2044 replies to this topic

[Rawnei]

 

Regardless of whether it's standard vpx or VR, objects suffer from jaggies that you just don't see in modern games.  It's most evident on wireforms, depending on the angle they suffer more or less.

 

But you said that it's because of piss-poor anti-aliasing in VPVR more or less, it's not, it's using standard AA technique for VR. When VR increases in resolution it becomes better, the difference between a 1st gen headset and something premium like 1.5gen Valve Index that has both higher resolution and pixel density makes a big difference for instance.

[blindpeser]

Try it out. Put a fully grey image into the table.

[Rawnei]

The environment (HDR) image can affect how 3d objects look for sure but I don't think that's the root cause.  These rendering artifacts or 'jaggies' have been around long before the introduction of environment maps, though it has seen improvement, it still has some ways to go.  I think it has more to do with the rendering, if we compare to Future pinball (which is really old now) it never really suffered from jaggies like VP has and I believe that's due to FP running off OpenGL.

VPVR is using OpenGL graphics pipeline that's the major difference from VPX.

@dark if you are interested you can read some valuable advice and input from John Carmack about VR and aliasing here: https://news.ycombin...tem?id=12183340

 

Basically his input served as a guideline for me when i did the enhancements on VPVR.

[gear323]

I know Rawnei already mentioned this, but the screenshots I have posted are just the "VR View" that steam will let you place on your monitor and then I just used the Windows "Snipping Tool" to save the image to post it.  It is not really a good representation of what you see in the headset.  Depending on your headset, what you see may look better or it could actually look worse. 

 

Running a 8700k processor and a 1080 TI I get pretty much 0 slowdowns on any VR tables if I keep super sampling at 1.0.  The issue is VR headsets are still too low resolution so we want to increase the super sampling in order to get a better picture in the headset.  That really is the performance killer.   Another issue is by default Steam VR has SS set to automatic and many people just leave that default setting.  I found the best way to deal with this is to set SS in Steam VR to 100% and disable Auto and then to use the SS settings in VPX VR.  For my set up, SS 1.4 on the Valve Index with my 1080 Ti and overclocked 8700k is the best compromise. 

As far as the quality of the visuals in the headset, we really are just limited by the technology right now.  We need higher resolution panels of about 8K per eye for things to look really great and we will need a beast of a Video card to drive that. 

Edited by gear323, 31 January 2020 - 06:14 AM.

[freshflesh1]

Maybe ill code up bad cats i made for fp with the com extension

I love badcats, so yes please. Played your version is FP also, it's great!

[Rawnei]

Regarding performance and VPVR I am 100% sure it can improve a lot by techniques like grouping things together and doing batching the draw calls to the shader for each frame (this is the biggest thing hurting performance) but that stuff is too difficult for me to figure out how to implement in the engine, a bit too abstract for my brain how to do in code even if I understand the concept of it. So it's not that rendering pinball tables in VR are a performance killer it's just not completely optimized at the moment so there is a lot of potential to improve it.

 

Regarding aliasing if you read the valuable advice from John Carmack VR is not just about how you actually rendering stuff but also you have to concern yourself with how you build your scene and your models, like he says there very thin wires are a problem in general. With that you can draw the conclusion that also some pinball tables might not be optimally built to look best in VR.

Edited by Rawnei, 30 January 2020 - 08:14 PM.

[dark]

An interesting read, I am admittedly ignorant with VR as I haven't tried it but I am interested in it.  VP has had jaggies forever, which have improved, I just assumed this was translating into VR, but if it's going through the OpenGL pipeline I can imagine (based off the closer up screen shots) that's it's a significantly smoother and more immersive experience than traditional VPX.

[Ben Logan]

An interesting read, I am admittedly ignorant with VR as I haven't tried it but I am interested in it.  VP has had jaggies forever, which have improved, I just assumed this was translating into VR, but if it's going through the OpenGL pipeline I can imagine (based off the closer up screen shots) that's it's a significantly smoother and more immersive experience than traditional VPX.

Dark,

 

While I'm still waiting on my gaming computer, and have only tried Zen Pinball FX2 in my Oculus Quest headset so far (my first pinball VR experience), I can tell you that this fairly recent development on VPVR is the apotheosis insofar as showcasing your 3D modeling work is concerned. Can't wait to experience your work in all its genuine 3D glory. I've really enjoyed viewing your models from multiple angels in the "camera / light" window in standard VP over the years, but VR is really going to let you 3D modelers' work shine properly. Thanks so much for your tireless (and seemingly limitless) "free" contributions. Guys like you, Tom Tower and 3rdaxis are finally having your 3D models housed in a medium that really reveals the depth of artistry in your work. VR headset = 3D model museum!

