146 replies to this topic

[whsemngr]

All the members on here who are bitchin about, how dare they ask us for our money & why should we giving them money to create this table!, are nothing but hypocrites!!

I bet you all have played a version of Twlight Zone on VP and have the very table and ROM sitting on your PC right now and what did you pay for that privilege??....bugger all that's what! I think your all forgetting that important fact that you haven't paid a single thing towards this game in VP and infact any table in VP.....myself included!!

So I say to you, not how dare FarSight ask for money to pay for the licesnses that this table holds! but, how dare you play this game for free all these years and not contribute to the licenses and are bitchin about it now when a company wants to go about creating this table the correct and moral way!!

And by the way there has been no confirmation that the table will be $10, if they reach their kickstarter target then it will be the usual price of a regular table! IF you donate more than $10 to the kickstarter project then you get the table for free when it's released!

Exactly...It's time for the pinball community that play these free tables to give back to those who hold the licenses to these pinball tables and thank them for turning a blind eye all these years.

Also, there's a reason why it took months to raise $1,500 for the Unity license and why the pinball community has already pledged $20,000 to back FarSight in just 38 short hours. Think about it.

Edited by whsemngr, 20 May 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[TedB]

Come on. All the guys working at the time in the pinball industry will not get a penny from this kickstart or sales. You will not give back money to anyone who was ever involved in that. You will give money to people exploiting the rights they have bought (not FarSight). The original company already made a nice profit with them many years ago.

You are fooling yourself, really. Williams is not creating any Pinball table anymore and still doesn't allow any reproduction of Pinball 2000 tables.
Companies are usually not a bunch of nice people that have your interest in mind. Mostly it is an entity with mainly one goal in mind "profit". Is that bad? No, it is not but it is a fact. In this case I only suggest to keep an open mind to the possibility this development might hurt the community more than it will help.
I know the short term reward can be tempting, but on the long run this could hurt VP and FP innovation. IMO that is where the real future of pinball is.

FarSight could be a great company that have no intention of doing any of the 'evil' stuff. I haven't seen them commenting on VP or FP so don't know their point of view. My main concern is that throwing money at them may stir up things. Be careful what you wish for.

[whsemngr]

Come on. All the guys working at the time in the pinball industry will not get a penny from this kickstart or sales. You will not give back money to anyone who was ever involved in that. You will give money to people exploiting the rights they have bought (not FarSight). The original company already made a nice profit with them many years ago.

You are fooling yourself, really. Williams is not creating any Pinball table anymore and still doesn't allow any reproduction of Pinball 2000 tables.
Companies are usually not a bunch of nice people that have your interest in mind. Mostly it is an entity with mainly one goal in mind "profit". Is that bad? No, it is not but it is a fact. In this case I only suggest to keep an open mind to the possibility this development might hurt the community more than it will help.
I know the short term reward can be tempting, but on the long run this could hurt VP and FP innovation. IMO that is where the real future of pinball is.

FarSight could be a great company that have no intention of doing any of the 'evil' stuff. I haven't seen them commenting on VP or FP so don't know their point of view. My main concern is that throwing money at them may stir up things. Be careful what you wish for.

You're the one fooling yourself...the money FarSight needs for licensing will be going to CBS (who own the license to The Twilight Zone), the estate of Rod Serling, Golden Earring for using their song "Twilight Zone" and George Kooymans for writing the song "Twilight Zone." FarSight has also already paid licensing fees to Stern, Williams and Gottlieb, so don't sit there and tell me anyone involved with these licenses aren't going to get a penny because that's who all the licensing fees plus royalties from the tables sales are going to. I think you've been hanging around the VP/FP community a little too long.

