109 replies to this topic

[jpsalas]

For those of us wanting to experiment with mapping Groni's killer AFM physics onto other tables, here's something pretty obvious I missed: Exporting physics values does include flipper settings (which is awesome). What the export and import process does NOT change is the table slope. Groni's AFM has a steep one: 9.7. So change those values after importing AFM physics (see screenshot) and you'll get a great starting point from which to start tweaking further.

 

Something else interesting about Groni's physics: Changed gravity constant to .56

 

I tried Groni's physics settings on JP's TOTAN for VP10 (not that there's anything wrong with JP's physics) and they work pretty great. So - this is a huge amount of fun. Addictive, really.

 

Capture2.JPG

 

So you like to play on the Moon on a very step machine)

[hmueck]

Depending on how close the VPX physics are to reality, this could even make sense in a way.

[DonRobby]

There are so many variables to get the perfect physics.

In this case the higher slope kinda makes up for the lower gravity settings but it feels like there is a lot more to this one.

None of the other games have this feeling, surely we know the low friction can make it slippery for the ball but on the other side it does play very well.

So the real question would be what will happen with this game is you want to balance out the slope and gravity more towards reality?

Will this game still play the same?

[ninuzzu]

For those of us wanting to experiment with mapping Groni's killer AFM physics onto other tables, here's something pretty obvious I missed: Exporting physics values does include flipper settings (which is awesome). What the export and import process does NOT change is the table slope. Groni's AFM has a steep one: 9.7. So change those values after importing AFM physics (see screenshot) and you'll get a great starting point from which to start tweaking further.

 

Something else interesting about Groni's physics: Changed gravity constant to .56

 

I tried Groni's physics settings on JP's TOTAN for VP10 (not that there's anything wrong with JP's physics) and they work pretty great. So - this is a huge amount of fun. Addictive, really.

 

Capture2.JPG

It doesn't make sense...JP's TOTAN is almost like the real deal, with correct dimensions and perfect physics, did you ever play the real table?

[ClarkKent]

 

For those of us wanting to experiment with mapping Groni's killer AFM physics onto other tables, here's something pretty obvious I missed: Exporting physics values does include flipper settings (which is awesome). What the export and import process does NOT change is the table slope. Groni's AFM has a steep one: 9.7. So change those values after importing AFM physics (see screenshot) and you'll get a great starting point from which to start tweaking further.

 

Something else interesting about Groni's physics: Changed gravity constant to .56

 

I tried Groni's physics settings on JP's TOTAN for VP10 (not that there's anything wrong with JP's physics) and they work pretty great. So - this is a huge amount of fun. Addictive, really.

 

Capture2.JPG

It doesn't make sense...JP's TOTAN is almost like the real deal, with correct dimensions and perfect physics, did you ever play the real table?

 

I think this is the real problem as it seems that VP players get used to play on VP that much that they do not realize how the real pinball table behaves.

[Ben Logan]

You guys are right. Nothing wrong with JP's physics - they're quite realistic. And, it is true that I'm playing lots more VP than real pinball these days. I may indeed be outta touch. All that said, Groni's physics on AFM are superb, and it's a fun project to see if I can get a similar feel on other tables. If nothing more, it's a great opportunity for a complete novice like me to learn something about the use of the editor. 

[GRONI]

 

For those of us wanting to experiment with mapping Groni's killer AFM physics onto other tables, here's something pretty obvious I missed: Exporting physics values does include flipper settings (which is awesome). What the export and import process does NOT change is the table slope. Groni's AFM has a steep one: 9.7. So change those values after importing AFM physics (see screenshot) and you'll get a great starting point from which to start tweaking further.

 

Something else interesting about Groni's physics: Changed gravity constant to .56

 

I tried Groni's physics settings on JP's TOTAN for VP10 (not that there's anything wrong with JP's physics) and they work pretty great. So - this is a huge amount of fun. Addictive, really.

 

Capture2.JPG

It doesn't make sense...JP's TOTAN is almost like the real deal, with correct dimensions and perfect physics, did you ever play the real table?

