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Table creators with focus on lower/medium end machines


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#1 pedrojorge

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Posted 24 April 2024 - 04:18 PM

Hi,

 

I recently started playing around with VPX and installed a bunch of tables to try out.

I believe i have a medium specs machine... not great but also not too bad.

 

I am a huge fan of jpsalas because not only do his tables look great, but they also play great on my machine specs (usually i get between 300 to 400fps) which delivers a very fluid experience.

I ended up installing all his tables :)

 

I recently installed some tables from VPW team.They also look fantastic but unfortunately are apparently a lot more hardware demanding and i am unable to get much more that 100fps which is rather choppy.

 

Do you guys know of any other table creator with focus on fluidity as jpsalas?

 

Thanks guys

 



#2 remdwaas1986

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Posted 24 April 2024 - 04:26 PM

Hi, you can try my tables. Curious if they work on low end pc's.

gallery_139054_567_13031.pnggallery_139054_567_2859.png


#3 bigus1

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Posted 24 April 2024 - 04:59 PM

Give my stuff a whirl :)    https://www.vpforums...oads&mid=107629



#4 xenonph

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Posted 24 April 2024 - 06:28 PM

If you resized all of the huge pics in a VPW table to something lower than 4k, you might get rid of the choppiness.

Just open the Image Manager in table, and export the huge pics, (Be sure to checkmark Use name on export,) resize them with pic editor like GIMP or Photoshop, and import them back into the table.

This usually works on any tables that use HUGE resolution pics.

 

JP's tables are pretty much the gold standard on how to have small file size, without losing quality.

Many times, his table size is smaller than the Backglass file size! AMAZING!


CHECK OUT THIS TUTORIAL http://www.vpforums....howtopic=32515
TO USE DB2S BACKGLASS PROGRAM WITH DESKTOP TABLES ON 1 MONITOR

 


#5 unclewilly

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Posted 24 April 2024 - 06:40 PM

My tables aren't very big either.
You try changing the max texture size in video options and turn off some of the bells and whistles just for the vpw tables. You can do table specific options in video settings now

"it will all be ok in the end, if it's not ok, it's not the end"
 
Monster Bash VP10 WIP https://dl.dropboxus... (vpx)WIP15.vpx

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#6 oroborus

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Posted 24 April 2024 - 06:54 PM

Are you running Vpx version in x86 or 64bits ?

i also have a med-low end computer and since i'm on 64 setup every table runs fine ( almost constant fps on vpw's tables, pup pack included).



#7 strells

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Posted 24 April 2024 - 07:44 PM

Sorry, I have to LOL when I see posts about people who "only" get 300 or 400 fps and it's bad when it drops to 100.  I'm stuck at 60 with my ALP unless I gut it!



#8 anthias

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Posted 24 April 2024 - 11:57 PM

Where is the point going faster fps than the human eye can perceive? It's not worth stressing over getting 100 instead of 200 if your brain can't process 90!

It is generally accepted we see around 60. That's why for decades tv was that. It wasn't an accident, it was by design. It's why 180fps appears smoother than 200fps. But you don't even SEE 120 of those 180frames. So if you are happy at 60fps pinball, just relax and enjoy it!

Edited by anthias, 25 April 2024 - 12:04 AM.

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#9 EpeCreaciones

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Posted 25 April 2024 - 12:34 AM

(Esp / Eng)
 
Hola.
 
Cuando hago una mesa (en realidad he hecho solo una, aunque haya dos versiones, bueno tres versiones de la misma si contamos la última v26), me enfoco en hacer que la jugabilidad esté sobre el diseño gráfico. Y sí, tomo como modelo a JP Salas al diseñar mis mesas. Aunque mi enfoque quizás difiera un poco de simplemente hacer un MOD de una mesa.
 
Me explico. Inicio el diseño desde el editor con: "New Table"; o con "Completely Blank Table". Dependiendo de si voy a copiar directamente (o no) los objetos plásticos como los Caps de los Bumpers, o pegs plásticos, etc.
 
Comenzar a diseñar así me asegura que la mesa tendrá "velocidad", ya que si uso una mesa ya fabricada tendría que modificar y adaptar el código además de que tampoco sé hasta que punto las primitivas o gráficos consuman recursos del PC. Y además, cuando la mesa está totalmente vacía, va siempre a máxima velocidad. XDD
 
Luego coloco elementos, programo el comportamiento de estos y voy trazando la estrategia a seguir conforme va avanzando el trabajo:
Por ejemplo, he aprendido que usar muchos Flasher a la vez o de gran tamaño, y que muchos juegos de luces a toda potencia, ralentiza el juego o hace tartamudear la bola, o simplemente pierdes frames en pantalla y la bola se teletransporta a otro lugar; así que los uso cuando la bola está bloqueada o retenida en alguna parte del juego (un kicker, un túnel o similar). Otras veces hago una animación simple de luces de toda la mesa, ya que el control de luces pasa a un LightSequence y eso alivia el procesamiento de datos.
 
