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3D stereo settings and setup


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#1 toxie

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:30 PM

VP 10 Update: Nowadays, only the points/hints 2,3 and 7 below are really important, you can ignore most of the other text then! :) Also VPX adds an additional parameter to the 3D stereo settings (Offset) to 'move' the whole table in depth-only.

 

VP 9.1.X Update: If you use the DX9 versions of VP, note that the stereo settings (ZPD, Separation) are slightly different from the DX7 versions, due to technical reasons.

The good thing is that now most tables should be able to reuse the same settings. Also note that enabling Stereo AA is more or less for free, also there is no need anymore for 16bit rendering. In addition it shouldn't be necessary to tweak flashers or alpha ramps most of the time.

 

 

 

Now that the feature is officially out, it would be nice to get some feedback on it (performance, tables that show problems, hints on settings for tables, etc) and collect some user experiences in a new thread (old one for reference: http://www.vpforums....?showtopic=6278)..

One hint already: If a table crashes on you when using 3D output, try re-assuring that the full table is inside the rendering area, cause sometimes (very rarely) there is still a problem when a part of the table overlaps one of the screen borders, and then it either just falls back to 2D rendering (mostly) or crashes VP (rarely)..

Second hint: If you use the 3D in standard 4:3 (16:9) mode, one should change the default rendering settings in the table options (Backdrop->Options->Colors&Formatting-> at the very end there are two new options (Separation and ZPD)), as the default was optimized for cab use with 'layback' settings (see http://www.vpforums....showtopic=15071).. Same goes if you do not use layback settings, but 'standard' fullscreen rendering on cab..
As a quick explanation and very simplified: ZPD is between 0..1 and kinda tells the algorithm where you want the 3D "to happen" (small value for FS tables, bigger balue for 4:3 tables), whereas separation kinda sets the "scale" of the 3D effect (0..1 again)..

Third hint: Use 'F10' to turn 3D stereo on/off (of course only if the switch in the video settings was on) during gameplay.. (can be used for cab setups if you don't wanna play always in 3D and don't wanna mess with video settings all the time)

Fourth hint: If your CPU/GPU is up to it, enable the anti-alias setting in the 3D section of the VP video settings, the impact should be around 10%-20% or so, depending on your machine.. (unfortunately this is exclusive for the 3D mode, as it was a few-liner to make this work, and the result is worth the performance hit)

Fifth hint: Don't be disappointed when your framerate suddenly drops from 3000fps to 60fps, as this is perfectly valid.. It shouldn't really impact gameplay (as long as it's in 50-60fps range most of the time)..

Sixth hint: 16bit rendering (instead of 32bit) can help tremendously on some systems (on my cab it doubles performance), although i still had to use 32bit for windows and 16bit only in VP to not affect rendering (parts missing/looking strange).. Also the other common tricks (reduce texture resolution, reduce alpha ramp accuracy) still apply..

Seventh hint: Try the 3D code in standard 4:3 (16:9) mode first to make sure it works on your TV in general, then continue to test in rotated 9:16/FS/cab mode (and tweak your glasses if necessary, i.e. mostly you should need to rotate the foil if you don't have shutter/active or circular polarized glasses/TV) -> use Y Axis setting in VP video settings..

In general the easiness of getting a certain 3D TV type to work is like this: Circular polarized TVs should work out of the box in rotated mode (although i could never test this myself yet, but pocketpal did and said it worked for him). Linear polarized TVs require the rotation of the foils of the 3D glasses (i.e. cut out both foils (or buy separate polarized foil), rotate same way as TV, glue back onto glasses), although there is a workaround in the form of using circular polarized 3D glasses instead (f.e. real3D cinema glasses use this), at the price of getting slight ghosting effects. For active/shutter based TVs, in theory there is also no need to rotate the glasses, in practice though it seems like these also feature polarization to aid the shutter process, which makes rotation very difficult due to the electronics built into the glasses (i.e. cutting stuff there will destroy the functionality completely). There is a workaround for active/shutter based TVs in the form of using 2 shutterglasses: http://www.vpforums....e=2#entry197519

In general there is no golden rule found yet which TVs work best or even which ones work at all, although from what i've heard and experienced myself using a LG is the most reliable solution so far, but there is no way around testing VP-3D on the specific TV!!

Eighth hint: Some tables that use a lot of 2.5D magic (like T2 chrome) will unfortunately look mostly like crap in 3D mode, and there is no way of fixing this from within the rendering code..

