1002 replies to this topic

[The Loafer]

All that needed to be said has been said, we are good to go for vp10 and those that want to mod existing tables for vpphysics have the ability to do so. Everyone's happy, let's party!

[Pinbotfan]

I never complained about VP10 breaking tables that work in VP9. Actually I hope the changes are so that this is unquestioned. I was not complaining about the Physics fix being the best version available. It is a good version and the settings are not hard to change. I was a bit dismayed about it being called a hack though given that a global settings set would turn the existing from crap physics to good physics . That must be what you were picking up on. But as I said it's here and it's great, regardless of the threat or pressure it would put on future development labeled as anything other than hack.

[mpad]

I think its all about confusing people who do not read this thread. Making a 10.0 which icludes physmod and is backwards compatible (with necessary adjustments to make tables work) and a 10.1 which will really break compatibility will confuse the hell out of regular users out there. So it's only a label thing. I just think the break would be nicer with the change from 9 to 10. So my vote is for a 9.9 + physmod, official or not.

Edited by mpad, 03 June 2014 - 05:40 AM.

[Pinbotfan]

I think its all about confusing people who do not read this thread. Making a 10.0 which icludes physmod and is backwards compatible (with necessary adjustments to make tables work) and a 10.1 which will really break compatibility will confuse the hell out of regular users out there. So it's only a label thing. I just think the break would be nicer with the change from 9 to 10. So my vote is for a 9.9 + physmod, official or not.

 

Though the settings can be changed to work, It is also absolutely necessary, Most feel that these settings incompatibilities mean version incompatibilities, and they do, however easy to overcome. I beat the drum for something official that is nether VP9 or VP10 simply because there is a easy way to get rid of bugs (nudging) and improve the simulation not just a little, but a great deal (flippers and ball action) in nearly all of the existing tables. What can be more important than the ball and every way it is controlled?

 

My hunch is way before and well after VP10 release a great many existing tables are going to be updated for the superior nudging, ball, and flippers using the 9.9 physics overhaul build, official or not. I just hope unofficial does not mean taboo in this case.

Edited by Pinbotfan, 03 June 2014 - 06:53 AM.

[Mitchell]

Know what. We don't need the VP10 to where it load up a VP9 table. Keep it at VP10 tables only. Leave the VP9 tables where those belong. Just remake the tables from scratch is the way I see it for the VP10. All we have to do is port all the images with the sounds onto VP10 and then start working on it from there. This way there won't be any issue at all on the backwards compatible or what ever. VP9 isn't going anywhere anyway unless they are planning to ban it from this website and anywhere else.

Edited by Mitchell, 03 June 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[mukuste]

 

I think its all about confusing people who do not read this thread. Making a 10.0 which icludes physmod and is backwards compatible (with necessary adjustments to make tables work) and a 10.1 which will really break compatibility will confuse the hell out of regular users out there. So it's only a label thing. I just think the break would be nicer with the change from 9 to 10. So my vote is for a 9.9 + physmod, official or not.

 

Though the settings can be changed to work, It is also absolutely necessary, Most feel that these settings incompatibilities mean version incompatibilities, and they do, however easy to overcome.

 

Some points:

• They may be easy for you to overcome, but for someone who just downloaded VP for the first time, or even someone who has used it for years but has never really gotten into the editor, that's not true. Just look how many people in this thread asked for a ready-made demonstration table to be able to check out the new physics.
• You are not the one who will deal with the neverending stream of support threads in the vein of "why doesn't this table work in that version". It happens even with 9.9.0, which is pretty damn compatible with old tables, and it would be a disaster with a totally incompatible version.
• Have you played UW's conversion of Melon's Creature? It's very obvious that someone put a lot of effort into tuning that to play just right. This is the quality of modded tables that I want, not a deluge of mods where someone plopped in a set of default parameters and was done with it. That would be underselling both the new physics engine and all the great VP9 tables.

