166 replies to this topic

[The Loafer]

Well, for some Pincab users, they just don't play pc pinball on a desktop anymore, since there is a preference to play them on their pincab... And if you have the pincab its a no brainer. Plus they already have most of these tables working on their cabs, so to play PA on the desktop it would have to be way better than what we have to entice us away from the cab, which is already a pretty good experience. A lot of this has to do with the "feel" of playing pinball, which for many a pincab succeeds greatly, while a desktop comes up flat, so although physics could be improved, as perhaps the graphics, what about the experience? The view? Etc? I will buy it regardless because I believe if not enough people support them, then we (pincab owners) won't get the PA we want. As for initial pincab support, I believe there will be a portrait mode available, with a view like when playing on the iPad in portrait mode. That serves me just fine to start of. If they don't its ok, Rome was not built in a day.

[bent98]

fYI Rob, I wont buy it if it doesnt support FS

[kruge99]

fYI Rob, I wont buy it if it doesnt support FS

 

therein lies conundrum... if you don't buy it, the FS support might not be implemented in a future version.  Lack of PC adoption dictates what the future feature updates will be.  (not just adding more tables.)

 

 

Best Regards,

Todd.

[rob046]

Well, for some Pincab users, they just don't play pc pinball on a desktop anymore, since there is a preference to play them on their pincab... And if you have the pincab its a no brainer. Plus they already have most of these tables working on their cabs, so to play PA on the desktop it would have to be way better than what we have to entice us away from the cab, which is already a pretty good experience. A lot of this has to do with the "feel" of playing pinball, which for many a pincab succeeds greatly, while a desktop comes up flat, so although physics could be improved, as perhaps the graphics, what about the experience? The view? Etc? I will buy it regardless because I believe if not enough people support them, then we (pincab owners) won't get the PA we want. As for initial pincab support, I believe there will be a portrait mode available, with a view like when playing on the iPad in portrait mode. That serves me just fine to start of. If they don't its ok, Rome was not built in a day.

 

Right, so you agree that some cab users are probably getting a little jaded or a little too reliant on needing to be standing at a cab to enjoy a pinball sim?  & some people are saying they will boycott a great pinball product just if they don't cater to this small cab niche on a virtual pinball forum???  What BS & I can't believe how counter-intuitive that is.  Example, Zaccaria Pinball on the iPad.  I bought it the day it came out before even playing it, $3 sight unseen.  Once they improved a couple things, I dropped $30 more on it because I wanted to show them that their efforts will get rewarded through our support.  MANY people did what I did there, just by default, that is what you do in this community.  You support the things you want to see stick around & get better, you don't boycott them if they can't support your every desire, especially one that only caters to a very small portion of the vitual pinball community. 

 

That really angers me (btw, FYI I'm not talking about you, just venting at you I guess!).  I agree I think FS is a tough thing to approach for corporate gaming.  As somebody who works on FS in the editor, I know FS involves some guesswork & estimating.  It isn't an exact science.  People like Farsight might be looking for an exact science with this stuff.  Which is why a straight top-down view might be the way they go with this, or just give a little inclination.  If the PC version is a huge success, then yes maybe they can really dig into great cab support, but boycotting them surely won't help in this situation.  I really don't care if people play in FS or desktop, but damn it really does seem like some FS users have zero patience for anything not about to go directly into their cab.  & for all we know, maybe they will have great cab support day 1.  But if they show too much interest in FS, of course I'll have to boycott them.  JK:)

[Aurich]

I somehow fail to believe that some people won't buy the PC version if they don't have cab support.

 

I wouldn't. I know you cannot comprehend this, but to me playing pinball on a "PC" is worthless. Utterly uninterested. Wouldn't play if you gave it to me for free.

Right, so you agree that some cab users are probably getting a little jaded or a little too reliant on needing to be standing at a cab to enjoy a pinball sim?  & some people are saying they will boycott a great pinball product just if they don't cater to this small cab niPeople like Farsight might be looking for an exact science with this stuff. 

