1002 replies to this topic

[slashbot]

Just did F14 tomcat and ironman with the new Physicsmod for ironman u have to set the left flipperstrenght higher to make a good backshot.

Just a small question, anyone knows howto fix the kickers in LOTR, the kickers seems to not have enough power to kick the ball up.

I tried to change the Hit Height but it doesnt work,

So while im bussy is there a way to fix the ball when its locked in the kicker (its like a halve ball)?

 

Thnx in advance

[waspstar]

This is not criticism, just a suggestion to the testers. We all get extremely excited when something as major as this new physics build is on it's way but if we flood this thread we questions  about how to fix every old table with the new physics this early on in the process, I fear that it will slow down the building process and shift focus in the wrong direction. Nothing wrong with a few questions but maybe slow it down a bit or maybe have a separate thread with help on getting it to work with old tables

 

I might be way off here, and I do not want to offend anyone. Just a suggestion I am throwing out there for consideration. If OP is ok with everything, nothing is better.

 

Personally, I would want this to work on every old table, like yesterday. The new physics work so far is incredible and it will be a fantastic continuation of this already great program so no wonder people are excited

 

The future is looking bright for Visual Pinball   

[Arcade4]

If anybody "fixes" a table for the new physics, can you post it here?

I will second that.

I am really enjoying the Whitewater table, even without the whirlpool shot and the fact that you must soft plunge or the ball will just go strait down the middle every time. lol

[DJRobX]

We all get extremely excited when something as major as this new physics build is on it's way but if we flood this thread we questions  about how to fix every old table with the new physics this early on in the process, I fear that it will slow down the building process and shift focus in the wrong direction. Nothing wrong with a few questions but maybe slow it down a bit or maybe have a separate thread with help on getting it to work with old tables

 

 

I think the attempts at retrofitting old tables will provide a lot of very valuable input to Mukuste as he refines the new physics engine.   There's no better test than a "real-world" test.    

 

1) "I can't get the ball to go up the Whirlpool ramp!"   Is the behavior correct?   Is this a problem with too much friction of the ramp?   Table design that needs to be changed?   If so, how?   No matter what the outcome it's worth investigating/discussing. 

2) "I can't quite tweak the flippers to make the shots on XYZ table!" - Do we just not understand the new parameters?   Do we need additional settings exposed to achieve the best result? 

 

Even Slashbot's request for a different reg key wound up being a good bug report (analog nudging needing to be scaled up).

[mukuste]

DJRobX is right here, no harm done at all in asking those questions. After all, most VP10 tables presumably won't start from scratch but use the existing tables as a starting point, so these issues will pop up sooner or later.

 

slashbot: kicker strength is controlled from the table script, there's usually a line like "Kicker1.Kick (angle), (force)", or see the initial parameters I posted for Whitewater for another variant.

[mssmison]

Does a ball spin in a kicker on a regular table? I'm seeing a lot where the ball comes out of the kicker with spin on it still.

Edited by mssmison, 12 April 2014 - 09:24 PM.

[BigBoss]

I have 40 real pinballs. The flipper physics in the new code are really good. For dmd class games, I've made some minor changes:
Speed to 1.0
Strength to 3500
Elasticity to .85

Rest the same. Oblique to 0 now that it's ignored. Gravity I been using 0.95.

The shot angles are fantastic. The ball goes where you aim. This is the first time VP is actually a playable platform. Dx9 stuff is great and all but this really is the only way any of the games can be played.

It feels like the flipper rubbers are too dead still. I'm going to mess with elasticity values and see if that helps. On a real modern pinball, you need tricks like live catches to stop the ball. On these flippers, holding the bat up seems to be enough. I'm not sure if live catching works well here either. Need to get my bigger cabinet set up next week to do more testing.

Edited by BigBoss, 12 April 2014 - 11:56 PM.

[slashbot]

DJRobX is right here, no harm done at all in asking those questions. After all, most VP10 tables presumably won't start from scratch but use the existing tables as a starting point, so these issues will pop up sooner or later.

slashbot: kicker strength is controlled from the table script, there's usually a line like "Kicker1.Kick (angle), (force)", or see the initial parameters I posted for Whitewater for another variant.