 

I beat the drum for something official that is nether VP9 or VP10 simply because there is a easy way to get rid of bugs (nudging) and improve the simulation not just a little, but a great deal (flippers and ball action) in nearly all of the existing tables. What can be more important than the ball and every way it is controlled?

 

My hunch is way before and well after VP10 release a great many existing tables are going to be updated for the superior nudging, ball, and flippers using the 9.9 physics overhaul build, official or not. I just hope unofficial does not mean taboo in this case.

 

You're missing the point. Official mods can only be released by table authors themselves, or with their explicit permission. Physics mods aren't any more or less "taboo" in this regard. Everything else, for your home use, you can do with or without an official release. So I really don't understand the problem, or the need for an official intermediate release. It simply serves no purpose.

[unclewilly]

Great point.
The majority of tables are only releasable with author permission.
Not many are just free to mod like mine are.
So with an intermediate release where are people getting any tables to play.
A lot of previous authors aren't really making tables any more. For example jpsalas.
If you think building tables is that easy or you feel that taking someone else's hard work and distributing it with your own modifications without permission, you are at the wrong forum.
It is very disrespectful to think that someone would take a table that took months to track down resources for , months to prepare resources for, months to build and code and just take and release it to the community.
That is a whole other debate.

So essentially an intermediate release really only benefits a tiny percent of the community who can make the adjustments.


And by the way. Notice how this debate has derailed this thread.
It's almost impossible to find a post about the actual development of the new physics in between the demands for an official release of the engine which I'm sure still needs f utter development.
So rather than working on perfecting the engine, our faithful dev is stuck answering a never ending flow of "why can't we have an official version of this,??"
Of which there will be no compatible tables for until the actual author decide and have the time to update there old tables.

Any way. Please don't be discouraged by this, and continue development. And know that many who contribute much to the community are truly appreciative of all your work that you do for us in your free time.

Just my 2 cents

[Pinbotfan]

I didn't say anything about table mods. I was talking about the VP program PhysicsOverhaul being used for posting tables after it being called a hack here. Generally Hack and taboo are synonymous here.

 

There is no real problem otherwise, There is no need either, having the VP9 based mod, unofficial, hack, whatever it is now, PhysicsOverhaul, but the purpose I'm sure is obvious.

[arngrim]

i feel sorry if i started the debate, i didn't know the new physics were part of vp10 as it is not part of the vp10 thread and source code is separated from it, i can use physmod5 for my own purpose, until we have a kickass vp10, no problem on that

[mukuste]

I didn't say anything about table mods. I was talking about the VP program PhysicsOverhaul being used for posting tables after it being called a hack here.

 

I don't know if you are wilfully ignoring this point or you just don't understand me, but: posting a table is a privilege that the original author of the table has. These are the rules of this community. It has nothing to do with what .exe was used to produce the table. Authors can start posting physmod5 versions of all their tables all over the place, and neither I nor the forum rules can stop them from doing it.

 

I didn't call anything a hack, and I'm the sole developer of this mod, so please stop clinging to that word. And I don't know what you mean by "the purpose is obvious".

[ronaldvg]

Normally I just read comments like before, but now I feel I need to react:

 

5 months ago I would have never imagined that VP would be at the stage it is in now. We have DX9 and physics just to name two of the great enhancements. What does it matter that the devs do not want to make VP9 with physics official ? We HAVE it ! We can play with it and use it. Mukuste could also have kept the physics a secret until VP10 was released and no one would have asked to put it in V9. If anyone wants to use it as his main exe, just rename it to vpinball9999.exe or something. Why ask for a rename by the devs ? I think people do not realise how much work is going into this for the devs.

 

As I see it, the devs have a very good idea where to go with VP and we as a community all benefit from their work. I don't say that we must not discuss about possibilities, but just to be a bit more understanding about the work this all takes. Especially when you ask for something that is coming such as physics in VP10. This was clearly stated in the overview of VP10. To make a VP9 with Physics official just makes it more confusing, because there will be even more versions of a table available. Newcomers will be put off if they download a table and the ball does not come out of the plunger, just because they are using a physics modded table with the non physics executable. VP10 will have it by default.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited by ronaldvg, 03 June 2014 - 12:02 PM.

