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Dev thread: Road to DX9


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#1641 vampirolatino2

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 01:03 PM

Too much work stress everyone, why don't we take a break and come back later. I want this project to conclude and with HIGH quality (visually) ... so, I'm with both parts. We all want the best right?



#1642 Slydog43

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 01:07 PM

nooooooooooo, please stay, your work has really changed the whole game.  Thanks for all that you have done Mukuste!



#1643 mukuste

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 01:14 PM

Don't worry guys, I'll be around, just let the tempers cool off for a while, ok? No hard feelings, I just prefer to take a break if stuff starts giving me more stress than I like.

 

Anyway I have a fun "secret" project related to VP which I'll focus on for a while now, so I won't be gone.



#1644 vampirolatino2

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 01:22 PM

Happy vacations! :) ... you know, I have learned trough time that when you have a clear mind you work better in solutions. Having stress and too much pressure will not help in anything. You will see that when you come back you will "kill" this thing.

 

We will be waiting for you! :)



#1645 DreamTrap

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 01:23 PM

it's pretty much working great anyway. any other bugs can be fixed by updating the actual tables etc so go ahead take a deserved break


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#1646 fuzzel

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 01:41 PM

Guys calm down there will be a final DX9 version maybe not that fast as you would like to have it ;) Anyway the alpha transparent issue for walls should be fixed in test14.



#1647 The Loafer

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 02:48 PM

It's not what people say, it's how it is said and it will never be "ok" to bust someone's balls to make a point. Challenge them, sure but there is line that should not be crossed and no 10 thousand word essay will ever support that as ok.

No doubt Jimmy your countless efforts to our community is appreciated and nothing can wipe that out. I would only ask that you try and understand that what you consider as "blunt" maybe it's not blunt to others.

#1648 unclewilly

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:01 PM

Don't worry guys, I'll be around, just let the tempers cool off for a while, ok? No hard feelings, I just prefer to take a break if stuff starts giving me more stress than I like.
 
Anyway I have a fun "secret" project related to VP which I'll focus on for a while now, so I won't be gone.


Looking forward to the secret project

Guys calm down there will be a final DX9 version maybe not that fast as you would like to have it ;) Anyway the alpha transparent issue for walls should be fixed in test14.


Thanks fuzzel. Appreciate your work as well as toxie. You devs have brought new life to vp and motivated me to make tables again

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#1649 DJRobX

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:25 PM

I’m sorry but I feel I’ve earned some right with my VP contributions and the level of testing / reporting here on these builds to speak up for when I have a concern or feel I have not been adequately listened to about an issue or in general on the direction of VP, at least as far as this compatibility version goes now that it is officially the main VP development stream.
...
This particular new bug / graphic quality issue specifically has negated a shit load of work / time I spent in Photoshop making / refining some of the cleanest wall based images / texture mappings I’ve seen yet in any table (for a still unreleased and now may never be released version of AFM GI8 that I’ve tried to do with photo like quality). 

 

 

I very much appreciate what you were complaining about.   I'm glad you're here arguing for quality.  I fully understand the alpha channel issue - at a previous job I worked at we built a user interface engine, and I had to argue for a similar feature so that skins (button objects and whatnot) could always look anti-aliased properly regardless of the background image the buttons were being drawn over.   I've also spent more than my fair share of time in Photoshop, so I can totally understand having an emotional response to having the details you spent so long getting right, not working.   

 

I just don't think you gave Mukuste enough time to see your perspective in this particular case. 



#1650 zany

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 04:14 PM

Mukuste....i can understand that you take a break...you must have spend all your free time on DX9.
Your work have been awesome, and still is...and with good help form others.
Hope you have a good break....sit down and have a few beers! :)

Cheers! :D


Edited by zany, 28 March 2014 - 04:37 PM.


#1651 gtxjoe

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 04:51 PM

 
Issue with setting depth bias parameter when running test13 as administrator. (using win7  x64).  
 
Run test13 as administrator.  Create new table.  Place light object on table, try to set bias to -50.  Field is cleared once it loses focus.  Works when not running as administrator


#1652 DJRobX

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 05:19 PM

 

Issue with setting depth bias parameter when running test13 as administrator. (using win7  x64).  
 
Run test13 as administrator.  Create new table.  Place light object on table, try to set bias to -50.  Field is cleared once it loses focus.  Works when not running as administrator

 

 

Strange, I can't reproduce it.  The -50 is sticking even as administrator. 