Más que la cuestión gráfica, he aprendido que VPX depende en gran medida del procesamiento de datos de la CPU. Pero que los gráficos están muy relacionados con ese procesamiento, ya sea por texturas gráficas, luces, etc.
 
Intento no usar gráficos 4K, ya que consumen mucho recurso al procesar texturas durante el juego. Además, mis monitores son HD y como máximo dan 1920x1080 de resolución (en realidad 1360x768).
 
Ahora que lo mencionas, no me había fijado en que uso una configuración de PC de gama baja (o gama media pero obsoleta).
 
 
Bueno, que me pierdo en mis divagaciones.
 
En mis mesas, leyendo el Script, siempre coloco un montón de flags para activar o desactivar características. Por ejemplo animaciones gráficas, sonidos extra, texturas de bolas, etc. de tal forma que deberían funcionar en un PC de gama baja-media como el mío desactivando esas cosas y saltando procesos durante el Script.
 
Respecto al peso de mis archivos, tal vez he dejado mucho material para personalizar la mesa incluido en ellos, (¿easter eggs?), cambiando plásticos o incluso la imagen del PF, pero eso no afecta al procesamiento y velocidad de la mesa al jugar. Lo que pudiera llegar a afectar dicho rendimiento está todo en el Script y en sus Flags de control.
 
Prueba con la última versión de la Captain NEMO, en teoría debería ir fluida tal como está ahora. Revisa el Script, y prueba a modificarlo para ver que tal va el rendimiento en sus versiones con Full Características (todos los Flags activos) y con las Características reducidas (desactivando esos Flags).
 
 
 
Por cierto, como dice oroborus, yo uso versiones de VPX (x86) de 32 bits, aunque mi PC sea de 64 bits. No sé si eso influya mucho, pero a mí me va más fluido.
 
 
Saludos.
 
EpeC.
 
---
 
Hello.
 
When I make a table (I've actually made only one, even though there are two versions, well three versions of the same one if you count the latest v26), I focus on making the gameplay over the graphic design. And yes, I take JP Salas as a model when designing my tables. Although my approach may differ a little from simply making a MOD of a table.
 
I explain. I start the layout from the editor with: "New Table"; or with "Completely Blank Table". Depending on whether I am going to directly copy (or not) the plastic objects such as Bumper Caps, or plastic pegs, etc.
 
Starting to design like this assures me that the table will have "speed", since if I use an already manufactured table I would have to modify and adapt the code, and I also don't know to what extent the primitives or graphics consume PC resources. And also, when the table is completely empty, it always goes at maximum speed. XDD
 
Then I place elements, program their behavior and outline the strategy to follow as the work progresses:
For example, I have learned that using many Flashers at once or large ones, and using too many flashers at full power, slows down the game or makes the ball stutter, or you simply lose frames on the screen and the ball teleports to another place. ; so I use them when the ball is blocked or held in some part of the game (a kicker, a tunnel or similar). Other times I do a simple light animation of the entire table, since the light control is passed to a LightSequence and that alleviates data processing.
 
More than the graphics issue, I have learned that VPX relies heavily on CPU data processing. But graphics are closely related to that processing, whether through graphic textures, lights, etc.
 
I try not to use 4K graphics, as they consume a lot of resources when processing textures during the game. Also, my monitors are HD and at most give 1920x1080 resolution (actually 1360x768).
 
Now that you mention it, I didn't realize that I use a low-end (or mid-range but outdated) PC configuration.
 
 
Well, I get lost in my ramblings.
 
On my tables, reading the Script, I always place a lot of flags to activate or deactivate features. For example graphic animations, extra sounds, ball textures, etc. in such a way that they should work on a low-medium range PC like mine by disabling those things and skipping processes during the Script.
 
Regarding the weight of my files, perhaps I have left a lot of material to customize the table included in them, (easter eggs?), changing plastics or even the PF image, but that does not affect the processing and speed of the table when playing . What could affect said performance is all in the Script and its control Flags.
 
Try the latest version of Captain NEMO, in theory it should run smoothly as it is now. Review the Script, and try modifying it to see how the performance is in its versions with Full Features (all Flags active) and with Reduced Features (disabling those Flags).
 
 
 
By the way, as oroborus says, I use 32-bit versions of VPX (x86), even though my PC is 64-bit. I don't know if that has much influence, but it goes more smoothly for me.
 
 
Greetings.
 
EpeC.