 

There is no doubt, JP Physics are great! But they are not really like the real deal. Did you ever try to do a cradle seperation, Tip Pass, Slingshot Pass, Drop catch? They are almost not possible. And this is exactly what a REAL Pinballer

needs to perform well on a table. Without these moves, it´s nothing more like a videogame. So to simulate these moves, you have to lower one´s side. In my case I didn´t gave anything about right dimensions or low friction. Cause you simply

not see it!! My Ballsize is correct and it behaves like a real ball. The mix I did is what makes this table different to other tables. This is where problems with too much Editor Settings begin. People try to make correct values like measures and hundrets of things. Sure you have them right in the editor, but

is that making the table play better? NOPE!  And if I look at the reaction of the community, you may guess that I have done something right on all those settings, even if they are "theoretical" wrong. It feels real and people have fun to perform all

the stuff you are not able to do on other tables. And this is all that counts. It makes fun to play! At least it´s fun for me and I like my settings You also have the Editor, so play around 

[ninuzzu]

Groni, you misunderstood me: I love your AFM table.

I was only saying that messing with import/export settings from other tables doesn't make sense; try those values on JP's table and then tell me if the gameplay is improved or if you can do slingshot pass (wich I still can't do on your table, but probably I'm not that good) or other tricks. I played the real TOTAN and I can say that JP's recreation is very very close. I also believe that correct dimensions are important

[nFozzy]

I've only been around since Physmod 5, so to me those tricks have always been possible. At worst, sometimes cradle separations are broken because of geometry glitches that cause the ball to get pinched through the inlane guides, or glitches with the new rubber objects. What do you use for inputs?

 

Still it's impressive work. It's a shame that ball spin had to be excised, the simulated ball spin PM5 had was the thing that really attracted me to VP in the first place. Is the problem that it's just too slow with table friction enabled? If so, there has to be some way around that. Maybe through the script?

[jimmyfingers]

Groni, the tricks you reference are not only available on your table as you claim.  You really should be more open and explorative of other author's abilities besides your own (especially as you have come and gone over the last few years) and look at some of their documented work and examples before making such absolute and isolating statements.  Here are two examples (first one from before PhysMOD even existed using scripting techniques and the 2nd as a PhysMODv5 / BMPR hybrid):

 

http://www.vpforums....flipper +tricks

 

http://www.vpforums....flipper +tricks

 

Some of the flipper control demonstrated in the Firepower example (2nd link / video) I think is pretty tough to ignore.

 

As far as the general physics, as I said in a couple PMs with you, I understand that the increased nimbleness of the ball is nice and can see why people would like that, however, this is achieved totally at the cost of an unrealistic playfield friction.  At a PF friction setting of .0025, it's so far below the intended PhysMOD / VPX physics engine architectural ranges that it's not just a case of the ball not having a spin effect / interaction anymore, but the ball doesn't even actually roll.  

 

The easiest way to show that this is happening is simply to turn on the statistics (F11), which turns on the ball tracking dots, then get into the Debug Window (button available when hitting escape key), then click the "Throw Balls in Player" and gently toss a ball with the mouse totally straight up table and watch what happens.  The white dots in this case / table will actually not move (indicating that the ball is not rolling / spinning / actually rotating in anyway) not only just for it's initial motion but all the way to it's apex and - most astoundingly - continues non-rotational even once it begins it's return back down table.  This aspect in no way occurs on a real pinball table (it's actually impossible) and to make claims against other author's tables as being "not really like the real deal" while this type of element exists on yours is being...well...I'm going to leave that incomplete but a few things would fit.  I've already pointed this out to you in a PM / first before restating here publicly, so you know of it's existence if you ever at least chose to try my test / proof or consider it at all and I really don't know how anyone can say that a ball that doesn't roll on a pinball table is representing things realistically. I think that this single element makes it more "like a video game" than the other tables / situations you describe - belittling those others with that terminology - even though of course this is all a video game really / obviously and will always be, regardless how good the simulation and chosen settings.  

 

You and some others may indeed not see or be actively observing these things or what's missing because of them, but don't be mistaken as to what the presence of this issue does for the actual simulation and some the details / nuances of real pinball that are being forgone under the surface as a result.  This is fundamental for pinball, arguably before anything else should be considered (the ball must actually roll on the table).  Also as acknowledged, a real ball / table will indeed still have the ball slide (not roll) at times, especially if it has gotten some air or a hard lateral impulse by a slingshot, but on your table the ball is sliding always.  It may look like it's "spinning" or "rolling" but at times but that is just the ball rotating because of other collisions and not the from the PF interaction at all.  This aspect turns VPX largely back into VP9 where there was just an image of a pinball following the virtual pinball around the screen but considering nothing of it's 3D / rotational elements along it's own axes.

