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The VP 10.7 beta thread


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#1181 Outhere

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Posted 23 January 2021 - 05:57 PM

 

Hey guys, first time install here. I'm following Terry's excellent "Start Here" video (thanks Terry!) and all is good up until this step at 18:54

 

"And now we are going to update all these files",

 

where he overwrites the Release files with the BETA files (At the time of the video is was 10.6 Beta. However, the Nailbuster wiki page now says:

 

DO NOT USE VPX 10.7 beta files yet!!! Reports of too many issues and its still a WIP.

 
So, should I just skip that step in the video and move on to next or is it ok by now (I understand the wiki is more up to date than the video since it was recorded Aug 2019)
Thanks in advance. Anxious to get started in this hobby!
- s

 

Yes videos become outdated he is referring to the latest Beta 10.6 not 10.7, So go with 10.6.1 final
More info - https://www.vpforums...982#entry330264
 


Edited by Outhere, 23 January 2021 - 05:57 PM.


#1182 TerryRed

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Posted 23 January 2021 - 08:14 PM

As all my videos and written guides tell you.... the wiki / written guides I refer to and show you in my videos are always more up to date, and you follow what they say over the video.

 

VPX betas are more for testing for the devs and authors to work with until they get to a point where they can be recommended it for the mass users out there.

 

I'm sure Toxie and Fuzzel would agree that VPX 10.7 beta isn't quite ready for the regular user / player... at least not yet. (please correct me if I'm wrong there guys).


Edited by TerryRed, 23 January 2021 - 08:20 PM.


#1183 wiesshund

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Posted 23 January 2021 - 08:31 PM

I use the beta exclusively, but for some, it may not work as well, it is still beta after all
But you do not have to make a hard choice

 

rename visual pinballX.exe to visual pinballX 10.6.1.exe
then install the 10.7 beta, if it does not work out for you, rename visual pinballX.exe to like visual pinballX 10.7 beta.exe and rename the 10.6.1 back
and you are back to 10.6.1 with the added benefit of updated scripts and an updated bass.dll(sound) and image dll.

 

just do not edit tables in 10.7 unless you make copies 1st, as the tables will not be fully compatible with 10.6
they will run and play, but textures are done differently and you wont see any.


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#1184 kiwi

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Posted 27 January 2021 - 05:39 PM

I did not notice before because I have always used the native resolution 16/10 of the screen,

the lights used in the backglass do not adapt in height as the resolution changes.

 

On the left the resolution 16/10, on the right 16/9 and you can see that the lights are not inside the frame.

 

Is it possible to have an option to adapt the lights also in height, as the resolution varies?

 

souvenir.png



#1185 fuzzel

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Posted 27 January 2021 - 06:20 PM

I did not notice before because I have always used the native resolution 16/10 of the screen,

the lights used in the backglass do not adapt in height as the resolution changes.

 

On the left the resolution 16/10, on the right 16/9 and you can see that the lights are not inside the frame.

 

Is it possible to have an option to adapt the lights also in height, as the resolution varies?

 

souvenir.png

What are your video settings for the two resolutions? There might be a bug if you don't use fullscreen mode so the window isn't shown at the top left corner of your screen.



#1186 kiwi

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Posted 27 January 2021 - 06:47 PM

 

I did not notice before because I have always used the native resolution 16/10 of the screen,

the lights used in the backglass do not adapt in height as the resolution changes.

 

On the left the resolution 16/10, on the right 16/9 and you can see that the lights are not inside the frame.

 

Is it possible to have an option to adapt the lights also in height, as the resolution varies?

 

souvenir.png

What are your video settings for the two resolutions? There might be a bug if you don't use fullscreen mode so the window isn't shown at the top left corner of your screen.

 

On the left the full screen mode 1920x1200, on the right no full screen 1920x1080, the PC and the screen are the same.

 

So who uses full screen mode, correctly displays lights even at resolutions other than mine?



#1187 fuzzel

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Posted 27 January 2021 - 08:29 PM

 

What are your video settings for the two resolutions? There might be a bug if you don't use fullscreen mode so the window isn't shown at the top left corner of your screen.

 

 

 

On the left the full screen mode 1920x1200, on the right no full screen 1920x1080, the PC and the screen are the same.

 

So who uses full screen mode, correctly displays lights even at resolutions other than mine?

 

Yes I think that's the bug I was talking about. Please try with the next update...



#1188 Robsoie

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Posted 31 January 2021 - 11:11 AM

On VPX i recently ran into a table ( the Stern 24 hours on Vpinball.com )  on which VPX had a 1 second long heavy stutter (freezing VPX visuals for 1 second) on a specific section right when the ball exit the launch ramp and goes to hit the 3 bumpers near the exit, a problem that strangely happened only once during a game , the first time the ball enter that section.