Also, VP and FP is good for creating tables that others may not have any other option of playing them, but now that pinball is somewhat rising from the grave in licensed digital form, the option is now there once again for everyone to support the license holders and I have no problem doing it and neither should anyone else in this community. The fact is, the majority of the people in the VP/FP community have been playing pinball tables for free for so long, that they've forgotten (or don't care anymore) about what's right and wrong and care nothing about supporting the people that made it possible for the original tables to be produced in the first place...but hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Edited by whsemngr, 20 May 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[TedB]

the VP/FP community have been playing pinball tables for free for so long, that they've forgotten (or don't care anymore) about what's right and wrong and care nothing about supporting the people that made it possible for the original tables to be produced in the first place...but hey, what ever helps you sleep at night.

Yep. I hate it when companies only buy patents to extract money from innovative companies. I hate it when companies buy rights to songs and can still profit from it when the creative composers are already dead. I hate it that a company like FarSight should have to pay for the legacy of Rod Serling.
You should really stop using VP and any roms now if you think that it is not right to use roms without any compensation. Noah has spoken to enough pinball people that know exactly what is going on here. They don't mind and usually are very happy their creations are used by us.

I am talking about companies that earn a lot of money but haven't created anything or contributed anything.
As already explained, I am not talking about FarSight. They may be a couple of great guys with the best intentions. I am talking about the faceless companies that extract money from them. 'Hey..., our lawyer was right.. we can make a lot of money with this old junk!' Who says they will be satisfied after this financial injection?

BTW. I have donated a lot in the last few years. My donations go to open source projects that share code and do stuff that improves my desktop experience. That makes me sleep good at night, because I know people can use and improve that code for free for ever. So everyone.. also people that don't have money to donate or buy

[whsemngr]

the VP/FP community have been playing pinball tables for free for so long, that they've forgotten (or don't care anymore) about what's right and wrong and care nothing about supporting the people that made it possible for the original tables to be produced in the first place...but hey, what ever helps you sleep at night.

Yep. I hate it when companies only buy patents to extract money from innovative companies. I hate it when companies buy rights to songs and can still profit from it when the creative composers are already dead. I hate it that a company like FarSight should have to pay for the legacy of Rod Serling.
You should really stop using VP and any roms now if you think that it is not right to use roms without any compensation. Noah has spoken to enough pinball people that know exactly what is going on here. They don't mind and usually are very happy their creations are used by us.

I am talking about companies that earn a lot of money but haven't created anything or contributed anything.
As already explained, I am not talking about FarSight. They may be a couple of great guys with the best intentions. I am talking about the faceless companies that extract money from them. 'Hey..., our lawyer was right.. we can make a lot of money with this old junk!' Who says they will be satisfied after this financial injection?

BTW. I have donated a lot in the last few years. My donations go to open source projects that share code and do stuff that improves my desktop experience. That makes me sleep good at night, because I know people can use and improve that code for free for ever. So everyone.. also people that don't have money to donate or buy

That's fine, I know I'm not going to get anyone that's against FarSight's intentions, or paying what's due to the license holders, to change their mind, but I just wish some of you would quit trying to justify what's really going on here. I have no problem with VP or FP and yes I still currently use both of them on my PC, but at the same time, I feel it's only right that I support the one's that made all this possible in the first place now that I have a chance to do so. Everyone has their own opinion, but just wanted to say my peace. You all have a good day.

[gaijinking]

the VP/FP community have been playing pinball tables for free for so long, that they've forgotten (or don't care anymore) about what's right and wrong and care nothing about supporting the people that made it possible for the original tables to be produced in the first place...but hey, what ever helps you sleep at night.

Yep. I hate it when companies only buy patents to extract money from innovative companies. I hate it when companies buy rights to songs and can still profit from it when the creative composers are already dead. I hate it that a company like FarSight should have to pay for the legacy of Rod Serling.
You should really stop using VP and any roms now if you think that it is not right to use roms without any compensation. Noah has spoken to enough pinball people that know exactly what is going on here. They don't mind and usually are very happy their creations are used by us.

I am talking about companies that earn a lot of money but haven't created anything or contributed anything.
As already explained, I am not talking about FarSight. They may be a couple of great guys with the best intentions. I am talking about the faceless companies that extract money from them. 'Hey..., our lawyer was right.. we can make a lot of money with this old junk!' Who says they will be satisfied after this financial injection?

