1002 replies to this topic

[Les73gTx]

Christ really? These physics help the community. People need to get over their egos. Keep them coming Clark! And thank you!

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I have been following both threads and I am in agreement with Umpa on this one and his comment. In my opinion there is no reason these PM5 mods should not be shared. No one that has shared a PM5 modded table has claimed it to be their work as far as the actual table is concerned. The credit is almost always given to the table author of the table being used. As we all know there are a few tables that have many versions and most go out of there way to announce who did the table they added the Physics Mod to.
What I can't seem to grasp is why the original authors get upset at this but they were fine to upload and SHARE it with this free community. If they did not want their hard work acknowledged and shared with this great community why upload it in the first place.
If someone was trying to take credit for the table then I see the issue. All of the people that are sharing the Physics settings are doing only that, not really any "mod" to it. So if authors are unhappy with this public sharing of settings then I have to laugh a little ... because if you think that your tables are used EXACTLY how you release them then wow. I change some setting on EVERY table I download to suit my view or cabinet needs. Physics are just something that a lot of people will change for one reason or another.
I still believe that you as a table author need to have owned, still own, have a friend that owns, or have played more than 5 times to actually build the table properly. Videos are good and all but not good enough IMO to build something that you think is 100 % accurate to the point that you will not allow anyone to share better settings.

Christ really? These physics help the community. People need to get over their egos. Keep them coming Clark! And thank you!

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I have been following both threads and I am in agreement with Umpa on this one and his comment. In my opinion there is no reason these PM5 mods should not be shared. No one that has shared a PM5 modded table has claimed it to be their work as far as the actual table is concerned. The credit is almost always given to the table author of the table being used. As we all know there are a few tables that have many versions and most go out of there way to announce who did the table they added the Physics Mod to.
What I can't seem to grasp is why the original authors get upset at this but they were fine to upload and SHARE it with this free community. If they did not want their hard work acknowledged and shared with this great community why upload it in the first place.
If someone was trying to take credit for the table then I see the issue. All of the people that are sharing the Physics settings are doing only that, not really any "mod" to it. So if authors are unhappy with this public sharing of settings then I have to laugh a little ... because if you think that your tables are used EXACTLY how you release them then wow. I change some setting on EVERY table I download to suit my view or cabinet needs. Physics are just something that a lot of people will change for one reason or another.
I still believe that you as a table author need to have owned, still own, have a friend that owns, or have played more than 5 times to actually build the table properly. Videos are good and all but not good enough IMO to build something that you think is 100 % accurate to the point that you will not allow anyone to share better settings.
Oops sorry for the double post ... damn phone and the stupid user.

[jimmyfingers]

 

 

 

 

If anybody of the original authors has a problem with these physics enhancement I will remove them.

 

Not to be a dick or anything but I don't think that's how permission to mod works.

 

These are not really mods. It's only a different physics...

 

I'm in full agreement with Dark here and as little as I post nowadays felt compelled to mention something about this after I first saw this last week but am glad that Dark has raised it now.  I can appreciate CK that you are trying to share something you feel is improved with the community, however, you have reversed the onus on permission to being on the authors having to come back to you to request their table be removed / not be modded vs. the official rules on this site where permission is required first before releasing a revised / modded table and the onus for that is to be the modder's.  We are not even supposed to post pictures of WIPs for mods without permission.  Further, doing it the way you try to with your last push puts the authors in risk of ridicule, scrutiny, and public harassment if they do raise their concerns / request to remove these unauthorized mods as we've already seen happen recently.   

 

The dropbox method can be useful to not dirty up the official release sections and considering PM5s standing as “testing”, however, it makes it even worse for acknowledgments as original credit, thanks, and release notes are absent in this manner and original authors and who else worked on these tables / where they are coming from get’s lost.  This is already seen in this thread with the TAF questions and in the end, you CK are taking on Melon’s work without even clearly stating it was his until follow up questions arose. 