 

Wow, calm down. I'm not "boycotting" anything, I'm choosing to not buy a product that doesn't interest me.

[uberpinball]

Right, so you agree that some cab users are probably getting a little jaded or a little too reliant on needing to be standing at a cab to enjoy a pinball sim?  & some people are saying they will boycott a great pinball product just if they don't cater to this small cab niche on a virtual pinball forum???  

...

You support the things you want to see stick around & get better, you don't boycott them if they can't support your every desire, especially one that only caters to a very small portion of the vitual pinball community. 

 

Hmm...well this Virtual Pinball forum comes to you because of a guy who builds FS cabs and sells them as a business. This forum exists because of him. I'm not sure a 'small cab niche' is the right thing to say as it's much larger than you may think. Playing VP on a desktop is no where close to a actual FS cab, it just isn't.

 

I wouldn't boycott anything, i agree, but i sure won't buy any more of Pinball Arcade's tables as I've migrated away from playing pinball on my iPad and play on my own FS cab.

 

I'll run VP and keep upgrading my tables as these awesome authors here keep pushing the technology. Until Farsight comes up with a complete FS solution which includes better physics, complete backglass solutions, full DMD support, and DOES NOT require a internet connection to update my FS cab with content...i won't be a customer.

[TedB]

I have the utmost respect for your opinion regarding the FS vp desktop debate Rob, and I agree that the community shouldn't neglect the desktop users. Usually people start as desktop users (like I did) and may or may not like to have the FS/Cab experience after a while.  I am only interested in cab/FS play though and I also prefer to support open source development. I will gladly spend 100 Euro or more on a kickstarter for a superb open source product that can be improved in time and adjusted to my/our liking. 

This is a non adjustable product and as I have understood also you have to install it through steam and be online with my cab? Both doesn't sound compelling to me.

I am not saying I will never buy it or will not support it ever, but it needs to be pretty much perfect to win me over. 

[The Loafer]

 
Right, so you agree that some cab users are probably getting a little jaded or a little too reliant on needing to be standing at a cab to enjoy a pinball sim?  & some people are saying they will boycott a great pinball product just if they don't cater to this small cab niche on a virtual pinball forum???  What BS & I can't believe how counter-intuitive that is.  Example, Zaccaria Pinball on the iPad.  I bought it the day it came out before even playing it, $3 sight unseen.  Once they improved a couple things, I dropped $30 more on it because I wanted to show them that their efforts will get rewarded through our support.  MANY people did what I did there, just by default, that is what you do in this community.  You support the things you want to see stick around & get better, you don't boycott them if they can't support your every desire, especially one that only caters to a very small portion of the vitual pinball community. 
 
That really angers me (btw, FYI I'm not talking about you, just venting at you I guess!).  I agree I think FS is a tough thing to approach for corporate gaming.  As somebody who works on FS in the editor, I know FS involves some guesswork & estimating.  It isn't an exact science.  People like Farsight might be looking for an exact science with this stuff.  Which is why a straight top-down view might be the way they go with this, or just give a little inclination.  If the PC version is a huge success, then yes maybe they can really dig into great cab support, but boycotting them surely won't help in this situation.  I really don't care if people play in FS or desktop, but damn it really does seem like some FS users have zero patience for anything not about to go directly into their cab.  & for all we know, maybe they will have great cab support day 1.  But if they show too much interest in FS, of course I'll have to boycott them.  JK:)

I agree with most of what you say but I think you are getting too hung up on the word "boycott". Although we are in agreement to support pretty much all good commercial efforts, the fact is not everyone has the purse strings open for something they may not use, and I refuse to map my personal belief as how it should be done. I think what we are doing is proper but that is for each of us to decide. Something that we should all remember is that many VP (yes and FP) users actually prefer their software of choice to pinball arcade, seriously, so I can see why there is a reluctance to support it even with FS support, so for them, it better be knocking their lights out. Then, and this is my own personal beef, you have people nowadays who have what I consider a devalued sense of what pinball is worth, not all their fault as casual gaming prices has lowered the expected value. I paid $40 for pinball dreams on the Amiga which had 4 tables... and I thought I was ripping THEM off , now people balk at paying 5 bucks for 2 tables on PA., ouch.