Ok i fixed it table plays fine now


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[slashbot]

A thing i noticed is its very hard to make ramp shots when the ball return from the ramp and then shoot the ramp again.
If u keep the ball locked and then try to shoot the ramp its ok but when it return from a ramp its almost impossible to make another shoot.
2 examples from tables are scared stiff and tales from the crypt.

In scared stiff i could do sometimes like 6 ramp shot after each other , now its bloody hard to make one.

Maybe someone can better finetune the flippersettings for me?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[mukuste]

I have 40 real pinballs. The flipper physics in the new code are really good. For dmd class games, I've made some minor changes:
Speed to 1.0
Strength to 3500
Elasticity to .85

Rest the same. Oblique to 0 now that it's ignored. Gravity I been using 0.95.

The shot angles are fantastic. The ball goes where you aim. This is the first time VP is actually a playable platform. Dx9 stuff is great and all but this really is the only way any of the games can be played.

It feels like the flipper rubbers are too dead still. I'm going to mess with elasticity values and see if that helps. On a real modern pinball, you need tricks like live catches to stop the ball. On these flippers, holding the bat up seems to be enough. I'm not sure if live catching works well here either. Need to get my bigger cabinet set up next week to do more testing.

 

Thanks for the good feedback.

 

May I ask why you feel that Gravity is better at 0.95?

 

The too dead flippers might have to do with the elasticity falloff, perhaps I've chosen it too high. Are they only too dead when in up position? I thought that dead bounces when flippers are lowered look pretty close to where they should be, how do you feel about them?

[BigBoss]

I have 40 real pinballs. The flipper physics in the new code are really good. For dmd class games, I've made some minor changes:
Speed to 1.0
Strength to 3500
Elasticity to .85
Rest the same. Oblique to 0 now that it's ignored. Gravity I been using 0.95.
The shot angles are fantastic. The ball goes where you aim. This is the first time VP is actually a playable platform. Dx9 stuff is great and all but this really is the only way any of the games can be played.
It feels like the flipper rubbers are too dead still. I'm going to mess with elasticity values and see if that helps. On a real modern pinball, you need tricks like live catches to stop the ball. On these flippers, holding the bat up seems to be enough. I'm not sure if live catching works well here either. Need to get my bigger cabinet set up next week to do more testing.

 
Thanks for the good feedback.
 
May I ask why you feel that Gravity is better at 0.95?
 
The too dead flippers might have to do with the elasticity falloff, perhaps I've chosen it too high. Are they only too dead when in up position? I thought that dead bounces when flippers are lowered look pretty close to where they should be, how do you feel about them?

The flipper bounces are definitely perfect when lowered so yea, when flippers are raised seems to be where they are more dead. I am not really experiencing any flipper blind spots either. The flippers really do feel pretty good to me right now as far as aiming.

As for the gravity, that's a good question. It started with me tweaking the tron table which felt way too heavy. The ball seemed to accelerate slightly much. Then I lowered the gravity a bit and it was better. It could have been just the tron table though. There isn't much difference from 0.95 to 1.0, right?

I am currently using two flipper presets. Standard DMD which works on most sterns, Williams. They are the settings above. Then on weaker flipper games (system 11, bop, avatar, pirates) I adjust the strength down to 2400 leaving the rest the same.

[DJRobX]

 On a real modern pinball, you need tricks like live catches to stop the ball. On these flippers, holding the bat up seems to be enough. I'm not sure if live catching works well here either. Need to get my bigger cabinet set up next week to do more testing.

 

Right.   I think I naturally live catch on a real table most of the time, so the "dead" flippers with this physics mod more closely mimic what I experience when I play real tables.   I doubt I'll ever be as good as Bowen Kerins at doing live catches (see his Whirlwind tutorial as an example), but your timing doesn't need to be that precise to slow things down a lot and catch balls fairly often.    When I play a lot of tables with the VP9 old physics, I have to reduce the elasticity, or I just find the experience frustratingly difficult compared to a real machine. 

