308 replies to this topic

[tipoto]

Is this table gonna be angle independent? & will there be a desktop version?
EM Reels? I think that is cool, but it might be controversial. At least assuming there is no 4:3 version.

Especially considering how many people voted that Kurt stop doing rendered tables in favor of angle independent versions so that everybody could enjoy them. I certainly don't think a rendered table once in a while hurts anybody, but when one like this comes out & leaves all desktop users (the vast majority of VP users) in the dark, I don't know how well that is gonna go over with the masses, hopefully its OK. It was especially cab users that were voting for angle independent tables, so I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet.

The table looks amazing though, & I'm glad some new people are getting to see what goodness EM Reels can bring to a table after angle independent being nearly the only type released the past few years. For those that like the look of this table, make sure you check out Scapino's tables if you haven't already. Shows a lot of what has been done with reels in the past, even 8+ years ago, so this is certainly nothing new although its good to see it done in VP9. Some tables built using photo overlays & EM reels have also been done.

I wanted to answer to others posts, but I will answer to this one first.
So... No... It’s not an angle independent table and I don’t want to think now about converting it into a 4:3, just because I know that it will take about 4 months at least to convert it (because I’m slow) and it will depend on how tired I am to see this table .

Of course I checked the Scapino’s tables along with the ones using photo overlays and Scapino was probably my first inspiration to start building a table with EM reels.

I voted to the Kurt’s question a few weeks ago, and I am part of the small 9% who voted for the 16:9 Wide Screen Rendered.
2 reasons for that:
- I think Scapino enjoys more creating tables with EM reels than making an angle independent (just looking at what he did before)... And for me, if you have to spend your free time for something, it’s better to do it for something you really enjoy.
- Then, why a Wide Screen instead of a 4:3? Well this is more about a technical point that I discovered with EM reels. If you want to make sure the render will be as good as what you created on your 3D software, you need to make sure everyone will use the exact same resolution as yours. That way you are sure that 1 pixel in your 3d render = 1 pixel in the VP render. So if someday I convert my table into a desktop version, it will be a WS 16:9 table with 1920 x 1080 resolution.

It’s why my current table is probably and unfortunately the most restrictive table you can find... It works only in 16:9 Full Screen 1920 x 1080

And make sure that I didn’t even think that my table would maybe hurt anyone just because it exists, and just because not everyone will be able to play it ^^.
But actually it’s funny because I play only FS tables and I don’t have a cab at home, when I want to play, I turn one of my monitors and that’s it... And they are not one of those monitors which can be turned easily

This is my first table and it’s also a challenge for me, I just thought it would be fun to create it this way and it would improve my knowledge in modeling and lighting. I’m making this table 50% for me and 50% for the community, both of them are very important for me

By the way, later I think I will create another thread with all the rules to make an EM reels table, because before starting I found some rules that Scapino explained which were very helpful, but I discovered that there are others important rules and bugs to get around.

[tipoto]

Looking really sweet!!

I have a question, well actually two questions.

1. On the real T2 games I have played (and I have played more than I'd like to admit), when you are shooting the hunter ship and there are two targets lit, you can hit them both in one shot if the lit targets are both next to each other and you get it just right so that the ball hits them both. Once you get really good, you can do it almost every time. On all of the T2 VP tables I have played so far this is not possible. . Any chance this will work on this table in the current version or in the future?

2. When you shoot the Hunter targets with the gun, the hunter ship shakes just a slight bit due to the impact of the ball on the targets. Is it possible to make the hunter ship in VP shake ever so slightly when the targets are hit? I'm thinking that would also help make it feel more real. Is it even possible to do in VP, if so, would it be easy to do or would it be a big task? You can see an exaggerated hunter shake from Steve Ritchie himself when he bumps the hunter with his hand in the video below. Just Fast Forward to 4:20. Note that it does not shake near that much when shooting the targets but it does shake

Actually, the cannon is my next task! Currently it works by the script but I didn’t create the animation, so we don’t have any visual when we are shooting. It’s also why I didn’t release a beta yet, it’s the main feature of this table and it’s important to have it to really enjoy playing this table.

But your suggestions are really interesting!

