318 replies to this topic

[jpsalas]

One problem may be the EOS Torque being changed in the script. In line 1006 it is a new EOS:

 

Const EOSTnew = 1.0 'FEOST

 

Everytime I have used an EOS torque value higher than 0.85 the ball have started jumping on top of the flipper. Try changing that line to

 

Const EOSTnew = 0.85 'FEOST

 

If there is no change in the behaviour then it must be another setting. I haven't studied nFozzy's script, but I guess he uses that high EOS so the ball don't rebound when the flippers are up.

[JLouLoulou]

i know what i will do tomorrow with all of testing you ask

Envoyé de mon Redmi Pro en utilisant Tapatalk

[kds70]

This would tell me you're just too accustomed to VP flipper physics which do not accurately simulate the trajectory of real pinball flippers.

 

Maybe ... but i own a real pinball too and i know flipperphysics. But thats not the story for now and i tried to explain whats the issue. Not so easy; sure this is a more real flipper script, but however, there´s something which isn´t real (feels like too much friction but it isn´t).

 

It´s better @JlouLoulou tries to explain it ...

Edited by kds70, 08 April 2020 - 07:43 PM.

[rothbauerw]

One problem may be the EOS Torque being changed in the script. In line 1006 it is a new EOS:

 

Const EOSTnew = 1.0 'FEOST

 

Everytime I have used an EOS torque value higher than 0.85 the ball have started jumping on top of the flipper. Try changing that line to

 

Const EOSTnew = 0.85 'FEOST

 

If there is no change in the behaviour then it must be another setting. I haven't studied nFozzy's script, but I guess he uses that high EOS so the ball don't rebound when the flippers are up.

 

There is an issue where the flippers can get knocked off the end angles that causes the bouncing behavior you're describing.  The flipper script will detect that scenario and correct it, so you won't see those weird bounces with these flippers.  At least you shouldn't, but maybe on an under powered system?  And you are correct as to why the EOS torque is adjusted, it prevents a "springy" flipper when a high velocity ball strikes near the tip.

 

This would tell me you're just too accustomed to VP flipper physics which do not accurately simulate the trajectory of real pinball flippers.

 

Maybe ... but i own a real pinball too and i know flipperphysics. But thats not the story for now and i tried to explain whats the issue. Not so easy; sure this is a more real flipper script, but however, there´s something which isn´t real (feels like too much friction but it isn´t).

 

It´s better @JlouLoulou tries to explain it ...

 

 

Honestly, I can't follow JLouLoulou's description.  If you can give me a specific scenario where things don't feel right, that would be more helpful.

 

BTW, we had two owners of real TOM tables in our beta test group.  They were able to test this table side-by-side.  We even have videos comparing flipper behaviors between the two and they are very similar.

[Ben Logan]

Flippers feel great, here. I have a new and powerful computer for the first time in a decade. I also own six real Williams machines (I always fear that mentioning this sounds like I'm bragging -- I promise I'm not). That said, I love how responsive rothbauerw is toward trying to support players who may be having different experiences on their machines. Thanks so much, rothbauerw!

[rothbauerw]

 For information, on totan i don't play with nfozzy physics too. I even don't like it.

 

 

I'm going to set a few things straight right now:

1. If you have constructive feedback, we're all ears.  I will not tolerate anymore, "I don't like it" BS.  It's a slap in the face.
2. We're not here to serve your personal preferences.  If you don't like the table as-is, learn to modify the table to your liking.
3. Have some respect for the amount of time authors invest on these tables.  You have no idea how much of our blood, sweat, and tear go into something like this.
4. If you're truly having issues, we're happy to help troubleshoot.  But we will not tolerate trolling.

Too many here like to criticize without any detail of what isn't working.  KDS, Clark Kent, and JLouLoulou, I'm talking to you.  If you want to provide a specifc scenario with side-by-side video comparisons or detailed descriptions of what's happening that's not correct and what would be correct, then please share.  If you can't do that, then keep it to yourself.

 

Thank you Ben Logan.  I needed to hear some positive feedback.

Edited by rothbauerw, 08 April 2020 - 08:40 PM.

[kds70]

@rothbauerw: don´t missunderstand; never underrated this awesome table release. please wait; try to upload a screenshot and to explain, gimme 5 minutes:

 

so. back ...

 

i try to explain simply my first thoughts while the first matches - maybe i´m wrong:

 

In position 2 the flipper bats seemed to be too strong. i had a nearly 80% chance to hit the right outlanes with the right flipper bat easlily and i thought: this is possible with this angle of the flipper bat? Same to the left flipper bat with the ball hit in position 2.

 

In position 1 the flipper bats - if u hit a ball there at the end - the balls seems to roll from the bat, feeled a bit too weak and takes another angle in a heavy way.