Prediction: no matter what Farsight do, watch out for the backlash on the shortcomings of the pc version, especially from the vp community. Why? "What do you mean I have to pay more for the pro version? I can't change the amount of balls without having the pro version? I can't customize the camera angle? X game has bugs, they still haven't fixed it? ". People see things very differently when there is a $ value... we are the exception not the norm with what some consider is our blind support. My point is, lack of true pincab support is not going to be the showstopper here to pinball arcade success.


To flip this around, I cannot speak for others but pinheads are notorious whiners who have an addictive nature towards pinball. I know I have said a bazillions times "no more" to something such as my classic gaming collection but I always go back and get some more. Maybe pc pinball arcade will be the same

[MTPPC]

If you are already playing VP on a pincab, it seems like a wasteful dream to buy a product you will never use in the hope of seeing some vaporware come to fruition. I have a limited amount of time to "game" and I want to spend every minute of it on my pincab. I had farsight's CFTBL on my android and I tried it once and removed it. I would never want to install steam on my pincab just like I don't participate in the apple ecosystem. I buy DRM-free downloads from amazon and would buy tables for my pincab if their quality and play far exceeded what is currently available. As it is, visual pinball far exceeds any other option (free, opensource, commercial, shrinkwrap). Future pinball comes in second and with hyperpin launching these simulated games, it will really take something special to jump over and pull away from the current state of the art.

[s1500]

There aren't that many people who have a pin cab invested, compared to the gaming public who is just fine playing tables in the desktop version. I cannot believe the level of crankiness and hatred towards a company that doesn't cater to a small percentage of gamers. It almost sounds like some would rather not have them release tables at all if there's no FS support. Not everyone can afford the time & money, or floor space for a pin cab. Don't look down on those who can't or don't wish to. 

 

It might come, it might not come. Who knows? Don't feel threatened if someone else(commercial or free) makes a FS cab game. You can still play FP or VP all you wish. 

 

I am reminded of the fanboy wars(some of them really derpy) on pinside in regards to Stern & Jersey Jack Pinball. 

[rob046]

Hmm...well this Virtual Pinball forum comes to you because of a guy who builds FS cabs and sells them as a business. This forum exists because of him. I'm not sure a 'small cab niche' is the right thing to say as it's much larger than you may think. Playing VP on a desktop is no where close to a actual FS cab, it just isn't.

 

I wouldn't boycott anything, i agree, but i sure won't buy any more of Pinball Arcade's tables as I've migrated away from playing pinball on my iPad and play on my own FS cab.

 

I'll run VP and keep upgrading my tables as these awesome authors here keep pushing the technology. Until Farsight comes up with a complete FS solution which includes better physics, complete backglass solutions, full DMD support, and DOES NOT require a internet connection to update my FS cab with content...i won't be a customer.

 

When you look at the numbers, cab users are an insanely small group compared to all the people buying pinball games on various platforms.  & don't get into telling people that anyone who doesn't have a cab is missing out.  No, they aren't.  Its the same tables no matter how you play them.  I argue desktop is better for various reasons.  But I won't get into all that since none of this is about desktop vs FS, so I'm not sure why you brought this up.

I simply said that I hoped cab users wouldn't refuse to buy this great product if there isn't good cab support.  Just hearing that people refuse to play on anything but their cabs damn near freaks me out with how cab dependent some people have gotten.  Are people really not playing the best pinball sim in the history of mankind, Pro Pinball, just because of no cab support?  & now the up & comer, Pinball Arcade might get the same treatment?  All the Littlewing pins?  Zen PInball?  Pinball FX2?  Zaccaria App?  You guys are really missing out as you keep your fingers crossed for Farsight cab support on the level of what VP offers, which may never happen.