 

[Rawd]

Making rooms in VR is very difficult because of the fact that everything in the room is actually on a 6.5 degree angle.   VP Editor treats the table as being 'flat', so that when you move models in the Y-axis, they stay at playfield height.   This makes it very difficult to move anything in your room into the right spot (height-wise...  The further you move something back in the room.. the higher it moves on its Z-Axis).   I'm not sure how this can possibly be fixed/avoided..

 

I change the floor to +6.5 degrees rotation so that you are standing on a flat surface in VR, but this caused an issue with the Pinball legs going into the floor on one side.  Steely helped me separate the 4 legs from 3rdAxis cabinet legs model into singles in order to fix this issue. (If anyone wants them I can make them available).

 

Ideally, a room could be made and textured (with baked in lighting) in some 3rd Party software, and everything could be imported and set on a 6 degree angle at once.  Unfortunately, I am not familiar with any 3D modelling programs, and I cant even model a stickman with clay.

 

I am having fun messing around with this stuff, and it has been good for my leg recovery (getting up and down from my pc to put on my headset 1000 times per day).  I know full well what my limitations are, and I am REALLY looking forward to seeing what some of the pros start doing with these rooms.

 

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to bringing VPVR this far, in such short time.  Although trying to make 3D spaces in a 2D editor can be frustrating sometimes.. I'm having a blast with all of this.

Edited by Rawd, 30 January 2020 - 09:30 PM.

[gear323]

Here is a little VPX VR Video with Funhouse showing ramps at different distances and gameplay while standing in front of a cabinet. For those that have not yet tried VR but are reading here

https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be

 

 

Be sure to select 1080P in the YouTube settings  

Edited by gear323, 31 January 2020 - 04:23 AM.

[Ben Logan]

Fantastic. Wrd’s tables are such a gift. Great room. Is the playfield lighting linked to the room lighting? Pretty neat. Dynamic.

[gear323]

Fantastic. Wrd’s tables are such a gift. Great room. Is the playfield lighting linked to the room lighting? Pretty neat. Dynamic.

 

It is.  It is going to be super amazing to see what more of the pros here eventually do with the VR rooms once they get VR headsets.  I'm sure eventually almost everyone will be playing this way especially as computer hardware gets better and VR headsets get better.   My guess is one day we will have all sorts of light shows in the room and strobe lights toppers etc configurable with F6 or with the script directly just like we do with other mods. 

I myself just did whatever I could to chip in with my limited skills to help get things rolling with VR but I will mostly be sitting on the sidelines and just playing the releases once many of the table developers start making the tables in VR Rooms themselves as the VR rooms I could create from scratch would be very basic. Thanks again to 3rdAxis for letting us use your super cool VR room template for these conversions!!

 

Another really good VR Room example is that room Rawd made for Space Station.  It is super awesome (and I recommend that everyone with VPX VR and a VR headset try it) but it is also probably just a glimpse of what we will eventually see in the coming years.    Exciting times for VP or just pinball in general!  

Edited by gear323, 31 January 2020 - 06:48 AM.

[Rawnei]

Ideally, a room could be made and textured (with baked in lighting) in some 3rd Party software, and everything could be imported and set on a 6 degree angle at once.  Unfortunately, I am not familiar with any 3D modelling programs, and I cant even model a stickman with clay.

I used to do a lot of 3D graphics in 3DSMAX many years ago (which I imagined has improved a lot over the years also), there are lots of video tutorials and I think if you would start to dabble in it and learn you would very quickly find that it's much easier to create things in a fully fledged 3D modelling tool than in VP editor.

[Ben Logan]

I'm curious as to how you guys are adding cabinets to VPVR tables. How do you do it?

[Rawd]

I'm curious as to how you guys are adding cabinets to VPVR tables. How do you do it?

I'm using the parts/models that 3rdAxis provided in his room.   For TS, I had to reshape some things and make new sidewalls/backbox for an EM.

Edited by Rawd, 31 January 2020 - 06:09 PM.

[cyberpez]

Here is a little VPX VR Video with Funhouse showing ramps at different distances and gameplay while standing in front of a cabinet. For those that have not yet tried VR but are reading here

https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be

 

 

Be sure to select 1080P in the YouTube settings  

 

 

Great video!!!!  Makes me glad I added the circuit board to the backside of the mirror.  Except now I notice all of the missing (normally hidden) switches and bulb balases and things...... it drives me a little crazy hehe.  

