106 replies to this topic

[am1001]

With 3d coming - I was just wondering if Visual Pinball or Future Pinball could be one day in 3d?

There has been a couple of 3d pinball programs on the iphone (using old fashioned red/blue glasses) but I am thinking of the nvidia 3d vision (using shutter glasses). I tried them on the iphone using (red/blue glasses) and there was a bit of 3d effect but it was a bit pointless as the screen was so small (games were 'the deep' and 'wild west').

Any ideas on whether it would work with proper 3d eg nvidia 3d vision - could be really interesting for showing 'depth' in a pinball table, also spatial for ramps/orbits etc.
I think the framerate needs to be twice usual (120 Hz) but could there be a software version of Visual Pinball or future Pinball to work in 3d?

cheers for any info or ideas.

Edited by am1001, 15 March 2010 - 01:20 PM.

[Xantor]

As soon as you have a real 3D rendering engine 'real' 3D is actually quite simple. On every other frame you move the viewpoint a bit to the right, and signal your glasses to black out one eye. Done.

Now to get VP to use a 3D engine... that's a tad harder. In FP it would be minutes work if the author can be arsed to do so, cause we don't have source.

[gear323]

I was thinking about this myself the other day. I have posted this video before about headtracking. if you watch through the entire video, you will see that objects look 3D with headtracking. No glasses needed. If future pinball supported this that would be really cool.




The 3d image in FP would not have to move much at all . Imagine this on a full screen cab. The perspective of the 3d image would only have to change ever so slightly for the 3d effect.

So how about both. Head tracking and 3d. Now we are talking! I think a good example of this is T2. On a virtual cab looking top down you see the top of the skull. On a real pinball table you see the face of the skull while playing. Head tracking would allow the perspective to change so that you would see everything at the right angle depending on where you are standing. If you got really close to the table and stood above it, it could then show you the top of the skull. This would give the illusion that the objects were not flat on the screen just like in the above video.


Im sure Nanotech and Black are working on a really cool commericial product. I can only hope that it includes some of these features.

Edited by gear323, 16 March 2010 - 11:43 PM.

[tigerman]

3d glasses + head tracking = hologram!

looking forward to use both, Future Pinball already supports TrackIR, but i can't get Nvidia 3D Vision to work.
It looks is rendered in OpenGL, that is not supported by 3D Vision, is there any way to let FP use d3d instead ? maybe by a command line, or registry value?

thanks

[007]

There comes a point in virtual pinballing, when it's easier and probably cheaper to get hold of a real pinball machine, put shades on, and wear a bucket on your head.

[faralos]

The rendering power needed to pull that off would have to be tremendous too. us older tower owners wouldn't be able to use that, but that looks cool! I like it when he actually moved behind the ones floating out in front! I have seen 3d before but not where you can move into the screen itself! Don't understand that part of it but if it can be incorporated into todays video gaming rigs then the world is about to change (holodecks here we come!)

[tigerman]

There comes a point in virtual pinballing, when it's easier and probably cheaper to get hold of a real pinball machine, put shades on, and wear a bucket on your head.

yeah this is for sure my dream in the box, and i'm sure i'm not alone here

btw, for now, i'll be really happy if i can try FP+hyperpin+3dvision+headtracking, putting my monitor vertically on my desk, trackir costs 170bucks, that is a lot, but far from what i should need for a pinball cabinet.
I have also a wii, maybe i should try with that before purchasing TrackIR
Main problem now is nvidia 3dvision and future pinball that doesn't works, maybe we need other glasses? like iz3d for example, if i'm not wrong they support also Opengl, i don't have those btw... too bad!

Does anyone has succesfully managed to get future pinball works in stereoscopic mode with any device?

The rendering power needed to pull that off would have to be tremendous too. us older tower owners wouldn't be able to use that, but that looks cool! I like it when he actually moved behind the ones floating out in front! I have seen 3d before but not where you can move into the screen itself! Don't understand that part of it but if it can be incorporated into todays video gaming rigs then the world is about to change (holodecks here we come!)

imagine that the surface is the pinball and you are wearing stereo glasses, and you can walk around the table to see all the stuff... WOW

Edited by tigerman, 04 May 2011 - 12:42 PM.