BTW. I have donated a lot in the last few years. My donations go to open source projects that share code and do stuff that improves my desktop experience. That makes me sleep good at night, because I know people can use and improve that code for free for ever. So everyone.. also people that don't have money to donate or buy

Ted,
These are all great points. I agree with you on most of them, but in the case of what will really help get these tables out there and played again by the masses, I think you're rationalizing just a bit too much. I mean really, how bad can it be if you have to buy a table for less than $3 dollars? And if the table is extremely high quality, made by fellow pin enthusiasts, it's a win win situation. I love all of the VP tables, and for what it is, and the fact that until now there was no other alternative than seeking out the real thing, but I know that the only way for pinball to thrive- any pinball be it virtual or real pins, I've got to put my money to the vote.
And again, my hope is that once Farsight releases an editor in the future, there can be even more community participation by creating more original tables in virtual form. Of course with the additional few user constructed recreations that fall between the cracks. But again, if a million users are playing pinball again in virtual form across any number of platforms, this is a good thing for the pinball community as a whole. Asking users to pay a small fee to legally use these licenses is fair. I think it is wrong to take the attitude that pinball is dead, and why should we pay for old licenses when we can use them for free because nobody cares. With that attitude, why would any studio want to invest in restoring old films, or tv shows. Or re-release old music that's fallen out of print since the days of vinyl. Yes, I support open community projects that I care about, especially when it's original content. But I also go out of my way to support the things that are produced for the sake of getting old or forgotten things out there in the world again.I know it kills me too that the owners of certain IP will just take them to their grave. But if I want high quality versions of these things be it films, music, or old games, I don't mind paying a fair price for what I want. I would rather prove these IPs viable rather than just let them waste away in obscurity. So if you're saying- just let pinball die, so that they leave the VP community alone, I will vehemently disagree with you...

Edited by gaijinking, 20 May 2012 - 12:01 PM.

[unclewilly]

my only issue is that i dont particularly care for the game. i play tz every week at the pinball museum and honestly i dont think its that great of a game.

you wanna fo a kickstarter for safecracker sign me up, or kingpin, or breakshot.

what im more concerned about is the quality of the pc version of the game.
id like to have faith in farsite and think that they will make the pc version all it can be, but when i see the mac version that was released being almost identical to the ipad version i have serious doubts.

i havent seen any video conformation of the bells and whistles the pc version will have as i did with the console versions before they were released.
so since the pc is my main means of playing pinball i would rather wait and see what is being offered.

ive supported the company by buying all they have to offer on android.

my only fear is that the company will eventually shut down the vp/fp communities which they very well could do.

and as i enjoy creating table as much or more than playing them, this is a big concern for me.

and honestly if paying for the use of roms is the issue or not contributing to the original licensing companies. should i give up using mame as well.

i think i have contributed plenty with the thousands of dollars i sunk into pinball and arcade gamesin the eighties and nineties

but whatever.

show me some of what the pc version will do and ill gladly contribute.

weve been promised great things in the past by companies like slammit and were very let down. and since farsites primary target is mobile and consoles, my expectations are not that high

[moogster66]

Well said UW. I have played both the 360 and PS3 versions, and I think if they are what the PC version will be like it will be good. I would really like to see some video of the PC version running in a cab, with a working backglass. If they could produce that, I feel most of the community here would jump on quick.

Edited by moogster66, 20 May 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[lettuce]

my only issue is that i dont particularly care for the game. i play tz every week at the pinball museum and honestly i dont think its that great of a game.

you wanna fo a kickstarter for safecracker sign me up, or kingpin, or breakshot.

Well games like Safecracker, Kingpin, Breakshot.....and ill add Champion Pub here aswell are not going to need a kickstater donation process as there no big license tied to these sort of tables, heck even Ripleys Believe It Or Not didnt need this type of funding so it is only extreme situations.