Also all tables that use a lot of 'fake' flasher or GI bitmaps (the glowing around enabled flash lamps, like f.e. on Indy500 or Scared Stiff or White Water or Sopranos or Cirqus Voltaire, etc) or other 2.5D tricks (stuff that is added via the backdrop and not via the table itself) will look weird.. Again this cannot be fixed automatically but has to be retweaked.. One thing that can help: If the fake flasher is built with a ramp, VP9.1.5 has a new flag ('Normal 3D Stereo') in the options of each ramp that can be disabled in this case..
All tables that use more or less full 3D all of the time (all hail JP, as a prominent example ;)) should work out of the box..

Ninth hint: The apron can look weird on some tables (strange distortion left vs right eye).. This i could actually fix, but would have to pay with a lot of performance as currently the code uses a lot of weird tricks to make it as fast as possible (it's all written in ASM-like intrinsic SSE2 code) and unfortunately this shows sometimes for stuff that is very close to the 'virtual playfield glass'.. One workaround is to add walls on the side of the table, with basically the height of a real pinball machine (as if you were buidling a cabinet around the virtual table).. This way the apron cannot 'touch' the virtual playfield glass anymore and so have less distortion..

Tenth hint: Some alpha ramps and other transparent stuff can look stupid if the 3D effect is extreme on them, due to the way the 3D code has to work (thanx DX7 ;)), and unfortunately here there is no workaround i know of.. One thing that can maybe help though: VP9.1.5 has a new flag ('Normal 3D Stereo') in the options of each ramp that can be disabled in this case.. Sometimes it can look good (No Fear, etc), sometimes not (Star Wars Trilogy, etc)..

 

 

And finally some exemplary table settings for VP9.2.1 that i use on my own cab (it is built with the TV being aligned with the playfield glass, or to be precise: It -is- the playfield glass ;)) to demonstrate how stuff can be setup to look reasonably realistic:

(1: Inclination, 2: FOV, 3: Layback, 4: 3D Stereo Separation, 5: 3D Stereo ZPD)

mm: 10.5, 65, 90, 0.02, 0.1333
afm: 10.5, 65, 90, 0.02, 0.2
tspp: 10.5, 65, 90, 0.02, 0.12
ij: 10.5, 65, 90, 0.0175, 0.1
cv: 10.5, 65, 90, 0.0175, 0.1666
cftbl: 10.5, 65, 90, 0.0175, 0.1666
totan: 10.5, 65, 90, 0.02, 0.2
sopranos: 10.5, 65, 90, 0.02, 0.2
lotr: 10.5, 65, 90, 0.02, 0.2
ss: 10.5, 65, 90, 0.02, 0.1666
tom: 10.5, 65, 90, 0.0175, 0.125


Edited by toxie, 24 December 2015 - 11:17 AM.


#2 Slydog43

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 02:31 PM

WOW thanks for Update Toxie, Can't wait to try this out. I guess I'm going to bring a laptop to BestBuy to see what this looks like. Thanks again for what I think will be a great addition to VP.

#3 toxie

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:14 PM

Remember to carefully test in rotated mode, too! For this don't forget to enable the y-axis flag in the video settings..

#4 am1001

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 10:13 PM

Hi Toxie

Many thanks for releasing the 3d version - we really appreciate all the hard work it must have taken.

I have not had much luck so far. I have a 3d monitor/tv made by LG. Its a 27inch passive set.

I tried 4:3 tables - twilight zone, partyzone, indiana jones.

I don't know much about changing setting in vp, so all I did was enable 3d stereo in option and loaded the table.

It showed two images, one above the other when I looked at the screen in 4:3 mode.

The images had a very interlaced look about them - so much so it was unplayable. I include a screenshot below.
If I pressed F10 it looked fine and sharp, but togging back to 3d mode it looked like the screengrab below.

What should I be doing? When I switched my tv to 3d move (over and under) it did show one image but was still very interlaced and unplayable.

I read your notes above but did not know what to change when in 4:3 mode - I am a complete noob when it comes to changing any settings in VP.

http://s15.postimage...screen_shot.jpg

http://postimage.org/image/ygyh4v1gn/


Also is there a way to render in other 3d modes eg SBS, etc?

It may help us noobs if there could be a list of settings to change when playing in 4:3 mode, and for when we try in FS mode?