 

Can't wait to pick up a headset of my own, really great stuff guys keep it up!!!!!!

[WilsonB]

Here is a little VPX VR Video with Funhouse showing ramps at different distances and gameplay while standing in front of a cabinet. For those that have not yet tried VR but are reading here

https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be

 

 

Be sure to select 1080P in the YouTube settings  

Great job on helping the VR section of this long anticipated table..! I especially appreciate the "real" Metal look, wood textures of the insides, and the light up reflections. That is something not as coming in the past. Im sure that had some Frame costs, but worth it.. Systems are only getting more powerful and upgraded...  

 

Now, we just need to figure out how to tone down the hallow/ glow on some objects like the ceiling dome lights, chair reflection and some table LED's.. This problem is extreme in AC-DC tables..

Edited by WilsonB, 31 January 2020 - 07:57 PM.

[WilsonB]

 

 

Which Oculus do you have? Anything else works with SteamVR?

oculus CV1. My entire VR library is working on steam. I'm also on up to date Windows 10. Both oculus and steamvr are also up to date.

 

 

Make sure you close vp every time after you exit the gameplay. For some reason, in some cases the headset will remain black unless you restart vp before new table launch.

 

I tried both closing the entire VPVR and restarting it without loading a table, then I forcibly closed it through task manager to no avail and restarted it. I also tried restarting the computer and running VP without loading any tables, closing out of it, reopening it and still it's not transmitting the video. 

 

Edit: I also tried VR View option on steamVR to mirror whats trying to be sent to the HMD and it is completely black when running vpvr however, as previously stated the built in game mirror inside vpvr displays the room and table.

 

 

Same rig here, so trying to help you with my settings:

 

1. Make sure you have VR on "autodetect" or "enabled". Just check it by opening VPVR without starting table, then - preferences - bottom right section "VR autodetect".

 

2. I have also VPVR Preview disabled in settings. It gives better performance and less issues with freezy's DLL

 

3. I have everything in Steam VR Version 1.9.16 on default

 

 

So there are two ways to start tables in VR:

 

a) When you have "VR autodetect" on, it should be enough to just open VPVR and select a table. Oculus software will launch by itself and SteamVR (without the steam browser) will launch after confirming the pop-uo in VPVR which comes up automatically.

 When you put your Headset on, you should be able to see the "Star-Sky" Steam "Room" and then the table in VR immediately

 

b) you have oculus software open. You open steam and start manually Steam VR in upper right corner. You should be able to see the "Star-Sky" Steam "Room.

Launch VPVR and table manually.

 

 

So question: do you see the star-sky room (by default it is enabled) when SteamVR is running?

Does the headset turn black once you run VPVR with table or when exactly?

And maybe a very dumb question, but is VPX non VR installed and running properly?

 

Do you see the Steam Menu when a VR table is loaded? You have to make it disappear (by pressing menu button) to see the VR table proberly

 

If this all does not help i have no clue whats going on with your system.

 

These are good / useful tips.. Do you mind posting your experience with them here;

 

https://www.facebook...22550378241713/

 

 

Thanks

[Rawd]

 

Now, we just need to figure out how to tone down the hallow/ glow on some objects like the ceiling dome lights, chair reflection and some table LED's.. This problem is extreme in AC-DC tables..

 

Try:  Table properties / Lighting / Bloom strength.

[fwiler]

I've got a pin cab and kinda know my way around VPX, but not VR.  So I'm trying to set this up on my desktop instead of my cab.  This isn't as easy as it sounds, because of all the  different VR interfaces involved.

Took me forever to figure out how to even launch a game as that doesn't seem to be listed anywhere.

 

What I've been able to get to work-  Without headset on and launching from desktop- start Oculus home, then SteamVR, open VPinballX GL.  Open and Start table.  Then put headset on.

My issue was I was trying to figure out how to launch everything from a virtual desktop, which I guess is possible but near impossible for me to double click on something with controller.

 

Anyway,

Absolutely amazing!!!!!  I thought my pincab was the shit with all the toys.  This is way beyond that.

 

So my question-  Is there a better, easier way to launch pinball tables.  I'm used to a front end, so I thought maybe there's someway to launch VPinballX GL with a specific game and create a shortcut.  Put that shortcut into one of the VR homes.

 

And sense I only have one screen, how should I setup b2s backglass display?

 

EDIT:  I've tried associating .vpx files with the VPVR GL exe.  But just double clicking on a game doesn't seem to work for me.   I think I need a shortcut with some type of modifiers to the Target.

Edited by fwiler, 01 February 2020 - 03:21 AM.