#10 Mike DA Spike

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Posted 25 April 2024 - 08:20 AM

Hi,
  
I recently installed some tables from VPW team.They also look fantastic but unfortunately are apparently a lot more hardware demanding and i am unable to get much more that 100fps which is rather choppy.
 
Do you guys know of any other table creator with focus on fluidity as jpsalas?
 
Thanks guys

100 fps should be enough to play smooth, but your screen needs to be adjusted as well.
I just played an old table and it was cut to 65 fps, but played very smooth on my 144hz video.

Try to limit your fps to the screenrefresh rate and if capable, use vsync in visual pinball.

331ddabcc742f0ba74791e946eb0f791.gif Try PinballX Database manager as a replacement of PinballX's game list manager
With special thanks to Scutters 


#11 X Vector

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Posted 25 April 2024 - 08:29 AM

Hi,

 

I recently started playing around with VPX and installed a bunch of tables to try out.

I believe i have a medium specs machine... not great but also not too bad.

 

I am a huge fan of jpsalas because not only do his tables look great, but they also play great on my machine specs (usually i get between 300 to 400fps) which delivers a very fluid experience.

I ended up installing all his tables :)

 

I recently installed some tables from VPW team.They also look fantastic but unfortunately are apparently a lot more hardware demanding and i am unable to get much more that 100fps which is rather choppy.

 

Do you guys know of any other table creator with focus on fluidity as jpsalas?

 

Thanks guys

 

My PC isn't exactly high end (2015 GPU + 2010 everything else) and almost all tables play fluidly with frame pacing at 85Hz, though I'm using a CRT monitor which of course doesn't have a native refresh rate.

The latest VPX8 release candidates have also markedly improved frame rate on some tables. 

By skipping tables from the likes of VPW, UnclePaulie and bord you would deprive yourself of the best that Visual Pinball has to offer.

Try Mousin' Around by UP for example, it just doesn't really get any better than that:

 

 

If you resized all of the huge pics in a VPW table to something lower than 4k, you might get rid of the choppiness.

Just open the Image Manager in table, and export the huge pics, (Be sure to checkmark Use name on export,) resize them with pic editor like GIMP or Photoshop, and import them back into the table.

This usually works on any tables that use HUGE resolution pics.

 

JP's tables are pretty much the gold standard on how to have small file size, without losing quality.

Many times, his table size is smaller than the Backglass file size! AMAZING!

As unclewilly mentioned, you can limit the texture size used by VPX in the graphics settings, both globally and per table.
Is there any advantage in the manual method you describe?
 


Edited by X Vector, 25 April 2024 - 08:30 AM.


#12 xenonph

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Posted 25 April 2024 - 08:50 AM

 

If you resized all of the huge pics in a VPW table to something lower than 4k, you might get rid of the choppiness.

Just open the Image Manager in table, and export the huge pics, (Be sure to checkmark Use name on export,) resize them with pic editor like GIMP or Photoshop, and import them back into the table.

This usually works on any tables that use HUGE resolution pics.

 

JP's tables are pretty much the gold standard on how to have small file size, without losing quality.

Many times, his table size is smaller than the Backglass file size! AMAZING!

As unclewilly mentioned, you can limit the texture size used by VPX in the graphics settings, both globally and per table.
Is there any advantage in the manual method you describe?
 

 

 

I was unaware that these graphics settings could be set per table, until unclewilly mentioned it.


CHECK OUT THIS TUTORIAL http://www.vpforums....howtopic=32515
TO USE DB2S BACKGLASS PROGRAM WITH DESKTOP TABLES ON 1 MONITOR

 


#13 jpsalas

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Posted 25 April 2024 - 12:48 PM

One of the problems with VPW and similar tables are the bigger images which maybe will need to use the 64 bits of VPX because of the memory used.

 

But the problem with micro stutter is not usually because of the bigger images, but the amount of math involved in the flipper/rubber and target script they use. You need a powerful cpu with those tables. If your cpu is not powerful enough  you will notice some micro stutter even if the framerate is high. One thing you can do to free some cpu is to set the whole visual pinball folder as a virus exception, also set the vpinball.exe as an exception in the antivirus. I also turn off all the unneeded Windows services and telemetry. To do that I use this program, O&O ShutUp 10++:

O&O ShutUp10++ – Your version is up to date (oo-software.com)

 

edit: I just want to add that this program is free and save to use. I have used it for years, and it works very well.

 

I also use this batch file to turn off many Windows services and telemetry services and schedule tasks. These services are for Windows 11 Pro, but I guess they work in Windows 10 Pro. It is possible that, in Windows Home edition, you get an error with some of those services as they may not exist. Just rename the txt file to cmd or bat and run it as an administrator to turn off the services.

 

Attached File  services.zip   843bytes   10 downloads

 

Cheers, JP


Edited by jpsalas, 25 April 2024 - 02:21 PM.