[sleepy]

The rendering power needed to pull that off would have to be tremendous too. us older tower owners wouldn't be able to use that, but that looks cool! I like it when he actually moved behind the ones floating out in front! I have seen 3d before but not where you can move into the screen itself! Don't understand that part of it but if it can be incorporated into todays video gaming rigs then the world is about to change (holodecks here we come!)

Not really. The basic digital technology that will make it possible has been in use in television
since 1984!

[faralos]

Tigerman, is that a video of a real object or a rendering of one?I see people in the background but then i saw animation of the gun barrel firing so I am confused.. is it both?

[gear323]

Tigerman, is that a video of a real object or a rendering of one?I see people in the background but then i saw animation of the gun barrel firing so I am confused.. is it both?

This topic if from a year ago now. I'm glad it is finally getting some attention.

Faralos:

That is a TV lying flat just like a pinball table. It is just a 3D animation on the screen. With headtracking, the computer knows where your head is in relation to the screen and can adjust the perspective of the image on the screen so that it looks correct from all angles. This is would the ultimate experience in virtual pinball. Keep in mind that this will only work for one person at a time. The perspective would look really off for anyone that does not have their head near the person's head that the computer is tracking. Since pinball is a one person at a time game, it would not really matter that much.


One day….. I still have not set up a pin cab because I’m waiting for this. When this is available in a pinball program that supports pinmame, I’ll be the first one setting up a new cab.

I must admit that some of these recent full screen recreations that have been released recently are really great. They almost have me setting up a cab now but I'm trying to hold out still.

A big thanks to all you authors!!

Edited by gear323, 07 May 2011 - 02:54 PM.

[Itchigo]

There comes a point in virtual pinballing, when it's easier and probably cheaper to get hold of a real pinball machine, put shades on, and wear a bucket on your head.

"That deaf, dumb, and blind kid, sure plays a mean pinball"!!

[tigerman]

i have a bad news about 3dvision, you can't use it if monitor is in vertical position, like it should be used for a pinball cab, everything became black!! too bad.

In fact that youtube video i've linked above is done with a projector and the surface is just a flat surface with image projected from above.

don't know if iz3d and tridef suffers aswell this issue like 3dvision, in this case to get stereoscopic view + head tracking we would need a 3d projector!!
cheapest one is about 500$... 720p

does anyone with tridef or iz3d can confirm if this issue is present or not ?
if i'm not wrong they should support opengl aswell so they will probably works with future pinball already.

cheers

[Gravy]

i have a bad news about 3dvision, you can't use it if monitor is in vertical position, like it should be used for a pinball cab, everything became black!! too bad.

Im guessing if it turns black then the 3dvision glasses must have polarised lenses even if they are LCD switching lenses, and when coupled with the polarising filter which I believe is in most LCD screens, you end up with a black screen when rotating the monitor. Out of curiousity, try putting your monitor in vertical orientation, then turning your head to 90 degrees with the glasses on and see if the image comes back into view. Even if this does work though, my guess is that the image displacement would be incorrect (would probably be vertical displacement once the monitor is rotated when what you need is horizontal displacement). So you would need the drivers to have an option for vertical screen 3d

There are some alternatives to trackir that are very low cost or free and they do work with Future Pinball, although not in the same way that the Johnny Lee videos show. See an article I wrote a few years ago at http://www.pinballad...p...59&Itemid=2

[anthias]

I can't recall which one it was, but in one of his tables Rockinghorse did 3d (red blue glasses) - it was pretty cool.

