258 replies to this topic

[penman]

So I guess this is no go

 

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Wow!  Best table ever!

[bent98]

If Farsight makes Stern SAM cabinet friendly high quality playing table I will buy every single one but I am not holding my breathe.

Edited by bent98, 10 September 2016 - 02:17 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

I would suggest against holding your breath, for sure. I have inside knowledge, and I will tell you with 100% certainty, there is no cabinet version being made available for end users.

Yep, it's unfortunate, but true.

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[rascal]

About the only thing I could say that makes sense is... a monkey because a vest has no sleeves. Am I right! Who's with me?

Ha! Just kidding. Really though if we are all working together to make VP a better community project, then we shouldn't be protecting the stuff shirts that want to hoard all the resources. I'm not pointing any fingers. The rules should change to share and share alike. If you upload to the scene then you are uploading to share everything with the scene. You don't own it anymore, its open source to the community. OK, you put some hard work and labor into it and you got your pats on the back and your mini parade when you released it. You did it as a labor of love or at least it should be a labor of love. Now your baby has left the nest and what it develops into after that point, should not be under your control. Now, you let people improve on it if possible, fix bugs, clean it up, add to it and so on. Isn't that what the term Open Source means? The whole business of asking permission for something that none of us own is petty and ridiculous. Its nice and all that people like to give credit where credit is due, but to hold back progress on a scene which wants to grow, that's just wrong.

Now this blast is not about Stern and the agreements with Stern that is something different, but this topic is jumping all over the place and so am I. This is about the community and the people in it that think just because they put some work into something, that they can control what happens to it after they release it. If VP is open source then so should everything we release be open source. No one should own or control any of it. The rules should be simple, you upload because you want to, you now give permission for your project to be shared as an open source project. It doesn't matter if you think someone bastardized your project and re-released it. If that is the case then it would show in the download counts and comments of the bastardized project. People know crap when then see it, and not everyone may see it as crap. You got a good start with the blanket permissions, but to protect a hoarder from sharing what they do not own needs to be fixed. Its always been a problem and its always divided the community. And I am aware of the history and what all went on, and just like anything, rules change and should change. To stand by the rules that damn near destroyed the community back then is stupid in my opinion. The rules are selfish and only benefit the egotistical people.

Edited by rascal, 10 September 2016 - 02:51 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

Thanks, Al. That's a fine example of how rules changes should be addressed.

While I agree with you, I've had three or four incidents in the last 3-4 months of members upset about unauthorized MODs.

Some agree with you, yet some certainly do not.

There's a field in our upload system as to the 'moddable' status of tables. I see nothing wrong with allowing contributors to denote how they feel about MODs of their work when they upload it. I feel that system has created more willingness to share and be free to MOD than previous years.

And, yes, this topic has been all over the place. At least now people can understand the reasoning behind the things I do.

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[hauntfreaks]

I'm an out of work bum... i log in countless hours a day here... and I can only recall one member that decided his very small mods constituted him to claim the table his own

maybe the others went down behind the scenes 

builders believing there work is being compromised, PLEASE speak out so the rest of us can be a witness to the act, so we can each make decision on how we feel about offending member

 

EDIT:  my personal thought on the matter, "my personal"  <----mine

 

if someone thinks that they can update, upgrade my tables... I say more power to them

the keywords are have the word "UP" in them.... 

so my only request is that its an UPdate, an UPgrade, not a downgrade

I know someone "downgrading" sounds silly, but let me assure you there are people sadly doing this (not to my files as of yet, but nonetheless happening)

Edited by hauntfreaks, 10 September 2016 - 03:29 PM.

[sliderpoint]

Maybe you should gather all those 'official' posts from the devs with links and make a sticky somewhere that people can be directed to when the topic comes up.

 

The exact same discussions were had back then.   The thing I find the most disappointing is that vpinmame has been presented as a pinball killer:

 

 

 

The problem for us (in theory) is that a week after Stern releases a new machine, there could be a recreation available for download
This is not good for Stern
Stern needs operators to buy their machines
Operators need venues to place the machines
Venues need people to put money into the machines
If people can download new Stern tables and play them at home for free, then people do not go out and pay to play, venues will then not carry Pinball machines, operators will not buy machines and Stern goes out of business
Nobody wants that.

 

That was/is a HUGE assumption with no evidence. In fact I know of examples of that being the exact opposite of that (myself included).  15 years later, stern has finally caught up and is going to digitize tables themselves. But still leaving out people with cabs because.... no valid reason.