The thing is though Scott, if we dont support this kickstart now and it fails to meet the target then i doubt FarSight will try it again in the future for tables that will need this sort of funding as they'll know there wasnt the support for it!. So we wont see the likes of Star Trek: TNG, Addams Family, Dr Who etc for the PC version of TPA

Edited by lettuce, 20 May 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[The Trout]

Well, it's not as good as exact specs, but they have said that they won't release the PC version until the graphics are AT LEAST as good as the PS3 version, and they've pledged cabinet support. So that's something.

I did wanna mention something that's bothering me a bit here: to the people saying that "Why bother, we already have VP," it's worth noting that the VP recreations of Twilight Zone and other licensed tables technically use tons of copyrighted material without permission. If any one of the companies went nuts, they could have them pulled offline in a heartbeat. Sure, right now, no one seems to care. But what Farsight is trying to do is LEGITIMATELY release these tables for the masses. It's business, yes, and they wanna make a profit, but it should also be applauded for the effort.

[gaijinking]

my only issue is that i dont particularly care for the game. i play tz every week at the pinball museum and honestly i dont think its that great of a game.

you wanna fo a kickstarter for safecracker sign me up, or kingpin, or breakshot.

what im more concerned about is the quality of the pc version of the game.
id like to have faith in farsite and think that they will make the pc version all it can be, but when i see the mac version that was released being almost identical to the ipad version i have serious doubts.

i havent seen any video conformation of the bells and whistles the pc version will have as i did with the console versions before they were released.
so since the pc is my main means of playing pinball i would rather wait and see what is being offered.

ive supported the company by buying all they have to offer on android.

my only fear is that the company will eventually shut down the vp/fp communities which they very well could do.

and as i enjoy creating table as much or more than playing them, this is a big concern for me.

and honestly if paying for the use of roms is the issue or not contributing to the original licensing companies. should i give up using mame as well.

i think i have contributed plenty with the thousands of dollars i sunk into pinball and arcade gamesin the eighties and nineties

but whatever.

show me some of what the pc version will do and ill gladly contribute.

weve been promised great things in the past by companies like slammit and were very let down. and since farsites primary target is mobile and consoles, my expectations are not that high

Hey UW,
I guess I haven't fully gotten my fill of playing TZ yet. I really hope Safecracker and Kingpin make it out too! Honestly, if they can make the PC version on par or better than the PS3 version, I'd be more than pleased. Ultimately, I think once they run the gamut of tables that are viable/profitable they will release an editor, which is what I'm most excited about. I didn't really dabble in making tables for VP or FP yet, but I really want to get my feet wet. And right now with a 3 month old daughter, even thought we're super close to the Pinball Hall of Fame and the Pacific Pinball museum, I'm enjoying Farsight's offerings on my ipad and Xbox360 more than anything.

[unclewilly]

im not arguing about donating to the kickstart. in fact i already donated 50 bucks.

my thought is that there are plenty of tables out there that they already have the license for that they could release as dlc including the williams and gottleib collection.

its my opinion that the main focus should be on gwtting the releases out for all platforms before bothering with licenses, when they have plenty of licenses to start with.

being available on all platforms would definately incourage more people to donate

[codeena]

Well said UW. I have played both the 360 and PS3 versions, and I think if they are what the PC version will be like it will be good. I would really like to see some video of the PC version running in a cab, with a working backglass. If they could produce that, I feel most of the community here would jump on quick.

Amen, plus a dmd on a third monitor.

[The Trout]

my thought is that there are plenty of tables out there that they already have the license for that they could release as dlc including the williams and gottleib collection.

I'm with ya there. As supportive as I am of Farsight, I think they'd be better off not sweating the licenses yet, no matter how highly rated those tables may be. There are tons of original tables from Bally / Williams that they could be making that are truly excellent. That said, I can see their motivation: not only are some of those licensed tables incredible, but they have name value to potential buyers as well.