[tigerman]

Im guessing if it turns black then the 3dvision glasses must have polarised lenses even if they are LCD switching lenses, and when coupled with the polarising filter which I believe is in most LCD screens, you end up with a black screen when rotating the monitor. Out of curiousity, try putting your monitor in vertical orientation, then turning your head to 90 degrees with the glasses on and see if the image comes back into view. Even if this does work though, my guess is that the image displacement would be incorrect (would probably be vertical displacement once the monitor is rotated when what you need is horizontal displacement). So you would need the drivers to have an option for vertical screen 3d

yes, just tilting the head a bit gives the image back, polarized lens is the only answer as there is no other reason the image became black when you are 90degrees tilted from the monitor.
Also stereoscopic view will be incorrect, unless you are able to tell the driver to use 1080*1920 instead of 1920*1080.
that's why joining this with a head tracking software may solve the issue telling where the head is and providing the right images for both eyes

There are some alternatives to trackir that are very low cost or free and they do work with Future Pinball, although not in the same way that the Johnny Lee videos show. See an article I wrote a few years ago at http://www.pinballad...p...59&Itemid=2

thanks for this, i would like to try holographic feeling at home, but unless i get fp to go stereoscopic i'm stucked :/ maybe other glasses works, we need more info!

[Gravy]

LG have recently released a 3d TV that uses the same system that cinemas use, which is circular polarised lenses and screen, as far as Im aware you can tilt your head and not black out the image. The glasses are cheap as they are not the LCD switching type.

[Spektre]

i have a bad news about 3dvision, you can't use it if monitor is in vertical position, like it should be used for a pinball cab, everything became black!! too bad.

cheers

This is not true. The glasses do not have polarizers in them. They are strictly switching glasses.

The LCD screen usually does have polarizers, but not the glasses. I have a DLP set and can watch it sideways.

The more important thing is driver support for a sideways rotated screen. The L to R spatial difference displayed in the 2 images needs to be in the same orientation as the plane through your eyes for the 3D effect to work.

Spektre

[sleepy]

There are at least three types of 3D monitors.
One is barrier 3D. It uses no glasses, only LCD with a barrier layer controlling the left/right images.
This type will not work in 3D with vertical monitors because the LCD barrier that controls the 3D image is aligned horizontally.

The second version uses Active 3D shutter glasses and should work with a vertical monitor because the shutter-glasses are time synced to the alternating left and right frames.

The new LG "Cinema 3D" is known as a Passive 3D system because it uses the polarized lens glasses. This system is not compatible for 3D on a vertical monitor setup.
The interesting thing about this system is that it uses Interlaced scanning. Every other line trace is the left image and the lines in-between are the right image. This would normally subtract from the HDTV picture resolution like an old interlaced t.v., but it compensates for the interlaced resolution losses when you watch a 3D video. You then see all the lines, except just not in each eye. These monitors scan in normal non-interlaced HD mode when displaying a 2D video.
The advantage is that these monitors use cheap polarized glasses instead of the more expensive shutter-glasses that also need batteries.

And I wonder why the shutter-glasses are so damn expensive?
The first commercial use of shutter glasses was a $100 add-on for the 8-bit SEGA Master System with a handful of stereo 3D games available. I suppose because those shutter-glasses used a wire cable same as a wired control pad, no batteries and no remote receiver to control the shutter timing.
But they did work well. I had a pair.

Edited by sleepy, 07 June 2011 - 12:45 PM.

[Spektre]

There are at least three types of 3D monitors.
...
The second version uses Active 3D shutter glasses and should work with a vertical monitor because the shutter-glasses are time synced to the alternating left and right frames.
...

Again, I'd note the active shutter glasses COULD work, but not with the current nvidia drivers. The 3D mechanism works because the horizontal offset causes an illusion of depth. The driver would need to create a vertical offset to work with the monitor in a vertical orientation.

[faralos]

I saw in a store about five months ago a vizio tv with the wired glasses, but the saleslady said that you could also use the NON wired glasses with the tv set, it showed 3d in layers like the old genesis games with a foreground and layering thru the back grounds, it's not really 3d but it looked cool the people on the screen looked flat but it was like they were layered in front of the rest if the layers (I think this is called Parrelax scrolling) but they were wired so I am guessing that they used the polarized lenses as for the unwired ones i can't tell how they would work if the other ones used the switching polarizing thing