 

Another video how "dead" flippers can seem with a good live catch is here.

Edited by DJRobX, 13 April 2014 - 04:57 AM.

[mukuste]

I created a small test table to try to fix the ramp curve.

 

The table contains the ramp from AFM (slightly less curved and wider at top). And then the script shoots balls up the ramp with increasing strength. Always 2 balls with the same strength. The two lights on the table tell if it's the 1st or 2nd with that strength. 

 

Anyway it's interesting to see that even with the same strength and angle -> sometimes the ball makes it and sometimes not. 

 

In this test I even removed the right wall completely but still the ball gets stuck many times on the left wall and doesn't make it up. I think a similar bug has been present in VP already before when a ball just shoots back from ramp without any apparent reason but it just seems more visible with the new physics.

 

No idea if this helps or not but check it if you want. 

 

testtable.png

 

This was very useful, thanks. It's clear when watching this that there is a bug where the ball suddenly gets stuck on the ramp, and this seems to be a long-standing bug, it happens already in VP 9.1.5, if a bit less frequently.

 

I managed to track the bug down and fixed it while also optimizing the triangle collision code a bit. This ramp test now works smoothly as it should. I also managed to make the AFM ramp now, although I think it would still be easier with reduced friction.

[waspstar]

I see I was way off and nothing makes me feel better. Sorry for the rubish.  Carry on

[boiydiego]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=tlLjhoarx9c this is the physics i want for my cab neil shatz

[mukuste]

Anyone keeping track of how many of these tricks work now with the new physics? In my opinion:

 

Bounce pass - Yes

Post transfer - Yes

Rolling tap pass aka flick pass - Yes, but you need to be awfully quick on the flipper finger. They get much easier with a weaker return spring (not user-adjustable yet). Not sure how hard these are to pull off on a real machine.

Drop catch - Yes

Live catch - Yes (see the demo table I posted on page 2), but the timing is extremely critical. May get better with more parameter tuning.

Loop pass - I don't know, haven't tried it yet, but I think it should work

Back hand - Yes (has anyone tried the backhand shot into the Extra ball target on Whitewater? Makes you feel like a boss when you pull it off.)

Alley pass aka Shatz'ing the inlane - Yes

 

Looking pretty good!

[boiydiego]

Anyone keeping track of how many of these tricks work now with the new physics? In my opinion:

 

Bounce pass - Yes

Post transfer - Yes

Rolling tap pass aka flick pass - Yes, but you need to be awfully quick on the flipper finger. They get much easier with a weaker return spring (not user-adjustable yet). Not sure how hard these are to pull off on a real machine.

Drop catch - Yes

Live catch - Yes (see the demo table I posted on page 2), but the timing is extremely critical. May get better with more parameter tuning.

Loop pass - I don't know, haven't tried it yet, but I think it should work

Back hand - Yes (has anyone tried the backhand shot into the Extra ball target on Whitewater? Makes you feel like a boss when you pull it off.)

Alley pass aka Shatz'ing the inlane - Yes

 

Looking pretty good!

Makes you feel like a boss when you pull it off.) hahhaha this is like it should be ;-) gone install the physics today gone report to ya back muskute.

[kiwi]

Perhaps the vertical throw of the ball has not yet been implemented or not working properly, the ball does not move when the kicker shoots upwards (eg VUK).
Re-launching the table several times the frames dropping down progressively.
 

Thank you very much, this is another big step.

 

Max

[ClarkKent]

Was anybody able to fix the whirl pool ramp/shot in White Water yet? Would be nice to be able to fully play the game!

[Sunskift]

Sorry for a really stupid question, but this one is bugging me bad....
I down loaded ClarkKent's Whitewater fix (thaks a lot - nice update ClarkKent!) and I have used the Global physics setting from mukuste, but about 90% of the plunger shots center drains directly. It is only with some rather drastic nudging that I can save the ball and start playing. I have however been able to make the wirlpool once (on the tenth trial or so).

I'm probably making some really stupid beginners error here, and in that case don't let this slow you down!

Taking in the big picture..... This is AWESOME! Thanks a million for great work!