[Pinbotfan]

 

I didn't say anything about table mods. I was talking about the VP program PhysicsOverhaul being used for posting tables after it being called a hack here.

 

I don't know if you are wilfully ignoring this point or you just don't understand me, but: posting a table is a privilege that the original author of the table has. These are the rules of this community. It has nothing to do with what .exe was used to produce the table. Authors can start posting physmod5 versions of all their tables all over the place, and neither I nor the forum rules can stop them from doing it.

 

I didn't call anything a hack, and I'm the sole developer of this mod, so please stop clinging to that word. And I don't know what you mean by "the purpose is obvious".

 

Thanks for clearing that up. fuzzel was the one that said (just on the previous page of this very thread) that tables using this build should be considered hacks. This had to be cleared up. It's very important.

 

For all the communication on this point there sure was a lack of communication. I was never talking about mods, authorized or not. I was only talking about and concerned about the tables that are going to be released (by the authors) with physics, being called hacks and made not available. This site does not allow hacks of VP or VPM or table files made with them, or links to them. For the lack of communication and for vague 'the purpose is obvious' comment, I apologize. The purpose is making, or updating tables to be the best they can be in some areas and simply to work in others.

 

Thanks again for the work on VP. 

[sliderpoint]

Hopefully mukuste is able to step back from the details of the posts and understand the reason behind all the recent posts in this thread.  He has done a great job with the physics and people are clearly very excited by them.  Good Job!

 

Now something hopefully on topic.  I recently got a PS3 controller to work for analog nudging in my cab.  It's pretty cool, but needs some tweaking.  It never seems to tilt seems the biggest (I'm probably doing something wrong).  I believe it is the same in 9.9.  I think I read earlier that the analog nudging still needed coding.  Is that something that will be included in these physics changes or is it something separate that will be in the VP10 exclusive builds?

 

Thanks

-Mike

[LoadedWeapon]

I have stayed clear of any debate and have just enjoyed the progress. I think VP 10 should be just that.. with all these new physics and features. No backwards compatibility.. lets move forward we have more than enough on VP9. I know everyone is in a hurry for new things because its free but like others have said most dont know what all goes into making everything. Im excited for the new editor and want to be able to make tables and contribute more..

[BigBoss]

Of the 190 tables I've converted, I can vouch its a ton of work. After plugging in the new parameters, there is a lot of play test required. Then fixing VuK, kickers, plungers, etc. Some of the EM style tables are 5 minute conversions. Most DMD tables are 30-120 minute conversions. And all this is basically throw-away work as things will change in the future.

I suggest that we do merge the physics into the main vp10 source tree, though. And perhaps require a vb script command in each table that if not checked warns the user that the table will not work in vp10 and he must use vp9 or older. This should lessen support issues.

[Noah Fentz]

Phil, AKA Shockman, AKA Pinbotfan has been banned since 2011, and up to his usual, disruptive ways, I see.

 

Sorry I didn't catch him sooner, guys.

 

Commence discussion.

[gigalula]

My 2 cents

 

I personally use autohotkey scripts to call all my tables and execute the needed VP version available so honestly I think that progression of VP version shouldn't take care of backward and leave the table makers free to release an updated version adapted to desired VP version.

 

here is the script based on tables names and specific "part of text" used to detect the proper version of VP so far this work perfectly for me with pinballx . Simply use it to your need and name it for example "RunMyVP.AHK" compile script and call it from pinballx by replacing the vpinball.exe by your compiled name for example I use "RunMyVP.exe" don't forget to put the compiled exe inside VP folder where all exe stand.