For point 1 I will take a look at it and try to make it possible, I don’t think it should be a problem, but we never know

For point 2, I checked the video and it’s not clear in the part 1, but if you take a look at the second video (part2) around 0:53, we can see the HKS moving:
So you’re right. But I can’t say now if I will do it or not, because the HKS is big in the table and it would be necessary to use a lot of textures just to make it animated with the different cases (lights on, lights off...), so I prefer to wait to be done with all the indispensable graphics first, then if the frame rate is still good, I could add it
Technically I don’t think that it would be too complicated.

Edited by tipoto, 23 June 2011 - 08:37 AM.

[StrawberryPrincess]

..........................

Edited by StrawberryPrincess, 09 October 2011 - 06:13 AM.

[tipoto]

It certainly looks impressive. I hope it plays on my crappy pc.

Actually I’m pretty surprised that the table looks "lite" for now, maybe thanks to the fact that everything is sliced (there are no texture bigger that 1024 x 1024). But maybe it won’t be the same story once the cannon will be animated and when all the lights will be working

Btw, I love your work and I’m really impressed by your creations! And on top of that, you are fast!

[lettuce]

Is this table gonna be angle independent? & will there be a desktop version?
EM Reels? I think that is cool, but it might be controversial. At least assuming there is no 4:3 version.

Especially considering how many people voted that Kurt stop doing rendered tables in favor of angle independent versions so that everybody could enjoy them. I certainly don't think a rendered table once in a while hurts anybody, but when one like this comes out & leaves all desktop users (the vast majority of VP users) in the dark, I don't know how well that is gonna go over with the masses, hopefully its OK. It was especially cab users that were voting for angle independent tables, so I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet.

The table looks amazing though, & I'm glad some new people are getting to see what goodness EM Reels can bring to a table after angle independent being nearly the only type released the past few years. For those that like the look of this table, make sure you check out Scapino's tables if you haven't already. Shows a lot of what has been done with reels in the past, even 8+ years ago, so this is certainly nothing new although its good to see it done in VP9. Some tables built using photo overlays & EM reels have also been done.

So what, just because members arent able to play this table tipoto shouldnt bother making or releasing this table or any other table he may decided to make in the future?, if so thats quite a narrow minded view!! There are loads of tables that have been made for just desktop use that havent been converted over to FS, and not too many people complain about that, but its not ok if its the other way around??

The fact of the matter is 99% of desktop users have a rotary device on their monitors so the screen can be rotated enabling them so they CAN play and enjoy this table if they really wanted to!

This table looks fantastic and bring the reality of VP one step closer to real life...as it looks soooo real. This sort of progress shouldnt be frowned upon, and the amount of hours tipoto has put into this, he would have to do the same all over again to create a 4:3 version as tipoto is obviously a FS user he is going to be making a table that fits his needs

Edited by lettuce, 23 June 2011 - 05:53 PM.

[rob046]

Of course I checked the Scapino’s tables along with the ones using photo overlays and Scapino was probably my first inspiration to start building a table with EM reels.

I voted to the Kurt’s question a few weeks ago, and I am part of the small 9% who voted for the 16:9 Wide Screen Rendered.
2 reasons for that:
- I think Scapino enjoys more creating tables with EM reels than making an angle independent (just looking at what he did before)... And for me, if you have to spend your free time for something, it’s better to do it for something you really enjoy.
- Then, why a Wide Screen instead of a 4:3? Well this is more about a technical point that I discovered with EM reels. If you want to make sure the render will be as good as what you created on your 3D software, you need to make sure everyone will use the exact same resolution as yours. That way you are sure that 1 pixel in your 3d render = 1 pixel in the VP render. So if someday I convert my table into a desktop version, it will be a WS 16:9 table with 1920 x 1080 resolution.

It’s why my current table is probably and unfortunately the most restrictive table you can find... It works only in 16:9 Full Screen 1920 x 1080

And make sure that I didn’t even think that my table would maybe hurt anyone just because it exists, and just because not everyone will be able to play it ^^.
But actually it’s funny because I play only FS tables and I don’t have a cab at home, when I want to play, I turn one of my monitors and that’s it... And they are not one of those monitors which can be turned easily

This is my first table and it’s also a challenge for me, I just thought it would be fun to create it this way and it would improve my knowledge in modeling and lighting. I’m making this table 50% for me and 50% for the community, both of them are very important for me

By the way, later I think I will create another thread with all the rules to make an EM reels table, because before starting I found some rules that Scapino explained which were very helpful, but I discovered that there are others important rules and bugs to get around.