 

Besides the claims you make about the flippers for their tricks, they too do still suffer from realism issues for at least one simple aspect, they are too slow and take too long to complete a rotation to their end-of-stroke position from the time a flipper button is pressed (even on the highest frame rates and lowest latency keyboard / USB settings / monitors).  Some tricks do seem easier to tune into the flippers for when playing with the flipper mass values, but at a setting of 1.6 and a fairly high "coil ramp up" value of 5, it makes the flippers just to laggy and they definitely stray from realism in that regard. I can understand why some of these upper values may seem appealing at first and played with some higher settings as well in the PhysMODv5 era, but never above 1.2 and even then people also pointed out a feeling of lag even with that level and my coil ramp up value was also lower too (but even then the flipper lag on that table was still not as distinct as it is on this one).

 

I think you are a talented detailed author with a good eye and definitely have been, and indeed still are, a great asset to the Visual Pinball community.  From what I've seen of VP in my 5 and a half years involved with it is that there always seems to be a trade-off where one thing may look or feel better but then something else does not.  I think you acknowledge that somewhat as well, however, you're still coming out pretty strong into the PhysMOD / VPX era indicating that you believe you stand alone as to capturing realism and you've found the perfect / "right" solution for VPX physics where, quite simply, you do / have not.  I too will not end up with perfect / "right" physics settings, but I'm also going to be mindful of claims I make about my and other's tables.

[GRONI]

Well Jimmy, I don´t want to quote the text, since they are always extremely long  

 

First of all I don´t think I am somewhat of a standalone guy. I guess it´s a language thing that make my texts coming through like that. But for sure I am a guy that tells what he thinks. I never really play much other tables, and maybe that´s why

I never saw any detailed physics. There are always some tables that I try and then throw them aways because of bad physics (not the therotical physics, but the feeling) or simply the lack of detail.

There are two things that is important for me....Details and Feeling...This combination I don´t find on many tables. 

 

And Jimmy you are the best example of what I mean. You throw out tons of text extracting the theoretical part of how a real ball behaves and how it´s all should be done and what is the thing really happening on my table. Press F11 if you want,

but tell me....Who needs this?? Therotical Guys maybe, but people who just play pinball don´t care about that. I convinced pro players with my AFM, cause pro players do only one thing when they playing "virtual" pinball...they look how it feels

to play it. They don´t analyze the friction and say "WTF is that???" they just play it. In most parts they play virtual pinball tables and have a laugh on their face, cause they always think that NOTHING can come close to real pinball. But when, like

in my case pro players say "WOW, that feels real", I guess then I did something right. And then I just give a f.... about any values that may be "unrealistic" 

 

There are very talented guys here and I would never say I am the best or the only one. I am just a guy with a morbid hang to detail..on the practical not theoretical part Feeling, Feeling, Feeling. I love it when something feels right and looks detailed.

Robocop is one of the examples that really impresses me. Fluppers Ramps and his shiny mods are so good!! freneticamnesic´s Metallica is so good! ( Oh I am such a bad boy, did I name a SAM table on this forums...buhhhh  ) I also ask other people for help. I very often ask JP for scripting help, cause he is simply a Script genius! I asked flupper for help on the ramps, since I did not get to manage to make nice ramps like he does. 

 

About my flippers, yes they are a bit too slow, the new one´s are a bit faster, but like I said before, you have to lower one´s side to have the effect. A Tip over is only possible with that kinda settings. And this is really something important for pro

players to have. I never saw a tip over is possible on other tables. That was one thing impressed me on Pinball Arcade. So show me one other table that have this feature, and I will test it, and optimize it on my table.

 

Wow..that was a long text also...Nevermind Jimmyfingers

[Ben Logan]

Jimmy and Groni,

This is a treat: I want to compliment you guys on having a passionate yet gentlemanly and respectful debate -- that's not easy to pull off, and is an achievement in itself. The last two posts outline two important poles: Theory vs Practice. Or, Heart vs Mind. We need both, of course. I tend to agree with Groni -- his table may break some of the hard won physics rules, but it just feels closer to right to me than so many other valiant efforts. I see the same thing in rock and roll all the time: Someone plays a technically wrong note or beat, but it feels right, so you go with that. This approach can be taken way too far, of course.