 

Pinballx setup:

 

Executable: RunMyVP.exe

Parameters: /play -"[TABLEPATH]\[TABLEFILE]"

 

 

Sorry for my poor experience with script and I hope to help some of you with backward issue. Maybe I that way we will keep away the question about taking care of old stuff in newer version of VP

	#SingleInstance force
	SetTitleMatchMode 2
	DetectHiddenWindows On
	SetWorkingDir %A_ScriptDir% 

	vpt=vpt
	vpx=vpx
	playme=/play
	editme=/Edit

	Table = %1%	;Variable direct table
	SplitPath, Table, Tname, Tdir, Text, Tname_no_ext, Tdrive
	SplitPath, Tdir,, vpdir
	If (Text=%vpt%) or (Text=%vpx%)
		{ 
		goto Tabledetected
		}

	Table = %2%	;Variable from PinballX or batch file personal use.
	SplitPath, Table, Tname, Tdir, Text, Tname_no_ext, Tdrive
	StringTrimLeft, Table, Table, 1
	SplitPath, Tdir,, vpdir
	StringTrimLeft, vpdir, vpdir, 1

	If (Text=%vpt%) or (Text=%vpx%)
		{
		if playme=%1%
			function=%playme%
		else
			function=%editme%
		goto Tabledetected
		}
	exitapp

Tabledetected:


	IfInString, Table, VP91
		{
		myexe=VPinball916_r721.exe
		}

	IfInString, Table, VP92
		{
		myexe=VPinball921.exe
		}

	IfInString, Table, DX9
		{
		myexe=VPinball_DX9.exe
		}

	IfInString, Table, physmod2
		{
		myexe=VP_physmod2.exe
		}

	IfInString, Table, physmod3
		{
		myexe=VP_physmod3.exe
		}

	IfInString, Table, physmod4
		{
		myexe=VP_physmod4.exe
		}

	IfInString, Table, physmod5
		{
		myexe=VP_physmod5.exe
		}

	IfInString, Table, physmod
		{
		myexe=VP_physmod.exe
		}

	IfInString, Table, vpx
		{
		myexe=VPX_rev1081.exe
		}

	if myexe=
		{
		myexe=VPinball.exe
		}


	If function=%editme%
	        RunMytable =%vpdir%\%myexe% /Edit -"%Table%"
	Else
	        RunMytable =%vpdir%\%myexe% /play -"%Table%"		

	Run, %RunMytable%

checkprocessagain:
	Process, wait, %myexe%, 5.5
	NewPID = %ErrorLevel%  ; Save the value immediately since ErrorLevel is often changed.
	if NewPID = 0
			goto checkprocessagain

	Process, WaitClose, %NewPID%
	exitapp


return

Edited by gigalula, 06 June 2014 - 11:19 AM.

[arngrim]

working with several lists in pinballx works great as well, in all tables menu you have all tables and it choose the right version based from which list it comes from

[unclewilly]

Out of curiosity.
How far along is the physics overhaul.
Test 5 seems pretty nice. Not sure if primitive collision is included with this.

Appreciate all the work you guys have done with this. Getting ready to port mb over to these physics to see how the real holes turn out.
Also preparing fire port to this

[mukuste]

It's pretty far along I would say. One minor thing I still want to do is implement ball/ball friction, right now they are frictionless. Should be a subtle thing, but maybe improve cradling multiple balls.

 

I was also thinking if I should change the slingshots to get a bit more realistic angles, but I haven't heard many complaints about them, so maybe not worth it.

 

Moving primitive collisions aren't implemented yet and will be a fair amount of work. I'll work on that after the merge though since that will also tie into the internal changes I did to primitives in VP10. Also, the bugfixes to the static primitive collisions that we talked about.

 

Finally, I need to hook up the friction and scatter values to the actual textboxes in the editor, right now those don't do anything. This will be a bit of a chore for table authors... I thought that if we had a way to filter objects by type in the Ctrl+Shift+E dialog (Select Object or what's it called), it would make this much easier since you could select, say, all walls and set their friction in one swoop, instead of having to do them one by one.