 

It was very odd because no setting change would fix that, i even reduced all the textures of the table by 50%  and optimised their png compression, but still it didn't changed anything (out of the table loading much faster obviously).

 

Then looking carefully at what could happen, i noticed that when the ball enter that section a very lot of lights are flashing all around the table at the same time, but as said the sutter only happen once during a game when the ball trigger this the first time.

To test if the problem was caused by the light show, i then edited the table script and started to remove a few lamps from the Sub UpdateLamps() section of the script, then played the table and noticed the stutter was a lot shorter, i removed more of those lamps in the script and managed to make the sttuter unnoticable.

 

A bit more curious, i decided to try the original VP9 version of the table (as from my understanding the VPX one is ported from it and adapted to VPX) and noticed that despite the same intense light show all around when the ball hit the 3 bumpers for the first time, the table never stutter.

I understand that the rendering engine of VPX is different from VP9 as VP9 using pictures for the lighting change.

 

So i am wondering if there's a problem of light/shadow map caching in VPX.

Something i suspect more after having played too a bunch of the recent SLAMT1LT tables on Future Pinball (and BAM), those tables have much more intense and busy light shows than any VPX tables i played, and they have 0 stuttering.

But the first time (happens only the first time as it's saved for future replay) Future Pinball (BAM) load a table it will takes a long time (much longer than Visual Pinball) to cache all the various shadow/light maps , resulting in the gameplay never stuttering when there's tons of lights flashing all around the table while the ball moves.

 

Could it be possible to code this kind of caching in VPX to fix the stutter situation on some very busy tables ?

Hello

 

I come back to this because i accidentally ran into the real cause of this specific problem.

It's not window defender and it's not the table scripting , in fact the real source of this problem is the VPX graphic/video option "Texture Compression (Performance)"

 

Because in all games i have this feature usually helps a bit, by habit i had enabled it since the beginning in VPX (and so in the 10.7 beta i am using) .

Randomly toying with various settings while editing some table for my own convenience, at some point i may have accidentally disabled "Texture Compression (Performance)" and after loading the default (not my edited version in which i had removed some part of the script) table "24" i was very surprised to see it playing so incredibly smoothly , maybe even better than the edited version i did of it.

 

After wondering if there was some odd window 10 update that fixed things, i started checking my VPX setting and noticed "Texture Compression (Performance)" was not checked, so i checked it and after relaunching the original "24" , the stutter/lag problem was there again.

Went back to uncheck the option again, and bingo : it was that because "24" was again incredibly smooth. 

 

If i would have a guess , having no idea of the code, maybe not all the texture are compressed when VPX load a table, some of the texture that may only appear during gameplay (when an event play and lead to a texture being changed) , maybe VPX try to compress the new coming texture "in the fly", generating this stutter-like annoyance ?

 

Whatever is the reason, i thought it was a good idea to report this, in case other people run into those unexplainable stutter.



#1189 wiesshund

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Posted 31 January 2021 - 11:49 AM

not much need to enable texture compression, unless you are using a low end integrated video with a small amount of available memory

i have not seen any stutter come from it, but it does make for a horrendously long load time

even on my laptop, i have not so far run across a table where it was of any actual benefit


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#1190 Robsoie

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Posted 01 February 2021 - 11:55 AM

After reading your post, i checked with other tables, and while i thought they were loading fast before, now it load even faster with "Texture Compression (Performance)" unchecked !

Wow, i had no idea this option was making everything (performance and loading time) actually worse.

 

Maybe the wording "performance" should just be removed from the option menu because in VPX what i see is that it create micro visual stutters when new textures are loaded by tables events in the fly, and as a lot of textures can be loaded during an event, those micro visual stutter can add up and lead to longer visual sttuter (and as those stutter are only visual, the ball still move but you don't see it, easy to get it into the drain without knowing).

 

Hmm, now i'll have to try in other games, i always had that kind of option checked by habit for dozen of year.


Edited by Robsoie, 01 February 2021 - 11:56 AM.


#1191 wiesshund

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Posted 01 February 2021 - 06:00 PM

After reading your post, i checked with other tables, and while i thought they were loading fast before, now it load even faster with "Texture Compression (Performance)" unchecked !

Wow, i had no idea this option was making everything (performance and loading time) actually worse.

 

Maybe the wording "performance" should just be removed from the option menu because in VPX what i see is that it create micro visual stutters when new textures are loaded by tables events in the fly, and as a lot of textures can be loaded during an event, those micro visual stutter can add up and lead to longer visual sttuter (and as those stutter are only visual, the ball still move but you don't see it, easy to get it into the drain without knowing).