It's just this kind of constructive debate that's going to push our shared endeavor to capture realism forward. Carry on gentlemen!

[GRONI]

One thing that I always think about on this discussion like Ben said "Therory vs Practice"...When a low friction and the resulting sliding ball makes a table more bouncy and more responsible, and a normal playfield friction

with a rolling ball makes it flat....Isn´t still there an issue with Physics in VPX?? A faked physic like I did seems to make more impresssions like the "therory" ones...

 

I have to admit, I found some nice flipper settings with lots more response and also all tricks are still possible. So everybody who said that the flippers are to sloppy will be more happy with them. I tested them on my 

Walking Dead Table (Damn..SAM again   ) and they played really good with lower coilup. I will adapt them to the AFM Table and do a smal update, so you guys can test them as well.

[sliderpoint]

Woohoo!!  PHYSICS SHOWDOWN!  I like it.

 

Alright Jimmyfingers, put out a table and let the players compare!

 

(heh, my instigating way to get more cool tables out there quicker!)

-Mike

[sasa12345]

Fantasy, but I have a latency in both flippers?

Edited by sasa12345, 19 February 2016 - 10:48 PM.

[jimmyfingers]

...
 
I convinced pro players with my AFM...
 
...
 
I never saw a tip over is possible on other tables. That was one thing impressed me on Pinball Arcade. So show me one other table that have this feature, and I will test it, and optimize it on my table.
 
....

 
So, you still didn't bother to even look at the links I posted then, eh?  I've attempted to show you already, as it's the 2nd link from above and is to a Firepower PhysMODv5 / BMPR hybrid table, where in the video you can clearly see tip passes (it also demonstrates flick passes) and the link for the table download itself is further down at the end in that same topic / link.  I think you lose credibility and do yourself a disservice when you keep saying "show me" but don't even follow a link already provided and discussed where someone has produced such an example to "show you".
 
I'm going by the PAPA youtube video "Pinball Flipper Skills" series terminology for "flick" and "tap".  The tap pass is not very feasible on more modern machines and was more for weaker / less powerful flippers from early SS and EM tables (not a coincidence in the video as to the age / generation of pinball table they demonstrate that trick on).  These physics from this table in the link can essentially be directly applied to the VPX version, however, I did use at that time a mass of 1.2 for flippers then to make the tap pass easier but have since dropped that to a setting of 1 with some other slight variations to make it more responsive with some sacrifice to tap passes but still allowing them if executed well / precisely and also depending on having one's virtual cabinet setup well with USB polling updates, decent keyboard / button encoders / hardware, good / fast physical switches for the flippers (preferably leaf switches), and not using any more than "1" for prerendered frames.  
 
It's all there if you want to see it, but like you admit, you don't even look at other tables and seem to not want to  anyway - even after I'm showing you about your false claims that it can't be done / hasn't been done on other tables, you still seem to repeat that truely ignorant view despite proof being a mere click away.  My posts aren't going to get any shorter if I have to repeat myself for such basic elements and I won't bother to repost the link because it's just up above and I'll save the text (plus, you're probably still not going to check it out yet still likely continue saying you have seen no proof).
 
As far as the pro that you supposedly convinced, they were either being nice to you or you have provided a bias version of the story here as your AFM table is not like the real deal, if for no other reason but at least one, and that is how the flippers respond.  There is already another account on the forums here of someone else's "pro friend" in which that was the exact feedback.  You can tell us all you want of your circle of amazing pinball people that claim your table is just like the real deal (and then purport how JP's TOTAN is not - according to you) but even a lay person can tell the flippers are significantly slower than in real life.  I agree that the flippers and ability to use them for tricks as well as their main purpose for accurate shots is arguably the biggest bit of pinball, but yours are clearly slower than "the real thing" in such an easily discernible way and even with the fastest input devices and frame rates / refresh settings.  I add no stock to your stories in this regard if you report such things with such clear issues still present and were as such at the time you stated your pro friend tried things out.
 