 

To say that these are "not really mods" is simply ridiculous and I really think you would know better than to make an assertion like that because "it's only a different physics".  Part of the huge element of VP pinball simulation effectiveness is largely placed on the physics and how the game plays.  I personally know that as much as about anyone which I would argue vehemently after trying to extend beyond the normal realms of the programming with developing scripts / like BMPR and supporting physics routines solely for physics mod purposes.  And with tables like that and in my specific cases for the time I spent on just the physics alone (real life trips to locations, hours of video studying, etc.) I would not consider it anything but an extensive mod – far from “not a mod” - nor would I want someone else’s interpretation superseding my time spent even with PM5 released with out my permission and opportunity for interaction / feedback for at least an agreeable improvement considering it was in those dozens to hundreds of hours spent that the physics were the goal to begin with and exhaustively tweaked (simply making it PM5 doesn’t always make the whole game play better despite the flippers being so much improved now yet having new nuances and scripting breakages).  

 

Regardless of the changes made, if a table is simply saved with any change from the original and released publicly, it is indeed a mod, period.  It’s actually the aspect of assuming that if not much was done or focused on with a table mod that that can be even more insulting to the original authors with the imbalance of time and care taken and yet still cause things to look or play reasonably different (whether subjectively deemed better or worse).   Balls being stuck and not play tested enough is one thing that comes to mind and is again being demonstrated.

 

But I'm not taking this moment about me or my mods and focusing on your last post, it doesn't involve me as an author / modder, however, every little step that continues to not respect the very few people that remain in this entire community that actually can create an entire table or mod one to extensive and transcendent levels, spending up to hundreds of hours, is one more step to losing key members and pushing away / disenchanting some of the most important category of community members. 

 

In a nutshell, it’s about respect.  It is also not about egos.  Umbra, your comments are insulting to the people who have put part of their actual life span into VP product that they’ve released here for people like you to benefit from but I wouldn’t expect you or anyone to begin to understand that who hasn’t substantially dove into a table build or spent the better part of their free time over a couple months / hundreds of hours making something for free to give to this community then get smashed when only asking for a little respect and consideration back.  Regardless if different authors have different feelings on mods, the rules and safest angle / approach for all major contributors to VP start with communication, permission, respect, and credit for their work and resources as is due for most of the real and few actual members here that truly give huge amounts of their time and skills to the hobby.

 

I really think we need Noah or a moderator to set some of this crap straight as it’s just starting to run a little too wild and I’m certain that despite people generally liking the PM5 physics potential and what it can offer, we’re going to lose people over this - decent people if the respect towards authors  / major contributors continues to bend and drop in the name of pushing out quick and unsubstantiated PM5 mods.

[Umpa]

I do not mean to disrespect anyone for anything they have done to improve this great hobby that I'm new too. However why release tables to public if you don't want modifications made to improve? I'm having so much fun and give my utmost thanks and respect to all the creators and modders. I just think without an openmind and sharing you stop the growth of this fabulous hobby.

[jimmyfingers]

I do not mean to disrespect anyone for anything they have done to improve this great hobby that I'm new too. However why release tables to public if you don't want modifications made to improve? I'm having so much fun and give my utmost thanks and respect to all the creators and modders. I just think without an openmind and sharing you stop the growth of this fabulous hobby.

Sharing is what the table authors have done in the first place and an open mind is often where improvements get made.  But you're not going to share the person's beer on your right with the person on your left are you without asking?  It's not about not building on top of what has already been accomplished (that's most of all I and a lot of us do here), it's about going about it in the right and respectful manner, even if it means taking more time for PMs or test builds to be sent to the original author(s).  Before I ever released my first MODs I had extensive PMs, screen captures, and test tables with people like JP and Noah.  Noah's feedback on the first BMPR table I did (Firepower) was taken as gospel and I accommodated his requests and revisions before ever re-releasing it publicly even if I had to be patient and practice some restraint when I was excited as I was to show case what I thought BMPR could add (I'm sure a similar feeling for what things people are finding with PM5 game play).   

 

Altering one's downloaded / personal / locally stored copy of a table is an entirely different and pointless argument as we all do that of course (if for nothing else then B2S, key changes, etc., image adjustments, etc), it's making it public without discussion / permission from the original author(s) / builders that a major difference lies.  No comparison, not even in the same ballpark regarding personal vs. public mods edited from the original download / publicly shared tables.