UPDATE: I didn't know what I was doing but changed the two settings separation and zpd to 0.005 and the images was clearer but still slighlty interlaced looking

I then switched to 3d move (over under) and I could see a light layering. I've also tried the 4:3 version of jpsales taxi - this had a slight layering

What can I do? thanks

cheers
Al

Edited by am1001, 21 October 2012 - 11:18 PM.


#5 toxie

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:00 AM

Hmmm.. this could be some weirdness of the gfx mode.. what resolution did you use and which gfx card?

#6 am1001

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:27 PM

Hi Toxie
Graphics card is a built in nvidia mobile 9600 graphics, and resolution was 1920x1080.

I tried several tables and all were the same issue.

I changed the separation and zpd values to smaller values and it did improve things but I don't know what these values do?

What does the value for separation and ZPD do? - and what are the best default setting for playing 4:3 tables?
Also what does y Axis setting do?

At the moment its not playable for me so if you can give me some instructions on how to setup the settings for 4:3 tables I would be very grateful.

Also can the program work with nvidia 3d vision format, or output in Side by Side format. By default it goes over/under.

Thanks
Al

#7 toxie

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:38 PM

Ah, okay, a good 'old G9X series chip.. not all of these old cards are properly supported, but not because out of lazyness, but as they won't provide any useful performance anyhow..
What do the numbers say when you press F11 with the 3D enabled?

As for nv's 3d vision: would have loved to support that but it seems like this doesn't work with the stone old DX7 that is used in VP..

#8 king91six

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:39 PM

YOU HAVE TO ENABLE 3D IN YOUR MONITOR. TURN 3D ON AND SELECT THE OPTION THAT LOOKS LIKE YOUR IMAGE. OVER UNDER OR SIDE BY SIDE, YOUR IS OVER UNDER.

#9 jeffnet

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:51 PM

I just want to point out that 3D support on cabinets won't wory because the technology (Active Glasses) do not support sideways viewing of TV. It's the same problem as watching 3D tv at home and turning your head 90 degrees. Cool though

If this is not the case prove me wrong, but I have 2 HD 3D Tv's and 3D is accomplished by two images horizontal not vertical

#10 Slydog43

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:17 PM

Holly SH*t, I am totally blown away with this. I just went out and bought a LG 42LM6200 to try this 3D stuff out. I have seen 3d Pinball via ZenPinball on a PS3 with a Sony 3D monitor and it was totally 3D, but I didn't like the games and there was lots of lag. I placed the 3D TV on top of my cabinet and is actually only a little too wide. I checked all three options with the 3D in VP 9.13. Loaded up my favorite table TAF and almost fell over. WOW can't believe how awesome it looks.

Now to the bad, but might be related to the monitor. There is a large delay when I hit the flipper and when it actually goes. I have it wired HDMI to DV to my Nvidia 660ti and choose game setting under TV. I really hope I'm missing something, cause I want this in my next build.

Great job Toxie, wish there was a way to show people this. Take a bow please Toxie.

Note: with this monitor in non 3d mode, there is no lag at all.

Wow the chair in TAF looks like it comes off the table
The martians in Attack from Mars looks so 3D, just popping off the table. Incredible that the table was not designed for this, yet it looks so good.

Does everyone have lag in 3D mode or is it my monitor?


This does work in cabinets as this tv works with Passive glasses. I think that is a requirement, please correct me if I'm wrong on this. You Need a Passive 3D TV right?

Edited by Slydog43, 22 October 2012 - 09:30 PM.


#11 toxie

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:58 PM

I just want to point out that 3D support on cabinets won't wory because the technology (Active Glasses) do not support sideways viewing of TV. It's the same problem as watching 3D tv at home and turning your head 90 degrees. Cool though

If this is not the case prove me wrong, but I have 2 HD 3D Tv's and 3D is accomplished by two images horizontal not vertical


That's why there is a y-axis setting in the options.. as for active glasses: these should work out of the box unless your TV is really weird..

Now to the bad, but might be related to the monitor. There is a large delay when I hit the flipper and when it actually goes. I have it wired HDMI to DV to my Nvidia 660ti and choose game setting under TV. I really hope I'm missing something, cause I want this in my next build.


Multiple options/possibilities with LGs: First of all, 'rename' the input from HDMI to PC (or Game, but PC is sometimes a bit less laggy). Second enable Game mode in the video settings (and maybe also sound settings).
This sets the TV up for optimal performance IN 2D ONLY THOUGH! Yup, there are separate settings for 3D, too! On some LGs you have to enable Game mode again when in 3D, on others you have to press the AV button until you end up in Game mode. And -bam-, almost no lag (it took me ages to find out the AV button part on my 5400!)..