 

Jimmy and Groni,

This is a treat: I want to compliment you guys on having a passionate yet gentlemanly and respectful debate -- that's not easy to pull off, and is an achievement in itself. The last two posts outline two important poles: Theory vs Practice. Or, Heart vs Mind. We need both, of course. I tend to agree with Groni -- his table may break some of the hard won physics rules, but it just feels closer to right to me than so many other valiant efforts. I see the same thing in rock and roll all the time: Someone plays a technically wrong note or beat, but it feels right, so you go with that. This approach can be taken way too far, of course.

It's just this kind of constructive debate that's going to push our shared endeavor to capture realism forward. Carry on gentlemen!

 
 

One thing that I always think about on this discussion like Ben said "Therory vs Practice"...When a low friction and the resulting sliding ball makes a table more bouncy and more responsible, and a normal playfield friction
with a rolling ball makes it flat....Isn´t still there an issue with Physics in VPX?? A faked physic like I did seems to make more impresssions like the "therory" ones...
 
I have to admit, I found some nice flipper settings with lots more response and also all tricks are still possible. So everybody who said that the flippers are to sloppy will be more happy with them. I tested them on my 
Walking Dead Table (Damn..SAM again   ) and they played really good with lower coilup. I will adapt them to the AFM Table and do a smal update, so you guys can test them as well.

 
You try and trivialize the matter and discredit me with your invented context for this discussion of the "Theory vs. Practice" deal.  My example and method to see for yourself / reproduce was to show you an objective way to observe and verify a clear issue that is occurring on the table and with the ball not even rolling on the PF you are then most certainly not going to get ball spin interaction with the playfield.  Ball spin is not theoretical and occurs in real life / on the real deal / in "practice", however, your table has no ability to produce ball spin events at all due to the PF friction settings and issues demonstrated and as such you are not, as you think you are and state so devisively, creating the practically complete pinball experience.  In no uncertain terms, ball spin exists for real and is not theoretical but is missing on your table so don't try and split the lines on this theory / practice diminishment of my points and clear examples
 
Here is a video showing the issue as I bet you still haven't bothered to check it out manually for yourself:

Edited by jimmyfingers, 20 February 2016 - 05:46 PM.

[ICPjuggla]

[GRONI]

And another Book of your Storys. Sorry i just skip through it. I like the table and lots of other People like them too. This is all that counts for me. I checked your links, but sorry, the flippers are ok, but all of the rest is just flat physics. Nothing to be proud of. We dont have the Same View in that kinda Problem. But its ok. You have your tables and I have mine. If you dont like them...simple rule..dont play..but please let me do my work and you Do yours. I am happy when a few People like the table. I am Not here to satisfy everybody. I just want to release the view tables i like and thats it.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

[jimmyfingers]

That's fine Groni, but it was never a case of just not playing your tables, I spoke up when you started to put down JP's tables and in that sense I could say the same to you to just avoid them.  "nothing to be proud of", eh, sorry but I am proud of those works and my efforts to add physics improvements to VP over the years especially through custom scripting ideas, but most of all that linked information was to show you that your claims on flipper tricks only being facilitated by you / your tables were baseless.  You come across very dismissive and arrogant a lot of the time despite only floating in and out of the VP scene periodically for the last 5 years yet still showing that you think that your experience and product is still superior to everyone else's.  I think you're still treating VPX like VP9 and part of the reason you don't miss the ball spin is that you didn't work with PhysMOD ever during your absence so it doesn't seem like a loss to you not to have it.

 

If you're going to criticize other people's works, then expect and be open to criticism of your own works.  If you want to say yours is playing like the real thing and their's doesn't, that's just your opinion too and doesn't make it actually true.  Enjoy your VP 9 and a half physics!  

[Ben Logan]

Well, we're certainly moving in the right direction physics-wise with VP10. After playing tons of Groni AFM and JP TOTAN for VP10 (with JP's physics), I drove two hours to Oakland to visit my favorite spot: The Hi-Life Bar with "secret" upstairs pinball room. You have to walk through the kitchen to find it. Here's the point: Practicing on Groni's and JP's tables has actually improved my intermediate-player skills quite a bit! I was shocked. Playing tons of VP9, much as I love it, usually kinda threw my real-pinball game off. I always had to mentally adjust.

So - you devs and table authors are doing amazing work. We're making progress. We need diverse interpretations of real world physics from separate authors.