 

These were only my first thoughts i tried to explain.  I´m happy to see other comments / or your comments that i´m wrong or something else =)

 

I know these - for example - right outlane shots can happen with a right flipper. with my real machine too (sometimes) - but so often?

 

It has nothing to do with you all work - it´s a question about flipper physics.

 

And for now - i´m back on cab playing ...

 

 

Edited by kds70, 08 April 2020 - 09:03 PM.

[JLouLoulou]

One problem may be the EOS Torque being changed in the script. In line 1006 it is a new EOS:
 
Const EOSTnew = 1.0 'FEOST
 
Everytime I have used an EOS torque value higher than 0.85 the ball have started jumping on top of the flipper. Try changing that line to
 
Const EOSTnew = 0.85 'FEOST
 
If there is no change in the behaviour then it must be another setting. I haven't studied nFozzy's script, but I guess he uses that high EOS so the ball don't rebound when the flippers are up.

 
There is an issue where the flippers can get knocked off the end angles that causes the bouncing behavior you're describing.  The flipper script will detect that scenario and correct it, so you won't see those weird bounces with these flippers.  At least you shouldn't, but maybe on an under powered system?  And you are correct as to why the EOS torque is adjusted, it prevents a "springy" flipper when a high velocity ball strikes near the tip.

 

This would tell me you're just too accustomed to VP flipper physics which do not accurately simulate the trajectory of real pinball flippers.

 
Maybe ... but i own a real pinball too and i know flipperphysics. But thats not the story for now and i tried to explain whats the issue. Not so easy; sure this is a more real flipper script, but however, there´s something which isn´t real (feels like too much friction but it isn´t).
 
It´s better @JlouLoulou tries to explain it ...
 

 
Honestly, I can't follow JLouLoulou's description.  If you can give me a specific scenario where things don't feel right, that would be more helpful.
 
BTW, we had two owners of real TOM tables in our beta test group.  They were able to test this table side-by-side.  We even have videos comparing flipper behaviors between the two and they are very similar.

I'll try to make you a video. But simple example, when the ball roll from the Slingshot corridor, Flipper angus accuracy is very wide.. i need to anticipate it a lot, and even with a static ball, it's very difficult to have consistent shot where i want.
I have a Gottlieb Stargate which is very different from Williams, but i also have friend who have fish tales and Popeye, and they are not like that. Maybe TOM is like that in real, so, i'm not a player for this pinball. But i really think there is a problem somewhere, and i'am not alone to have this. So, pc configuration are so various, ( not like machintosh ), maybe there are some glitch with flipper script.. I suppose.

Envoyé de mon Redmi Pro en utilisant Tapatalk

 For information, on totan i don't play with nfozzy physics too. I even don't like it.

 

 
I'm going to set a few things straight right now:

• If you have constructive feedback, we're all ears.  I will not tolerate anymore, "I don't like it" BS.  It's a slap in the face.
• We're not here to serve your personal preferences.  If you don't like the table as-is, learn to modify the table to your liking.
• Have some respect for the amount of time authors invest on these tables.  You have no idea how much of our blood, sweat, and tear go into something like this.
• If you're truly having issues, we're happy to help troubleshoot.  But we will not tolerate trolling.

Too many here like to criticize without any detail of what isn't working.  KDS, Clark Kent, and JLouLoulou, I'm talking to you.  If you want to provide a specifc scenario with side-by-side video comparisons or detailed descriptions of what's happening that's not correct and what would be correct, then please share.  If you can't do that, then keep it to yourself.
 
Thank you Ben Logan.  I needed to hear some positive feedback.

sorry, but i don't tell there where a problem on totan. I just tell that i prefer the classic setup for flipper.. Do not misinterpreted what i say. There is no offense to you. i'm here to be constructive.. not to discredited what you make.

And i think i'm not trolling you.. otherwise you don't read what i wrote before, here and on the wip topic. I 'm so impressed of what you make.

Envoyé de mon Redmi Pro en utilisant Tapatalk

Edited by JLouLoulou, 08 April 2020 - 08:50 PM.

[rothbauerw]

I'll try to make you a video. But simple example, when the ball roll from the Slingshot corridor, Flipper angus accuracy is very wide.. i need to anticipate it a lot, and even with a static ball, it's very difficult to have consistent shot where i want.

 

Thank you, this is more helpful.  This sounds like flipper lag to me.  I'm not seeing it here, but if the script isn't running fast enough, I could see how this might happen.  Let's see what happens when you try the suggestion above to disable the right flipper timer.  I tried simulating a slow timer here and I do see the behavior you're describing.  My flippers also feel very weak when I do this.

 

One other change I would like you to try.  Instead of disabling the flipper timer, try changing the following line:

 

Const SOSRampup = 8.5 

 

to 

 

Const SOSRampup = 2.5

[ludovids]

Many thanks to all involved in this monumental effort. Looking forward to giving it a try this weekend...