I also voted that he keep doing EM Reel tables, for 4:3 (because at 4:3 nobody is left out), but we were certainly in the minority. I voted that way because I've also built tables in the past using this method but with photos & photoshop, so I am a fan of it. I also built some hybrid's. The one table I made I don't even share here, because of the complaints on EM Reels. Plus I wanted to get the table updated to VP9 anyhow before possibly sharing again, but its an older table so I'll probably just rebuilt it without EM reels.

Not sure that I'll be doing much in the future using EM Reels just because VP has come a long way as far as building options. We even got transparent ramps now! Plus anything I've done with reels pales in comparison to what you & Kurt have done with all the rendering. Technically might use similar methods, but its really not the same thing. What you guys do is more of a creative art piece & I can only imagine how time consuming it is to render all this stuff in 3D. I've used reels in the past more cuz I had crappy resources & was simply the best option at the time (like 7+ years ago), back when nobody cared if a table was angle independent or not.

I kinda wish Kurt posted here more often, I'm sure he would be interested in this. If I'm not mistaken, he made the 1st ever cabinet EM Reel table, years ago, for ultrapin. Yet he also had a 4:3 version for the masses, so maybe he might know something to make conversion to 4:3 simpler? However, I have a feeling there is no easy way to do it without creating all new images & adjusting all reels (the table itself underneath would still be good though).

I kinda miss Kurt's rendered tables. But you see what JP does without any reels, & its easy to understand why people are OK with ditching the reel method. Reels can still do things that VP can't though. Your screenshot illustrates exactly what those things are.
Yet, as I'm sure you've found out, reels also have drawbacks & issues of their own. I'm curious to see if VP9 has fixed some of the issues, but I'm sure it is still not an exact science. For the most part though, I think the good outweighs the bad for those willing to take the time to build a rendered or reeled table.
I wish I had a cab to be able to try this thing when released, but I can't complain. I do still have all of Kurt's rendered tables, also there are some very good 4:3 versions of T2 already out there.
Best of luck to you.

[gear323]

Looking really sweet!!

I have a question, well actually two questions.

1. On the real T2 games I have played (and I have played more than I'd like to admit), when you are shooting the hunter ship and there are two targets lit, you can hit them both in one shot if the lit targets are both next to each other and you get it just right so that the ball hits them both. Once you get really good, you can do it almost every time. On all of the T2 VP tables I have played so far this is not possible. . Any chance this will work on this table in the current version or in the future?

2. When you shoot the Hunter targets with the gun, the hunter ship shakes just a slight bit due to the impact of the ball on the targets. Is it possible to make the hunter ship in VP shake ever so slightly when the targets are hit? I'm thinking that would also help make it feel more real. Is it even possible to do in VP, if so, would it be easy to do or would it be a big task? You can see an exaggerated hunter shake from Steve Ritchie himself when he bumps the hunter with his hand in the video below. Just Fast Forward to 4:20. Note that it does not shake near that much when shooting the targets but it does shake

Actually, the cannon is my next task! Currently it works by the script but I didn’t create the animation, so we don’t have any visual when we are shooting. It’s also why I didn’t release a beta yet, it’s the main feature of this table and it’s important to have it to really enjoy playing this table.

But your suggestions are really interesting!

For point 1 I will take a look at it and try to make it possible, I don’t think it should be a problem, but we never know

For point 2, I checked the video and it’s not clear in the part 1, but if you take a look at the second video (part2) around 0:53, we can see the HKS moving:
So you’re right. But I can’t say now if I will do it or not, because the HKS is big in the table and it would be necessary to use a lot of textures just to make it animated with the different cases (lights on, lights off...), so I prefer to wait to be done with all the indispensable graphics first, then if the frame rate is still good, I could add it
Technically I don’t think that it would be too complicated.

Hi Tipoto,

Thanks for not only reading my post but also for watching the video, finding a better example (in part2), and replying to my questions!

That part 2 video is perfect. Like I said in my other post, when Steve hits it with his hand the HKS moves much more than when the targets are hit by the ball. Both vids show the the direction of the movement if the shaking very well... I bet many cab table authors could add more realism to the tables just by adding a little shaking to plastic parts when they are hit. Many of these parts do move some on the real tables. Seems like these types of visual improvements would be good for a release 2 update though.

I really hope you are able to fix the double target issue since that missing ability really changes the gameplay. Thanks for taking a look at it.


