen I probably wouldn't fix it. I mean, whether or not it goes to the drain would depend on how far up the ramp the ball went & at what speed it is falling down. That is just pinball. Sometimes you get crappy drains when you don't hit a ramp shot cleanly. Even on a full plunge from the plunger I'm not losing the ball down the drain. If this really is more than a randomness issue for you where it sometimes happens, maybe give me some more detail on it since I can't seem to make it happen. Otherwise, I guess it just is what it is because I'd rather not tweak other aspects of the table just to avoid an occasional drain from that ramp. Let me know if I'm maybe not understanding properly. & thanks for the comments!

I see that now. When I make those alpha ramps as flashers, I always make all the ramps the same size. But LH made the ON state with a width of 0. So by using the new script will make the effects disappear I should have checked the table better. So a better solution instead of changing the whole script will be to simply change the sub which turn that lights/ramps on off. So find these lines after line 1044
...
This will make the refresh lights to stop refreshing continuously and they will only refresh when its needed,

This is interesting. So, now, just adding this tiny bit of code to the original script everything does seem to be working like normal again. Also, things do still seem a bit smoother like the previous code you attached. My FPS are actually even lower than the original table, yet things still seem smoother like I mentioned before. Strange, but I'll take it! I guess we are missing the alpha=0 stuff, but if it breaks the flashers & isn't really needed, then so be it. I get pretty decent FPS regardless when compared to other tables from this era. I'm about to update the table with this, & hopefully even for slow to average PC's it plays pretty well for people.
Thanks again for your help with this. Yes I think this is a great table, but there was some things that needed bug fixed and optimized & this really helps.

Hello Rob. Nice desktop conversion, plays really well, the physics feel nice and mobile

One conisderation for the plunge/skillshot, you might want to take a look at the FS thread for info... On the real machine a full plunge send the ball up the left ramp, round the back of the table to the top flipper. Koadic posted a couple of ramp vpts, and plunger strength also needs tweaking to improve this aspect of the table, works very well.

Thread here: http://www.vpforums....opic=19256&st=0

Thanks again for uploading and to JP for the optimisation. Good work

This is probably true in most cases, though plunger strengths in general can vary a bit between tables. Can be a design thing, but probably more often just a case of some tables using tired old springs vs brand new ones. I just installed a new spring on my HH that makes a huge difference. But anyhow the problem with this in VP is that when you make the plunger this strong in VP, it can really mess with that skill shot. & I prefer to sacrifice strength if it means a better skill shot since that is what you are going for most or all of the time anyways. So its just a VP issue there & I didn't feel it was worth spending time on since I'm always going for the skill shot & it felt pretty good.

But since you noticed this, I figured I'd have a look at it. First of all I wonder why people aren't using the IM plunger system anymore along with the alpha ramp system. I assume I might get better results with that, in this case. Has anyone combined PD's IM plunger code with this alpha ramp plunger? I assume it must be possible, or maybe I just haven't noticed it being done. But I thought I'd try something different here that I don't think anybody else has ever tried. Yet I'm getting results similar to the IM plunger, yet still using VP's default plunger. I've increased the stroke length quite a bit. If the plunger was visible this would look silly & much of it appears off the table. but since it isn't visible, I don't see any issue with doing this. & the increased stroke really seems to allow more variance & sensitivity with the plunger strength. So far I'm not seeing any cons to doing this, & if anybody has any negative side effects from it just let me know & I'll look into maybe the IM plunger. Curious to see if this is going to work for everybody though.

Another quick observation Rob. You need to disable the playsound event for the top flipper. Both the right and top right flipper sounds play at the same time, but they are slightly out of phase which causes a weird flipper sound, not clean.

Having some great fun playing this on the laptop. Cheers

I don't have this problem. Sounds good to me. & I purposely doubled up on the flipper sounds on the right side simply because there are 2 flippers, & so I wanted it to sound like there are 2 flippers as well. But yeah I don't know what you mean about them being out of phase or not sounding clean. Seems OK to me & I think sounds about right, I just checked them. None of the mech sounds are mine, so maybe I have some that I think might be better, but for the most part I thought they were decent enough. Now that I'm thinking of it, maybe I'll play a couple games when I get a chance & see if any improvements should be made there.

[rob046]

UPDATED TO v1.1
v1.1 - Improved plunger physics & skill shot. Fixed nudge problem. Fixed small see through glitch on flippers. Fixed possible ball falling through ramp, ball jumping near Davey Jones Locker, & a couple other small tweaks & fixes. Lastly, added a tweak thanks to JP that should optimize light system performance.

Is there any way that people get alerted when a file is updated? Like on the old site we had that "latest updated" section. Obviously it can be pretty important that people have the latest versions of things, or at least get notified of them. Especially here since I can't update the title thread or anything to reflect version number or date.

Edited by rob046, 18 September 2012 - 03:06 AM.

[ruby651]

Without a doubt, the best desktop version of this table ever! Great work. One small problem... if the ball doesn't make it up the top left-hand ramp, it tends to head down the right-side drain. Other than that, a great mod!

Again here, this is a problem I can't reproduce. This simply doesn't happen for me. However, even if it did happen I probably wouldn't fix it. I mean, whether or not it goes to the drain would depend on how far up the ramp the ball went & at what speed it is falling down. That is just pinball. Sometimes you get crappy drains when you don't hit a ramp shot cleanly. Even on a full plunge from the plunger I'm not losing the ball down the drain. If this really is more than a randomness issue for you where it sometimes happens, maybe give me some more detail on it since I can't seem to make it happen. Otherwise, I guess it just is what it is because I'd rather not tweak other aspects of the table just to avoid an occasional drain from that ramp. Let me know if I'm maybe not understanding properly. & thanks for the comments!

Hmmm... interesting. It's something that happens to me every time the ball makes it partway up the "load cannon" ramp... and since the ramps are a little steep on this game, that means it happens a lot Not sure why you're not getting the same results. Anyway, it's a small issue over what's really a fantastic table and, if you're not getting the same result, it's gonna be kinda hard to fix it! maybe the update will fix the issue for me.

Edited by ruby651, 18 September 2012 - 04:25 AM.