I agree with most of what you say but I think you are getting too hung up on the word "boycott". Although we are in agreement to support pretty much all good commercial efforts, the fact is not everyone has the purse strings open for something they may not use, and I refuse to map my personal belief as how it should be done. I think what we are doing is proper but that is for each of us to decide. Something that we should all remember is that many VP (yes and FP) users actually prefer their software of choice to pinball arcade, seriously, so I can see why there is a reluctance to support it even with FS support, so for them, it better be knocking their lights out. Then, and this is my own personal beef, you have people nowadays who have what I consider a devalued sense of what pinball is worth, not all their fault as casual gaming prices has lowered the expected value. I paid $40 for pinball dreams on the Amiga which had 4 tables... and I thought I was ripping THEM off , now people balk at paying 5 bucks for 2 tables on PA., ouch.

Prediction: no matter what Farsight do, watch out for the backlash on the shortcomings of the pc version, especially from the vp community. Why? "What do you mean I have to pay more for the pro version? I can't change the amount of balls without having the pro version? I can't customize the camera angle? X game has bugs, they still haven't fixed it? ". People see things very differently when there is a $ value... we are the exception not the norm with what some consider is our blind support. My point is, lack of true pincab support is not going to be the showstopper here to pinball arcade success.


To flip this around, I cannot speak for others but pinheads are notorious whiners who have an addictive nature towards pinball. I know I have said a bazillions times "no more" to something such as my classic gaming collection but I always go back and get some more. Maybe pc pinball arcade will be the same

 

Um, well I would argue that anybody dropping many thousands on a cab do in fact have a few bucks to support a pinball title that could revolutionize the future of pinball as we know it.  That is kind of why I got annoyed here.  Or just the people who have been interested in seeing this, but then might bail without good cab support.  Which again nobody knows what they are gonna do here, but it might be save to assume they won't have cab support like VP does:)

[MTPPC]

I am reminded of the fanboy wars(some of them really derpy) on pinside in regards to Stern & Jersey Jack Pinball. 

And still WOZ is vaporware to this very day. Half a dozen prototypes does not make a product. And still some people will dump them deposits on thier Hobbit. I don't think there are many JJP fanbois left. If there are, I feel sorry for them.

[The Loafer]

Rob, people spent thousands over the years on ensuring their gaming pc to ensure it is top of the line. Many pc gamers buy a new $400+ GPU every two years to ensure they see all the bells and whistles. Nvidia and ATI sell tons of cards and yet... The pc market typically sells 10% in sales (with a few exceptions) compared to the console equivalent of most games. I think spending on hardware does not translate at all to spending on software. On further review, both our points don't explain properly the mind of the pc owner eheh but whatever, it's hardly exclusive to pc pinball fans. Still, you have often indicated the pincab market is a small one. If that is the case, then it should not be an impediment to the success of pc pinball arcade.

[uberpinball]

 
When you look at the numbers, cab users are an insanely small group compared to all the people buying pinball games on various platforms.  & don't get into telling people that anyone who doesn't have a cab is missing out.  No, they aren't.  Its the same tables no matter how you play them.  I argue desktop is better for various reasons.  But I won't get into all that since none of this is about desktop vs FS, so I'm not sure why you brought this up.
I simply said that I hoped cab users wouldn't refuse to buy this great product if there isn't good cab support.  Just hearing that people refuse to play on anything but their cabs damn near freaks me out with how cab dependent some people have gotten.  Are people really not playing the best pinball sim in the history of mankind, Pro Pinball, just because of no cab support?  & now the up & comer, Pinball Arcade might get the same treatment?  All the Littlewing pins?  Zen PInball?  Pinball FX2?  Zaccaria App?  You guys are really missing out as you keep your fingers crossed for Farsight cab support on the level of what VP offers, which may never:)

You seem to be delusional. Show me where a pinball has ever been anything but a standup and press two buttons to controll flippers. You may go back to the 40s with the table top pinballs and no flippers, but we aren't in the 40s.