 

   

[JLouLoulou]

I'll try to make you a video. But simple example, when the ball roll from the Slingshot corridor, Flipper angus accuracy is very wide.. i need to anticipate it a lot, and even with a static ball, it's very difficult to have consistent shot where i want.

 
Thank you, this is more helpful.  This sounds like flipper lag to me.  I'm not seeing it here, but if the script isn't running fast enough, I could see how this might happen.  Let's see what happens when you try the suggestion above to disable the right flipper timer.  I tried simulating a slow timer here and I do see the behavior you're describing.  My flippers also feel very weak when I do this.
 
One other change I would like you to try.  Instead of disabling the flipper timer, try changing the following line:
 
Const SOSRampup = 8.5 
 
to 
 
Const SOSRampup = 2.5

thanks. I'll try it tomorrow. I will try also without vsync for example. But not now. i can't be on my cab.
But be sure i'm not descridited your work


Envoyé de mon Redmi Pro en utilisant Tapatalk

[batch]

Thanks a lot, this table is a piece of art !

 

And sounds are very realistic, and so many options, and ...

[rothbauerw]

@rothbauerw: don´t missunderstand; never underrated this awesome table release. please wait; try to upload a screenshot and to explain, gimme 5 minutes:

 

In position 2 the flipper bats seemed to be too strong. i had a nearly 80% chance to hit the right outlanes with the right flipper bat easlily and i thought: this is possible with this angle of the flipper bat? Same to the left flipper bat with the ball hit in position 2.

 

In position 1 the flipper bats - if u hit a ball there at the end - the balls seems to roll from the bat, feeled a bit too weak and takes another angle in a heavy way.

 

Thank you, this is also much more helpful and we can have a constructive conversation about it.

 

For position 2.  Too strong when cradling?  Too strong when hitting a rolling ball from a down position?  I'm not sure what you mean by hitting the right outlane.  I can't hit the right outlane at all from the base of the right flipper.  When I think right outlane, I think a drain down the right side of the table.  Or are you referring to a post pass?

 

For position 1.  I'm assuming you're talking about a flick pass here, or are you referring to a full flipper stroke and striking the ball in a near fully up position?

@kds and @JLouLoulou

 

Thank you both, we're all good.

[kds70]

Ok:

Ball hitting in position 2 of the right flipper bat makes it easy to shoot the pinball through the rightest upper lane ( right ramp ) very often. most times i think: this is really possible with this angle i hit the pinball? the same happens to the left flipper bat when hitting the ball in the marked position 2 area of the left bat. so i first thought the flipper strength is much to strong and / or friction too high. happens if you hold the ball and play the ball that i can´t believe the ball is now going this strange way / angle?

 

Ball hitting in position 1 at the end of the flipper bat feels a bit weak (full strokes and normal hittings. don´t know to explain, sorry). so the ball takes another angle and direction i never thought (ball rolls over the end?)

Edited by kds70, 08 April 2020 - 09:47 PM.

[htamas]

This is simply breathtaking. EVERYTHING is perfect. It's actually scary how well this plays, and how much it is like the real table (which I played quite a bit not very long ago).

 

Thanks to everyone who was involved in this project. A monumental release.

[Oldschool4]

Thankyou for sharing guys,your work is Appreciated   , works perfect on my cab.

[TNT2]

Wow. This is incredible! 

 

Thanks everyone for your hard work. 

[rothbauerw]

@kds

 

For position 2, I can see what you're saying.  There is some trajectory correction going on there.  The angle is slightly sharper than what the angle of the flipper should allow for.  However, I think that's a small price I'm willing to pay for a more realistic post pass and more accurate trajectories as you move a few more millimeters down the flipper.  I'll take a look to see if I can adjust the correction without sacrificing the post pass.

 

For position 1, I've seen some wide variation on the strength near the tip on real machines.  I tried to achieve a middle ground between the extreme's.  I haven't seen odd angles coming off the tip unless on the rounded portion, but even then, the angles feel right to me.  I have seen the ball roll over the end at times when the flipper absorbs the momentum of the ball but not the spin.  This is something I haven't solved for yet and definitely varies from what I'd expect to see in the real world.  Again, for now, it's a trade off I'm willing to make to be able to have a more realistic live catch than was previously achievable. 

Edited by rothbauerw, 08 April 2020 - 11:23 PM.

[ItchyRobot]

====================
FIXED - needed a reboot
====================

 

It's saying there are no balls?

How do I add a ball, I forget... I tried 'B' but that didn't work.

 

also tried to delete my cfg and nvram files (this did fix the error U22 error). Still loads saying no balls, so I can't play  =(

 

====================
FIXED - needed a reboot
====================

Edited by ItchyRobot, 09 April 2020 - 10:31 PM.

[TNT2]

Wow. This table is definitely going to push your video card.