Great job Toxie, wish there was a way to show people this. Take a bow please Toxie.


Thanx a lot! :)
It's like crack, once you got it, there is no way back.. ;)

This does work in cabinets as this tv works with Passive glasses. I think that is a requirement, please correct me if I'm wrong on this. You Need a Passive 3D TV right?


I don't think so, but we need more testers to prove this..

#12 Slydog43

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:56 PM

I went through many settings and still have lag. Wow I loaded up Whitewater, incredible seeing the 3 layers of ramps. The search is on for a lagless 3D LCD. Please let people know what 3D tv people are trying. I have completely given up on the LG, but I don't think it can handle it, shit it powered on when I turned on my computer which was one complaint I had with my 37LCD.

Toxie you are the man!

#13 jeffnet

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:53 AM

Wow, I didn't know about the Y axis 3D setting, I haven't tried it yet. My 3D tv is 60 inches so it won't fit on the cabinet lol... I'll have to wait and try it next deal I find on a 40inch 3d

#14 toxie

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:28 AM

I can add two TVs (as requested) that can be used IMHO without noticeable lag: lg LW 650s (so also the 659s) an the lg LW 5400..

#15 am1001

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:38 AM

Hi Toxie

I gave up on 4:3 mode on my LG 3d monitor/Tv and tried a full screen table instead - and it worked!!

My 3d tv is a LG-DM2780D which is a 27 inch 3d monitor/tv.

http://www.amazon.co...50988131&sr=8-2

For some strange reason when I first bought this monitor they shipped the wrong glasses in the box - I rang LG and they sent me the correct ones.

Anyway the 3d works really well now - it was a real WOW moment!

I've only tried TAF so far.

In terms of how the 3d looked - it was like looking into a pinball table where the playfield was deep and certain objects eg the chair in TAF was in 3d. Is there any way to make the 3d effect bigger eg with the parameters ZPD and Separation?

I was surprised at the lack of lag - I'm running it off my acer laptop which has a 2.2 ghz dual core processor and a mobile 9600 GT nvidia graphics and I ran the table at 1920x1080 and it played great! If I enabled antilaising - it was really slow but it looked great anyway without antilaising.

Can't wait to try out some more tables!

Fantastic work Toxie!

Al

#16 toxie

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:43 AM

Okay, now i'm actually multi-surprised: a) it works in not 4:3 b) it works fast enough on your rusty mobile 9600 gt!
My try at explaining this: a) it might be that you ran almost out of memory when you tried the 4:3 table, but not with the FS table (which triggers kinda of a fallback mode, memory wise, for the first case, which cannot be handled by the 3d stereo code properly due to some weird framebuffer layout that is there, or some other unsupported feature)
b) might be that some internal gfx and/or more modern onchip gfx would be the fastest here due to their super-fast connection to the gfx mem (when compared to the other mechanism that is triggered when using DX7 on new gfx boards)

And as for the bigger 3d effect: as said, the default is optimized for layback tables, as i personally think that this is the best solution to simulate the tables in 3D at the moment (see my second hint in the first post), i don't remember the exact settings for FS tables i used, but mario suggested (0,22, 0,02).. For 4:3 tables one must mainly tune the ZPD value (has to be much larger)..

#17 JayP

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:50 PM

Awesome work, I only have 3d glasses currently for a 3d-xl and optoma HD67N projector so tested this on an 80" screen on an ION3D. The ION3D could open the tables but playing wasn't possible as expected.

Glasses on order for the cab 46" about 5 mins after seeing it running least then I can test on the cab pc.

Thanks for the update, VP just keeps getting better and better. :otvclap:

#18 top1percent

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 06:16 PM

I'd love to see this. Is there anyway to capture a video of this running and post it up on Youtube 3d? I know Youtube 3d will automatically stream it in the 3d option of your choice, but I'm not sure if it's possible to actually capture the video from the computer itself? Any ideas?

Thanks,

Brad

#19 toxie

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 10:50 PM

You can do this yourself.. simply enable 3d and grab with a program like fraps..

#20 destruk

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:38 PM

I think you would need to use a camcorder shot through 3d glasses of some type to capture what the end result looks like for those who don't own a 3d capable tv set.
Using fraps will save the output from the video card - not the end result that shows on the TV.

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