In no way is desktop pinball better. Pressing keyboard buttons to interact with a pinball isn't anything close to what pinballs origins are. And really, I don't care about pinball simulators that give me tables that never were real tables, no interest to me. What is the point unless I'm trying to bring back memory's of pins I've played in the past, or ones that I've seen but never plays more then once.

I'm not missing out on anything. In 2013, I don't use my PC to play a desktop version of a mechanical standup pinball. I found the experience completely unsatisying as I wanted to nudge and slap the flipper buttons. The playfield was to small, nothing felt real.

So don't sell me on desktop pinball, I've moved past that long ago.

[open6l]

The mac version already has a top down full screen view but the graphics and lighting leave a LOT to be desired. I'm betting the first PC release will be a mirror of the mac version with better lighting and higher resolution. A proper cabinet build will probably follow some time later in the year.

Easy solution for you - don't buy it. There are many that will.

 

So don't sell me on desktop pinball, I've moved past that long ago.

[TedB]

I think the question is more fundamental then only 'is there a full featured cab version'. Do you believe commercial virtual pinball development is necessary and therefore should be supported financially? Even if they don't create the product you need or want. I'd say:no. 

[Glxb]

I still don't understand why they don't put a cab view in the Xbox or ps3 version. Sure it won't support back glass but I would buy another Xbox and stick it in my cab if they did.
Glxb

[Jedi Mart]

Seems two new tables are released latetly, Space Shuttle and Whitewater, cheers!

[rob046]

Rob, people spent thousands over the years on ensuring their gaming pc to ensure it is top of the line. Many pc gamers buy a new $400+ GPU every two years to ensure they see all the bells and whistles. Nvidia and ATI sell tons of cards and yet... The pc market typically sells 10% in sales (with a few exceptions) compared to the console equivalent of most games. I think spending on hardware does not translate at all to spending on software. On further review, both our points don't explain properly the mind of the pc owner eheh but whatever, it's hardly exclusive to pc pinball fans. Still, you have often indicated the pincab market is a small one. If that is the case, then it should not be an impediment to the success of pc pinball arcade.

 

I hope that is the case.  TPA has become a pretty good product, they shouldn't need the support of cab users to help their sales.  There are a ton of people waiting to throw money at them, myself included.

[rob046]

You seem to be delusional. Show me where a pinball has ever been anything but a standup and press two buttons to controll flippers. You may go back to the 40s with the table top pinballs and no flippers, but we aren't in the 40s.

In no way is desktop pinball better. Pressing keyboard buttons to interact with a pinball isn't anything close to what pinballs origins are. And really, I don't care about pinball simulators that give me tables that never were real tables, no interest to me. What is the point unless I'm trying to bring back memory's of pins I've played in the past, or ones that I've seen but never plays more then once.

I'm not missing out on anything. In 2013, I don't use my PC to play a desktop version of a mechanical standup pinball. I found the experience completely unsatisying as I wanted to nudge and slap the flipper buttons. The playfield was to small, nothing felt real.

So don't sell me on desktop pinball, I've moved past that long ago.

 

You've lost me on whatever you are trying to debate here.

I guess you are trying to tell me that without a cab, pinball just isn't enjoyable.  You can feel that way.  But you are in the minority.  Most people who play any kind of virtual pinball are sitting down & playing it, or play even on their phones & tablets, & plopping down more money than ever to own these products.  Pinball sims are more popular than ever, & by far most of those people don't have cabs.

I find FS tables unsatisfying, but that doesn't mean I think nobody else should play FS.  So, with that, you can't say that everybody prefers FS, because I don't.  & desktop releases still get downloaded by the thousands around here, so I know I'm not alone.

Also, I own 4 of my real machines.  & only desktop can provide similar views to what I see in real life.  FS just takes me out of the realism.  You don't have to agree with me, but it just is what it is.  It isn't for everybody.  So please stop saying that people are missing out if they don't have cabs.  Believe or not, some of us have tried to get into it, but it just isn't for us.  Also for me, I refuse to move out one of my real pinballs to make room for a virtual one.  & who can blame me?