 

-Mike

[Noah Fentz]

I'm an out of work bum... i log in countless hours a day here... and I can only recall one member that decided his very small mods constituted him to claim the table his own

maybe the others went down behind the scenes 

builders believing there work is being compromised, PLEASE speak out so the rest of us can be a witness to the act, so we can each make decision on how we feel about offending member

 

EDIT:  my personal thought on the matter, "my personal"  <----mine

 

if someone thinks that they can update, upgrade my tables... I say more power to them

the keywords are have the word "UP" in them.... 

so my only request is that its an UPdate, an UPgrade, not a downgrade

I know someone "downgrading" sounds silly, but let me assure you there are people sadly doing this (not to my files as of yet, but nonetheless happening)

 

Then you should choose "Yes, with Approval" in the Permission to MOD field. That's why it's there.

 

Maybe you should gather all those 'official' posts from the devs with links and make a sticky somewhere that people can be directed to when the topic comes up.

 

The exact same discussions were had back then.   The thing I find the most disappointing is that vpinmame has been presented as a pinball killer:

 

 

 

The problem for us (in theory) is that a week after Stern releases a new machine, there could be a recreation available for download
This is not good for Stern
Stern needs operators to buy their machines
Operators need venues to place the machines
Venues need people to put money into the machines
If people can download new Stern tables and play them at home for free, then people do not go out and pay to play, venues will then not carry Pinball machines, operators will not buy machines and Stern goes out of business
Nobody wants that.

 

That was/is a HUGE assumption with no evidence. In fact I know of examples of that being the exact opposite of that (myself included).  15 years later, stern has finally caught up and is going to digitize tables themselves. But still leaving out people with cabs because.... no valid reason.

 

-Mike

 

There actually is a valid reason they have yet to come out with a cab version and now, a valid reason it'll be developed without availability to the end user. It wasn't economically feasible.

 

1. WMS/Bally decided the cabinet version was an entirely new platform, and it would require licensing all over again to make it available to the public.

 

2. A company (not VirtuaPin) has guaranteed a stupid amount of money annually to exclusively license the cabinet version, covering the costs of licensing the 'new' platform.

 

I suspect it'll only be a matter of time before the company licensing the cab version fails and Farsight will have a cabinet version to offer. Just my opinion, of course, but it's a stupid amount of money. A sum that I wasn't willing to match to circumvent the licensing to another company.

[hauntfreaks]

Maybe you should gather all those 'official' posts from the devs with links and make a sticky somewhere that people can be directed to when the topic comes up.

 

The exact same discussions were had back then.   The thing I find the most disappointing is that vpinmame has been presented as a pinball killer:

 

 

 

The problem for us (in theory) is that a week after Stern releases a new machine, there could be a recreation available for download
This is not good for Stern
Stern needs operators to buy their machines
Operators need venues to place the machines
Venues need people to put money into the machines
If people can download new Stern tables and play them at home for free, then people do not go out and pay to play, venues will then not carry Pinball machines, operators will not buy machines and Stern goes out of business
Nobody wants that.

 

That was/is a HUGE assumption with no evidence. In fact I know of examples of that being the exact opposite of that (myself included).  15 years later, stern has finally caught up and is going to digitize tables themselves. But still leaving out people with cabs because.... no valid reason.

 

-Mike

 

Man I wish i would have found that before i posted way back on the first page....
this is conclusive truth that we have no power to affect the economics of the real pinball industry, other than positive... which has been proven over and over within this community alone...  

 

boy could i go on for days with this one....

 I'll make it short....  VP will never, could never ever affect real machine sales.... we are nowhere close to reinvent enough in the real pinball world.... 

and i believe 100% this is the truth

[rascal]

 

 

Some agree with you, yet some certainly do not.
 

 

 

The ones that don't agree with me are the trouble makers! Just tell me who they are and where they live and I can straighten this all out.
 

[hauntfreaks]

 

 

2. A company (not VirtuaPin) has guaranteed a stupid amount of money annually to exclusively license the cabinet version, covering the costs of licensing the 'new' platform.

 

I suspect it'll only be a matter of time before the company licensing the cab version fails and Farsight will have a cabinet version to offer. Just my opinion, of course, but it's a stupid amount of money. A sum that I wasn't willing to match to circumvent the licensing to another company.