Lastly,
I'm a T2 pinball junkie and would love to test this thing if you would like more feedback. I also have a real T2 at a bowling alley near my house that I can compare to. I double checked how the HKS shakes a few hours ago on my way home from work..


James

Edited by gear323, 24 June 2011 - 12:39 AM.

[FreeMason]

Very impressive ! Is it possible to post a better pic of the table running in a cabinet? Maybe a movie, that would be awesome!

I hope this raises the bar for every table that is released! Because this quality is insane! Maybe you should have a donation button

[The Loafer]

Sometimes, not everything can be done for everyone; an author certainly has the right to do a table the way he wants and in my VERY humble and personal opinion, although I know the intent isn't to badger, it seems this effort to "equalize" keeps cropping up too often in any thread that has a table or release that isn't aimed at the average VP user. I'm pretty sure the OP understands his effort may not be appreciated by most users but if his goal is to make the best looking VP table that would create a "wow" factor on a pincab, then to do that, unfortunately, sacrifices are made.

Keep in mind, I don't have a pincab, at least not yet and not for a while, but work like this sure is a motivator; in the same sense of adding features to a table or VP means we sometimes may feel we need better hardware... Up to us to decide if we absolutely need to play these one or two tables.

Anyway, everyone's allowed their opinion, but I just seem to see this trend a little too often, my 2 cents worth.

[gear323]

Cab or no cab, it's my opinion that the best way to play VP is with a minimum of two monitors. The table in 1080P and the animated backglass on the second monitor. My monitor does not rotate, but as long as you have one 16:9 monitor it is easy to just prop it up on its side when you play .

If you have the room and the money for a cab and can go the cab with 3 monitors well then more power to you! I know there are still some people with 4:3 monitors out there but I have to assume most people now have a 16:9 monitor so they can play this table.

Looking great Tipoto!!

Edited by gear323, 25 June 2011 - 07:38 PM.

[Slydog43]

Any new news on this awesome looking table? Really cant wait to see it in my cab.

[tipoto]

Sorry, I didn't post anything for awhile. I'm even slower that what I thought !

Everything takes more time that what I was expecting.
I spent days to adjust the game-play with BFG_Brutal and Gear323 and it's not even completely done, but very close. The table won't be really adjustable by yourself, so I'm doing my best to get the best game-play possible. Fortunately there are a lot of videos on the Internet that I can use as reference

The cannon is done and works perfectly, it was one of the biggest technical challenge on this table. Tonight I will upload something to show you

I'm now working on another big challenge, which are the flashers... I will try to use a mixed technique between what Requlem discovered (animated ramps) and my own stuffs, but each single flasher is different so I will work on the case by case basis. Hopefully all of the flashers will be doable the way I want!

[tipoto]

UPDATE!

Youtube video (this is not a video capture form VP but it's exactly like that during the game):


Here are VP screenshots:


In the 3D software:

[numiah]

Simply amazing !
It's a long wait till release, but more than worth it !

[lettuce]

This just looks outstanding tipoto, and just gets better and better. Its just a shame every table cant be made this way from now on....trouble is it just takes soooo damn long to make something this good looking!!

[NicToria]

Hang in there..... It looks like a work of art... No reason to skimp and rush now..... thanks for all the hard work and effort... Peace

[gStAv]

Oh my holy...! Looks awesome!! My hea..aart.....

[Slydog43]

Wow, this looks like the game to show new people who come over and ask what that pinball cabinet is in my livingroom. Cant wait, its so sad I check this thread almost daily.

[tipoto]

UPDATE...



This is an animated PNG (2 images), if you don't see the animation it's because your browser can't play it! If you have the last Firefox it should work, but with IE, I'm not sure...

So, these last 3 weeks I worked on the Slingshots Flashers, the Printscreen shows the right one but the left one is done as well.
For this screenshot I created an invisible wall right under the transparent plastic in order to lock one ball and show you that even when the flasher is on, the transparency is still working!
Those flashers were very complicated to do because I had to create the animation for each single object and light with the flasher on and the flasher off (including flippers, slingshots, triggers and lights). On top of that, I put a droppable animated ramp with a subtle white glow to make the effect more realistic.

If you don't see the animation, here are the 2 images separated:

[Darkfall]

This is definitely going to be the table to show off a cabinet to someone who's never seen one before - the "gold standard" for visuals. I'm really looking forward to this one.