#1653 bent98

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 06:12 PM

Guys calm down there will be a final DX9 version maybe not that fast as you would like to have it ;) Anyway the alpha transparent issue for walls should be fixed in test14.

 

I'm confused. I thought it couldn't be fixed?


Edited by bent98, 28 March 2014 - 06:36 PM.


#1654 fuzzel

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:15 PM

Well there was a copy'n paste error with test13 which screwed up the alpha blending and I fixed that. I'm testing this with some tables to check if it doesn't have side effects but I think it's ok because the settings are the same as in VP9.2.1 again now



#1655 bent98

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:39 PM

Cool, thanks for clarifying. I didnt see any changes to the DX 9 github.

 

This is good news



#1656 arngrim

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:47 PM

Pffiu what a story :)

#1657 fuzzel

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:54 PM

We aren't working on the github repository anymore. We moved all changes back into the SF subversion repository. But my fix didn't fix it completely. The main problem is that if you disable the lighting on walls the color has an impact on the texture. So if you set the wall color (top/side) to pure black and assign an image to top/side the wall will be black. If you set the color to pure white the texture is back but you get white edges because of the alpha value the white color is shining through. There is a difference in how DX9 handles the render states. I'm still searching how to disable the lighting without black out the texture.



#1658 aupton

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 08:05 PM

I've only recently become aware of this amazing initiative and its progress. For the past year I've mostly been focusing on Future Pinball tables. Between Unity3D and VP with DX I'm excited to fire up my cabinet again this weekend and test out all the exciting progress!

 

However, please forgive my ignorance, but I'm curious why the focus is on DX9 when DX11 has been out for a few years now and DX12 was just announced by Microsoft? Is it a simpler path from Direct Draw to DX9 or something entirely different? I'm legitimately curious and interested to learn why.

 

Thank you Mukuste and all that have contributed!



#1659 mukuste

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 08:16 PM

I've only recently become aware of this amazing initiative and its progress. For the past year I've mostly been focusing on Future Pinball tables. Between Unity3D and VP with DX I'm excited to fire up my cabinet again this weekend and test out all the exciting progress!

 

However, please forgive my ignorance, but I'm curious why the focus is on DX9 when DX11 has been out for a few years now and DX12 was just announced by Microsoft? Is it a simpler path from Direct Draw to DX9 or something entirely different? I'm legitimately curious and interested to learn why.

 

Thank you Mukuste and all that have contributed!

 

That's pretty much it, porting from DX7 to DX9 was just easier than going directly to DX11. The main change wasn't really in the rendering API, but in the methodology (from mainly sprite-based to rendering true 3D objects). DX9 is old, but still very well supported and basically does everything we need, so there just wouldn't be much of a benefit to porting to DX11 at this point. Also, DX11 isn't supported on Win XP, which some people here still seem to run.



#1660 jimmyfingers

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 08:41 PM

 

Yet, in this and as a result, he holds the power in his hand to make or break things for VP as it stands

 

This is blatantly false and I refuse to let myself be painted into this corner where I'm single-handedly responsible for the future of VP, or where I'm slowly dragging the visual quality of VP into the gutter with every change I make. This is an open source project and everyone with the skills and motivation is free to contribute. I hold no power whatsoever over VP.

 

As for the issue you brought up, I gave a specific technical reasoning in my initial reply which you ignored, but which you could easily reproduce in any previous version of VP which does this sort of feathering by having a ball or indeed any moving element behind such an edge.

 

As it stands, I'm taking a break from DX9 work for a while; I'm reasonably happy with the level of compatibility achieved, and any changes I make at this point seem to elicit more complaints than actually solve problems. Add to that the increasing pressure of handling this operation more or less as a one man show (not to disregard the contributions of DJRobX who has made very valuable efforts in troubleshooting and debugging recently).

 

Sorry that this has come down to this and that me and my fighting for some VP elements of graphic quality retention is going to seem to be the main contributor to what caused you to take a break Mukuste.   I know I’m always now going to be disliked but even knew that was a risk when I started pushing the envelope many posts / items back in this topic.  I don’t feel I said anything, as disapproved as it’s all been received by the community, that was as harsh or summary as to that of you dragging the quality of VP into the "gutter".
 