[ClarkKent]

I think this discussion is childish. Nobody ever asked Williams or Bally about their permission in first place. But if people are provoking that I can always delete all accomplishments...

 

And if we are speaking about Melon - he is not active anymore and can not be reached. So does this mean his work can not be used ever? Please, don't be that ridiculous. I like UW or JP's attitude instead.

Edited by ClarkKent, 18 November 2014 - 01:19 AM.

[Umpa]

Please don't stop Clark. Absolutely fantastic job!

[pincade]

In my opinion tables modification posted in a forum in the middle of discussion are not what I intend for a "Release".
You can't find these CK tables here in the Download section... So it's nothing official but pure experiments shared thru a forum as a graphic file or a .vbs file for VP.

[unclewilly]

Ha ha ha.
this is getting good.
just my 2 cents as i really dont xare if you mod or release any of my tables.
essentially if these physics mods were just changing a few settings then posting a link to a table wouldnt be necessary. You could just post some settings, like the whats your point of view thread.

It takes a lot more to make one of these tables play properly.

And in essence qhat i hear from most of the people hosting these tables, vp9.9 ohysics are crap, unplayable, not worth the time in downloading aside from modding them to physics mod 5.
When you think about an author who spent the better part of six month creating the table, coding the table, then trying to get it to play like a real pin with those crap ohysics., it truely is a slap in the face.
when i spent the better part of 3 months working on a mod for jurassic park in the midst of working 2 jobs, moving to a new state,and raising a 2 year old, only to see in the release post that it is nice but would be so much better in physics mod 5.
its a slap in the face.
and honestly i wouldnt expect anyone in the community to understand, because youve nwver built a table and have no idea what it takes. As well as most of the modders although they do some work and spend a little time, it is nothing compared to starting from a blank editor window and a blueprint.

And honestly the tables play well but when all the settings are available as they will be in vp10 like the non hard coded friction on all objects and scatter angle you will find that you think most of these tables play crappy compared to what you can do with all the settings. I have first hand experience seing how much a phusics mod table needs to be changed when all the settings are available.

I dont feel that asking permission to build on top of someone elses work is too much to ask before posting links tk tables. Ive spoken to clark and he knows anything ive done he can mod and link. But it is his position to ask, not my position to find that my tables have been linked and have to ask to take them down or pat him on the back.

It is topics like this that push me away from working on tables and releasing them anymore. You get to a point to where you just cant please everyone, but everyone is outspoken about what they want and how things should be. When you look at the community as a whole. You will see the ratio is very off balance.the huge majority are leachers and very few contribute.
and when people lose the comon decency to simply ask before modding and publicly sharing your work it get to the point where you just want to say fu@k it. Build the table yourself.

Thays probably why you wont see many if any more table releases from me and why the majority of things being released on the forum arent from scratch builds but mods.

But anyways. Just wanted to add my 2 cents for what its worth, which is probably nothing.

@nd obviously it doesnt really matter as if it sid a moderator or paul would have already set things straight.

I dont make the rules here paul does so it seems this is all ok with him so carry on

[kruge99]

I think this discussion is childish. Nobody ever asked Williams or Bally about their permission in first place. But if people are provoking that I can always delete all accomplishments...

 

And if we are speaking about Melon - he is not active anymore and can not be reached. So does this mean his work can not be used ever? Please, don't be that ridiculous. I like UW or JP's attitude instead.

Actually, there are past precedents which is why the forum policy was created in the first place.  No matter what the situation is, unless the original author or authors approve of the mod, the modded table is not allowed to be posted here.  It's that simple.  End of discussion.

 

Clark - please only post mods you have been approved to post and please remove links for any mods that are not approved.  Your opinion has been noted but the rule as it stands is not open for discussion.

 

If you don't like the rules, please feel free to visit some other forum where you do like the rules.  I don't recall anyone being forced to come to VPforums.

[Umpa]

Sad to hear you won't be making any more tables. I want to thank you for the tables you have created my kids and I are having a blast.
"GO" Clark.