These are my tables, sorted by date, all them playable with VPX 7 or newer:

vp.jpg

After 18 years making tables, it is time to take a rest and let new authors do their thing.

I guess at last I'll play some more pinball :). But I'm sure I'll make some table updates from time to time :)


#14 bigus1

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Posted 25 April 2024 - 01:43 PM

If you double the size of an image, it's four times the pixels to process and if you quadruple the size, it's 16x as many. 100 times a second. On a 4K screen, a spinner takes up maybe 100x80 pixels max in normal play mode, so there's no point having a huge image for the GPU to manipulate down to that scale at 100Hz. It won't look better other than for zooming-in to the eyeballs in VR or testing. For everything else, it's a huge and unnecessary slug on performance. Using webp to reduce the file size of an image does nothing to the pixel equation but will reduce memory usage a little. Flashers especially should have as few pixels as you can get away with in their images to avoid high load.



#15 IRgEEK

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Posted 25 April 2024 - 02:33 PM

That batch file for service control looks to be very handy! Many Thanks @jpsalas!



#16 X Vector

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Posted 25 April 2024 - 02:36 PM

You need a powerful cpu with those tables. If your cpu is not powerful enough  you will notice some micro stutter even if the framerate is high.

How powerful is powerful?

My PC uses an i7 2600K which is a CPU model from 2010 and most if not all VPW tables are running smoothly.

The only issues I occasionally run into are (V)RAM related and those can usually be remedied by restricting texture size.

The one table that I've played recently that displays ball stutter is Blackout by unclewilly, which goes to show that nfozzy physics need to be tweaked to work efficiently (the insert lighting is pretty impressive, though).



#17 lminimart

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Posted 26 April 2024 - 11:46 AM

Seems like the OP is running VPX without any sync of any kind. That won't give you the smooth performance that adaptive vsync or frame pacing will give you. I played at locked 100hz vsync for over a year, with absolutely smooth performance even on demanding tables, running VPX on an old i5 office PC with a 1650 jammed in it. :) Locked 100hz VPX looks fantastic. You don't need 400+ fps, and if you're running that high without any sync, you likely see tearing on a regular basis. Running with sync on will be an eye-opening experience. Obviously, not all monitors support all refresh rates, just lock to the highest supported rate that your pc can handle.

Edited by lminimart, 26 April 2024 - 11:55 AM.


#18 pedrojorge

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Posted 26 April 2024 - 11:47 PM

Thanks guys, i really wasn't expecting this much feedback! This is definitely a community of good people willing to help each other out.. many thanks for all your suggestions!

 

What really seemed to make the difference was indeed vsync..

In fact i was running VPW tables on VPX 8.0 with Synchronization mode set to "No Sync". When i switched to any of the other 3 options.. boy what a difference!

 

Which type of sync do you guys tend to use? Vertical, adaptive or frame pacing?

Also, what do you put on "Maximum framerate"? The value of the monitor refresh rate? Is that what locked vsync means? Or you just leave it blank?

 

Regarding my monitor, it is an HP w2207h bought it in 2008! Almost 20 years old LOL... it is only capable of 60hz refresh rate.

Do you think i would benefit in upgrading to a more recent model with a better refresh rate? I see there are already some models with 360hz out there!

 

Once again thanks to all



#19 X Vector

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Posted 27 April 2024 - 08:29 AM

In my case: (Borderless) Window, Frame Pacing, Max Framerate 0, Max pre-rendered Frames 0.

 

Works rather well, very occasionally I run into a table that taxes my system so heavily that even with reduced VRAM size I can't maintain fluid 85FPS.

Example: CyberRace by Flux, I think it's the flasher activity that does a number on my frame rate (especially during multiball modes).



#20 jpsalas

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Posted 27 April 2024 - 09:05 AM

In my case: (Borderless) Window, Frame Pacing, Max Framerate 0, Max pre-rendered Frames 0.

 

Works rather well, very occasionally I run into a table that taxes my system so heavily that even with reduced VRAM size I can't maintain fluid 85FPS.

Example: CyberRace by Flux, I think it's the flasher activity that does a number on my frame rate (especially during multiball modes).

I use the same settings and they seem to work fine for my two computers, a desktop one with a RTX 3080, and a portable with an Intel Iris graphics. I have no problems running on the desktop, all tables play fine at 144hz, but on the portable the VPW tables are more cpu hungry and while I get 60Hz for most tables, those VPW tables just get me between 25 and 40 fps. They are playable, but not great :)


These are my tables, sorted by date, all them playable with VPX 7 or newer:

vp.jpg

After 18 years making tables, it is time to take a rest and let new authors do their thing.

I guess at last I'll play some more pinball :). But I'm sure I'll make some table updates from time to time :)