Saying you hold a high degree of power / impact in this particular VP development stage, from my perspective at least, is not tantamount to stating you are the one solely responsible for the future of VP - for a few reasons.   But the fallout from this and you now taking a break, with the resulting cessation of progress (with users comments to support their feeling as if things have ended – and ultimately now blaming / vilifying me), actually helps demonstrates a reliance on you to a reasonable degree.  Your own final comments on handling this operation like a one man show are arguably incongruent with comments supposedly to the contrary being angry with feeling painted into the corner where you are a single-handedly involved.  It’s totally not your responsibility to take on the future of VP development nor all development, but you hopped into the driver’s seat of this VP bus a couple months ago and started driving – we were the passengers and as much as you may think, we don’t have our driver’s license.
 
VP is open source and in theory can be worked on by anyone, but even the craziest and most complicated of table scripts that us table builders can create does not equate one to an actual software developer ability and that’s something that the vast majority of us just can’t do.  I don’t believe a single VP dev.  is not or has not been a professional developer in their real life and the jump from table builder to that level is not realistic or would require many years of one’s life returned to them and a retraining regime / career shift that might be in the magnitude of 10 years or more to get anywhere close to the knowledge and skills you actual VP devs. hold.  I know with that aspect that we should also covet you guys to a very high degree and we do, so it makes taking any stance uncomfortable and likely unwelcomed.  Coveting you , the other devs. and the work you’ve done is not mutually exclusive of taking an exception to a particular issue or direction.
 
The feathering affect on the ball and it’s elements in this latest item / bug was not ignored but the impact of it, when the ball ever travels behind one of these graphic areas, will be / is much less than that of the new jaggy / discoloured “halo” that these wall object edges would now display constantly.  The feathered / alpha edge is only a few pixels thick and is enough to make a difference when rendered, but that thinness for any effect on a ball behind it is much less and it has to first even travel behind to begin to be noticed.  With a lot of these objects, their orientation and surface areas would not be in a position to produce the opportunity to even have the ball viewed from behind it yet the objects edges are almost always in full view.  
 
People are jumping all over me for the “busting your balls” terminology.  It may be just me and the way me and my friends / family use that term, but it’s meant to be a lighter way of saying you have an issue with someone over something.  It was meant to have some jest to it even though a real disagreement on something or point is at hand – also used “kick in the crotch” previous in this thread and despite it being in the opposite direction and how I had felt in that case was still in the same spirit.   If we were part of a real team and my QA “role” was formal, I could easily see us battling it out in a meeting room and busting each other’s “balls” over our views on what’s best or what can and can't be done – despite your pay grade probably being much higher than mine.  I personally feel / felt that with the level that you and I got to Mukuste and the depth in some of our PMs especially over the ball stutter issue, that I could potentially not simply lay down over an issue or when feeling it wasn’t adequately absorbed, considered, or explained and end up taking a position where my response easily could be seen as qualifying for this term or to “call BS” on a point (another term / colloquialism used in my micro culture).   We’ve battled a bit on some previous other topics and you were right to go in the direction and stay with your depth bias approach whereas the issue on decals I turned out to be right about.  When I was vehement in my views (wrong or right) back then, it was still another case where I would consider the concept of “busting your balls” somewhat.  It was never meant to be used and done simply for the sake of doing so, with no cause or without respecting you or what you’ve done, but as such also respecting what I’ve done and where we had already gone in at times fairly passionately stating our views.
 
I have purposely stayed quiet here for the last little while and that even solicited you to PM me and wonder where I was and hope I’d be back, which was actually nice to see and helped me feel like we were on the levels I mention above.  Yet, when I come back with another bug report / test table but have exception to the answer and comment on some similarities to other issues, I’m ostracized and ultimately you walk away / take a break.  I’m now public enemy number one and should have just stayed quiet it would seem.
 
I know that even the smallest amount of anti-praise is / was very volatile and except my new fate.  Obviously now with the break / slow down, my recent commitment to provide some further detail / re-raise some of the other previous and outstanding graphic issues will not be relevant nor welcomed so will act accordingly.  I wish you well Mukuste with real life and whatever aspect you still do privately or publicly for VP.  Once again I will say how hugely grateful I am for all the work you have done over the past couple months and I don’t personally think taking issue with a particular angle or item negates that.  My posts would only be yet another essay length longer if, with every time I made one (pros or con), I had to reiterate all my previously stated thanks and gratitude that is evident in the history of this topic and through the conversations of the PMs that had been relayed.
 

Guys calm down there will be a final DX9 version maybe not that fast as you would like to have it  ;) Anyway the alpha transparent issue for walls should be fixed in test14.

 

Thanks fuzzel for your efforts and already continuing development and looking into this problem.


Edited by jimmyfingers, 28 March 2014 - 08:45 PM.