[settingsons]

I do get the impression from what people have said here and on HP Forums that after meeting and speaking with the Farsight team (which is very small) they are a top bunch of fellows who really want to create a perfect sim with full cab support. They certainly listen and react quickly - the DMD dot matrix look was requested and has been implemented, the look of ball was overhauled after a lot of public feedback, etc., etc. I think they are now thinking ahead with regards to the TZ licence because a lot of the paperwork needs to be done upfront. People have been constantly asking for the TZ tables on their facebook pages and in the fans foruns, and this is just them trying to meet the demands of the community. As many people on these forums are willing to invest lots of time and effort to help othesr and please the community I think they have the same drive. Yes it is their living and they need to make money to pay the wages, but they can still be passionate about their job.

btw - The VP TZ night mode with UVP is truly awesome for anyone who hasn't tried it yet in a cabinet - FS will certainly need to work hard to match it

[gaijinking]

im not arguing about donating to the kickstart. in fact i already donated 50 bucks.

my thought is that there are plenty of tables out there that they already have the license for that they could release as dlc including the williams and gottleib collection.

its my opinion that the main focus should be on gwtting the releases out for all platforms before bothering with licenses, when they have plenty of licenses to start with.

being available on all platforms would definately incourage more people to donate

I'm sorta with both camps here. There are really only about a handful of licensed tables that I'm really excited about and TZ just happens to be at the top of my list. With that said, I don't think that the kickstarter will get in the way of them producing any of the other tables that they've promised. Hopefully next year they can start letting us vote for releases instead of just making assumptions off of the top 100 list.

Edited by gaijinking, 20 May 2012 - 05:59 PM.

[rooter]

Please stop using the word donate. No one is donating anything, if you choose to, you are simply pre-ordering a certain version of the game.

Also, stop calling it a cash grab. It doesn't make any sense for them to make a Twilight Zone table when they have a hundred other tables they can make that don't need any additional licensing. They simply gave consumers an option. If enough people want it, it will happen.

However, I did send them a note that the type of purchase I was going to make was going to be based on how well their software will run on my pinball cabinet. If you own a cabinet, I hope you do the same.

[The Loafer]

There's been the word "preservation" bandied about, but you know, the average person just wants to play pinball, not "preserve" it.

Scott: Great points, I would only think the reason why TZ is used as kickstarter is because of it's ranking on ipdb.org. It's been referred to as the "#1 pinball ever made" by a lot of different sources so in the sake of bringing exposure to their product, there's probably no better pinball to convert. I'm sure that too has gone into the equation behind what they are doing. A good business decision.

As to the legalities, we should always be thankful for what we have, you never know when it could stop and what we have, nothing and no one will ever be able to take it away. The same is true for mame or anything emulation related, so enjoy it .

[s1500]

To those that are complaining that Farsight is out to make money on this. Guess what, all companies are out to make money. The same can be said to Williams, Stern, etc who charge to play their pin cabs. They are out to make money too!

The arguments I've seen against Farsight are more emotional, not logical. I think people are just disliking it because it's not VP. Suddenly wild definitions of what a "true pinball fan" is. Preserving pinball? That sounds to me like taking perfectly good cabs and putting them in a temperature controlled nuclear bunker miles underground. Sure, you can't play them, but they are "preserved". I just wanna play, not admire the games from afar. A sports car is much more fun to drive than it is having it sit in a garage.

Farsight's taking the legitimate, licensed route which is going to take money. VP by nature has not respected licenses, and we are all grateful the lawyer vultures haven't come swinging down & shutting this site down with litigation.

[Vercingetorix]

God forbid that a professional company making professional-quality products charge money for them. Particularly when licensing is involved.

I love VP; I have three machines set up to play it, including a laptop in my kid's room which he wears out. But it is clearly a hobbyists' platform. Farsight is producing a commercial product -- with a correspondingly high level of quality -- and unfortunately that means that license-holders have to get paid.

Kickstarter is a different way to go about it, but basically all they're asking people to do is agree to pre-pay to guarantee the sales they need before they commit to the licensing fees. If enough people agree in advance to buy, they make the table. I don't know how that's anything other than reasonable.