 

Hmm, now i'll have to try in other games, i always had that kind of option checked by habit for dozen of year.

 

If you have something that has access to like no good amount of video memory, then it is useful
Onboard video, and you got a game that wants to dump 2+ Gigs worth of textures into vram or something, and you dont have that even in shared memory, then it's useful.

VPX, i have not seen myself, any tables that use any great amount of vram, even 4k tables, texture memory use is kind of minimal in the grand scheme of things.
So the compression just does not give anything back, for the downsides of using it.

 

Looking around, the one machine i have that it might actually be of use on, is incapable of running it anyways.
At best, it might run VP8.

 

Not sure off hand, what hardware that is capable of running VPX 10.6.1, would also suffer from texture thrashing due to low to no texture memory available.
Most everything i can think of, has at least that much memory available even in shared form, unless someone goes really bonkers with a stack of 8k textures
while making a table.


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#1192 Robsoie

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Posted 02 February 2021 - 07:23 PM

Interestingly i noticed i also had Future Pinball/BAM texture compression option enabled, while i never had any performance/stutter issue in any of the FP/BAM tables i play with, loading times could sometime be long.

After disabling this texture compression, loading time got noticably faster, performance is still great.  

 

So maybe as you say this option is a benefit only to ancient hardware, though i'm not sure it's worth playing VPX with it enabled if it is going to lead into those super annoying visual stutters and longer loading time. Better play with VP9 then if you don't have the hardware for VPX as VP9 tables are still a lot of fun to play with.



#1193 wiesshund

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Posted 02 February 2021 - 11:26 PM

On older hardware, many VP9 tables both play and look great

 

Long as you dont poke VPX on better hardware beside them, things seem and look fine.

At the time the option was put in VPX, the gap between the hardware was probably smaller and so the option made more sense


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#1194 kiwi

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Posted 05 February 2021 - 08:46 AM

This is an already reported bug and probably not completely fixed,

I noticed it in VPX6 and also in VPX7 Beta, the "Alpha Mask" value is transferred from one image to another when deleting images in the Image Manager.

 

For example: take the Example Table, go to the Image Manager and delete the ColorGradeLUT256x16_Sepia,

the value of the 128 alpha mask of the ColorGradeLUT256x16_ConSat image is transferred to the "CustomBlackTip" which previously had value 1.



#1195 fuzzel

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Posted 05 February 2021 - 08:29 PM

rev4388 is up:

 

- add reset player window button to the video preferences (@Kiwi try the new reset button to reset your window position maybe that fixes your issue?)
- ability to do a rough profiling of the table loading. If a file 'Profile.txt' exists in the same directory as VPX, then statistics for the loaded tables will be appended
- also do not trigger editor update if file was directly selected for play on startup
- add automatic/table-matching .VPP loading, similar to .POV/.VBS


#1196 wiesshund

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Posted 05 February 2021 - 09:06 PM

Is it valentines day alread?


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#1197 Greynurse

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Posted 06 February 2021 - 01:32 AM

Currently when pausing the game, the description contents of the table info is displayed on the main screen. It is, however, slightly occluded by the options menu. Is it possible to have the description field display down the left side of the menu and the rules field display down the right side. That way, the game rules can easily be viewed in-game.

 

Cheers,

 

Nursie



#1198 wiesshund

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Posted 06 February 2021 - 02:12 AM

Currently when pausing the game, the description contents of the table info is displayed on the main screen. It is, however, slightly occluded by the options menu. Is it possible to have the description field display down the left side of the menu and the rules field display down the right side. That way, the game rules can easily be viewed in-game.

 

Cheers,

 

Nursie

Only happens in windowed mode

in exclusive fullscreen there is no dialog blocking

If we could drag the dialog box in windowed mode, would be nice


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#1199 kiwi

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Posted 06 February 2021 - 11:37 AM

 

rev4388 is up:

 

- add reset player window button to the video preferences (@Kiwi try the new reset button to reset your window position maybe that fixes your issue?)

What does this refer to?

 

Because initially it worked, after trying about a dozen different resolutions, a problem that I reported some time ago has come back:

I select the 1920x1080 resolution, I close and reopen the video settings and find the resolution 1920x1200,

I close and reopen it again and I find Windowed 1920x1200, and the reset button doesn't work.

 

Backglass lights are not scaled properly at resolutions other than my monitor's native 16/10.



#1200 batch

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Posted 06 February 2021 - 07:40 PM

Thanks for all the work on layers :tup:


signature_24042026.jpg          DIRECT LINK TO MY TABLES http://www.vpforums....loads&mid=30858    

                                               LINK TO MY 204 BACKDROPS : Design Resources/ Main Resources/Table Templates/Table Resources/Backdrops for VPX Tables (DT 16/9)  2.0