[Umpa]

"GO" Clark

[jimmyfingers]

I think this discussion is childish. Nobody ever asked Williams or Bally about their permission in first place. But if people are provoking that I can always delete all accomplishments...

 

Funny, "childish" as you end that line with threatening to pick up your ball and take it home?  The whole Williams / Bally / Intellectual property thing has been way too mixed into the aspects of this discussion of permission for VP renditions and there mods mainly from not ownership or rights but time spent making it virtual from the physical realm and some respect in what that took.  The best post ever on this inappropriately and conveniently obscured concept was by Loafer and was eloquent, insightful, diplomatic, and simply bang on:

 

http://www.vpforums....e=4#entry286353

 

And if we are speaking about Melon - he is not active anymore and can not be reached. So does this mean his work can not be used ever? Please, don't be that ridiculous. I like UW or JP's attitude instead.

 

This also has been discussed ad nauseam and whether or not the author can be easily or quickly contacted was not / is not a factor for circumventing the rules  (what time frame do you conclude he or another author is not active anymore for - can he have surgery, get chemotherapy, or travel abroad for a year without this conclusion forced onto him by people not qualified to deem such things?).  

 

The thread about permissions was started to seemingly help with this should an author eventually (inevitably) disappear and now with that topic their clear wishes will have been on record and help going forward.  And it's great to have two of the most prolific authors (JP and UW) stating in that thread and elsewhere there openness and stance on mods of their tables.  But with all that that opens up for possibilities it seems extra "taking" to forcibly extend beyond the spirit of that topic and the authors on the list and push back once again to authors who have not left their position on the matter and who are not currently reachable - then bring back this whole topic again about annexing their work because of what arguably is more of a time frame without a response then whether they are truly never returning (Melon comes back once in a while and works on stuff, so does / is Groni, Scapino will still answer PMs and facilitates requests for resources).

Edited by jimmyfingers, 18 November 2014 - 01:56 AM.

[BigBoss]

I also think this whole thing is ridiculous. I've published my links to the converted tables and I have no plans to remove them. Furthermore, I have no idea who the authors of each table are. I don't save tables with naming conventions used by uploaders. Attack from Mars on my drive is called "Attack From Mars.vpt" not "Afm_vpxx_nm_dx9_2.22.vpt". Based on that, I cannot tell you what original table was used as the basis for the conversions. My links are made by a program I wrote that takes a directory of vpt files and outputs an html snippet. I can't be bothered to go remove some links from that manually because some dude is bent up that I didn't ask if it was ok with him first. Sorry.

Authors, I respect the work you do. Unfortunately, you don't own the work you do since the photos, art, rules, everything is taken from an existing game. I have no plans to track down authors to ask for permissions to make their table playable (pm is playable) vs crappy (non pm is crappy). I also have no plans to remove any of the table links I have listed on my site. I have, however, stopped posting links here. If anyone wants access to all 200 of my physmod conversions, feel free to contact me. Happy to share.

Edited by BigBoss, 18 November 2014 - 01:58 AM.

[unclewilly]

What is it exactly that you do for a living big boss. If someone to whatevere it is you do and said fuck you im going to change it a little and resell it is that ok with you. No different.

And honestly i believe it was yiu who said zen had great physics and that is far from true.

But anyways so be it.

A big fuck you table creators from big boss.

And a big fuck you too from unclewilly who made all those tables for people to enjoy in those crappy physics that was the best thing going for i cant recall how many years. I hope you have my tables already downloaded and modded.

As i plan to pull them from the site due to people like you and your fuck you attitude.
Clark please remove any links to my tbles that have been modded for physics mod vp

[ReDEy3]

What is it exactly that you do for a living big boss. If someone to whatevere it is you do and said fuck you im going to change it a little and resell it is that ok with you. No different.

And honestly i believe it was yiu who said zen had great physics and that is far from true.

But anyways so be it.

A big fuck you table creators from big boss.

And a big fuck you too from unclewilly who made all those tables for people to enjoy in those crappy physics that was the best thing going for i cant recall how many years. I hope you have my tables already downloaded and modded.