 

 

the day there is a version of farcrap that has cab support anyone that wants it, will have it in there cab... its no different than their current software being payed for when it can be had for free thought the interwebs.... this would be called "if there's a will, there's a way" as its being fostered by smart poor people... 

 

EDIT: I don't condone nor oppose these actions 

Edited by hauntfreaks, 10 September 2016 - 04:01 PM.

[sliderpoint]

 

There actually is a valid reason they have yet to come out with a cab version and now, a valid reason it'll be developed without availability to the end user. It wasn't economically feasible.

 

1. WMS/Bally decided the cabinet version was an entirely new platform, and it would require licensing all over again to make it available to the public.

 

2. A company (not VirtuaPin) has guaranteed a stupid amount of money annually to exclusively license the cabinet version, covering the costs of licensing the 'new' platform.

 

I suspect it'll only be a matter of time before the company licensing the cab version fails and Farsight will have a cabinet version to offer. Just my opinion, of course, but it's a stupid amount of money. A sum that I wasn't willing to match to circumvent the licensing to another company.

 

 

Who is this WMS/Bally company that owns these licenses?  I'm not sure how they are able to decide that a PC in a pc case is a different platform than a PC in a bigger case?

 

Well, if this other company fails then it would still not be available as you said they pay annually and you said you would not match that (and I don't think you should. The other company shouldn't either, just another example of FS having other people pay for the the backend costs of their product).

 

-Mike

[Noah Fentz]

 

There actually is a valid reason they have yet to come out with a cab version and now, a valid reason it'll be developed without availability to the end user. It wasn't economically feasible.

 

1. WMS/Bally decided the cabinet version was an entirely new platform, and it would require licensing all over again to make it available to the public.

 

2. A company (not VirtuaPin) has guaranteed a stupid amount of money annually to exclusively license the cabinet version, covering the costs of licensing the 'new' platform.

 

I suspect it'll only be a matter of time before the company licensing the cab version fails and Farsight will have a cabinet version to offer. Just my opinion, of course, but it's a stupid amount of money. A sum that I wasn't willing to match to circumvent the licensing to another company.

 

 

Who is this WMS/Bally company that owns these licenses?  I'm not sure how they are able to decide that a PC in a pc case is a different platform than a PC in a bigger case?

 

Well, if this other company fails then it would still not be available as you said they pay annually and you said you would not match that (and I don't think you should. The other company shouldn't either, just another example of FS having other people pay for the the backend costs of their product).

 

-Mike

 

 

Williams is still in business, just not the pinball business. Their IP is still owned by WMS, and WMS decided it was a new platform. I felt the exact same way you do. I was ready to ship VirtuaPins fully loaded the legal way, but that put the kabosh to it.

 

Once the platform is paid for, and if there is no exclusivity, it would certainly be an asset that'll be marketed. No reason not to, in my opinion.

[sliderpoint]

Welp, just another reason to stick with VP.

 

-Mike

[hauntfreaks]

a perfect example of a new platform coming into the scene with the correct intent would be zaccaria... it was created for the complete rage of users

from hipsters and there icraps to the full on tinkerers .... that's proof of someone wanting to make money at the same time fulfill a commitment the pinball community

not just some panhandler making deals that will leave a percentage of the community out of the equation 

[Noah Fentz]

To be fair, Farsight was gungho on the cabinet version, until WMS put the kaboshing on it.

 

It would cost six figures to license for a new platform. Is the cabinet market big enough to sustain that kind of expense? I'm not sure it is.

[Drybonz]

So, this is the reason that it seems to many of us that the "Stern agreement" changed from don't make a VP version for a "few years" into never making them... because they want to keep control and make their own digital versions.  This is even supported by this very discussion.  We all know, at this point, that those digital versions are not going to have the features we want (cab support, proper camera angles, nudging, etc), so we might we well decide to make VP versions of those tables if we want those features.  The "few years" thing is never going to happen.

[Noah Fentz]

As far as I'm concerned, the three year rule still applies, and I've been discussing it with the VPM Team and toxie.

 

The issue now is the Vault Editions. They may rerun some titles, and there's no telling what.

 

In time, we'll emulate SAM. It's just not the right time, sorry. I would love to have them here.

[Drybonz]

In time, we'll emulate SAM. It's just not the right time, sorry. I would love to have them here.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean here... but that would be nice too.

[Noah Fentz]

Well, they shouldn't be anywhere, but that's not really my problem.

 

When they get taken down, then I guess you'll all come to realize I've just been looking out for the community by doing the right thing.