As i plan to pull them from the site due to people like you and your fuck you attitude.
Clark please remove any links to my tbles that have been modded for physics mod vp

I find it unfortunate that there is a misunderstanding such as this.  I don't know where the VP world would be without the core people like you UW, Dark, LW, Fren, JP and the other VP legends.  People with the kind of attitude that Bigboss and others show should just be banned so that the rest of the real fans don't have to be punished for their actions.  I say keep up the great work and ignore these folks who clearly don't understand what they are saying.  You guys never cease to amaze and seem like you're robots with how many awesome releases you put out.  Please don't let them get you down and I for one truly appreciate everything you do as true works of art and great recreations that we would not ever have if it wasn't for you. All I can off is "THANK YOU SO MUCH"!!!

[javier1515]

Please ck you think the time it takes to create a table .. I usually takes me at least 3 months.

As we discuss in the thread Permission to mod thread, I agree that change all my tables. but we have to respect those who do not give their permission.

Do not let the creators of tables angry nonsense and no more share their work.

 

It is my humble opinion.

[dark]

Well that was an "eye full",  I didn't really mean to let the cat out of the bag like this as I can appreciate the work Clark has done and appreciate it.  However without over complicating things or feeding the fire too much so to speak I'll say this:  The key point that jimmy made that stood out to me was "it's about respect".  It's a good thing to see improvements to tables sure, but really there's no shortage of authors who if approached with proper respect will have no issues letting you mod their work.

 

I've seen people complain about how drama and virtual pinball forums go hand in hand and this made me ask the question why is this?  I originally came here from the hyperspin forums and I never found any drama there.  I think the key difference was just that with mame, the games are already made where as with virtual pinball sites like this one where it's community driven, it's talents artists/coders/enthusiasts working to make these tables come to life.  When ever someone's 'art' and 'passion' go in to something they can't help but be at least a bit sensitive about it.  What ever the case is, if you really care about virtual pinball and have passion for this hobby you have to ask yourself "is this what's best for the community?" and "Am I paying proper respect to my fellow enthusiasts?"

 

I'm not a table builder, I'm just an artist but having collaborated with some of the great table makers in the community I can really appreciate the work that goes into this hobby and I personally wouldn't want to do anything to jeopardize the mutual respect I've established.

[The Loafer]

I really, really, really wish people would take a step back here a bit and look at the big picture.  This shouldn't be about pulling tables and ignoring authors request, there's room to meet in the middle.  On one side we have a rule that says "ask first".  Whether or not people believe that's earned, out of respect consider its not that hard to send a PM and ask and you'll find in the majority of the cases, people will be willing to provide the OK.  It's certainly less work than the people who build the tables.

 

IF the author responds with "no" or doesn't respond, is it really that big a deal to just not publish these few tables?  I get the entire art argument but that's simply not where this rule comes from, rather the position is that the effort and work is being recognised.  In a community that counts on the free contributions of a MINORITY of its members (lets remember that most members download and play, only a few percentage wise contribute as authors/model makers/music guys/script gurus,etc.), it's important that the minority in this case is responsible for the majority to enjoy the fruits of this hobby therefore that minority voice is pretty freaking loud and clear and worth its weight in gold.

 

Well, things could be worse, we could be seeing locked tables that don't even allow one to change a flipper setting...

[freneticamnesic]

Well that was an extreme over-reaction.

[jimmyfingers]

Well that was an "eye full",  I didn't really mean to let the cat out of the bag like this as I can appreciate the work Clark has done and appreciate it.  However without over complicating things or feeding the fire too much so to speak I'll say this:  The key point that jimmy made that stood out to me was "it's about respect".  It's a good thing to see improvements to tables sure, but really there's no shortage of authors who if approached with proper respect will have no issues letting you mod their work.

Dark, you didn't let the cat out of the bag at all and your concise and brief comment was quite reasonable / respectable.  My long thoughts / post after quoting CK's and your posts were just a starting point for mine (and to show my appreciation for you bravely mentioning something about it).  Didn't mean to drag you along with it unfairly and with whatever heat I, or other authors with similar views will take from the community, is not meant to spread to your / your previous post.  You spoke up simply about something reasonable in a single point - I was glad to see it but of coarse continued with my own level of thought and annoyance with more about the core issue.