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Pinscape expansion board support thread


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#701 Everly

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 01:52 AM

Attempted to sent a message to mjr but got a message that the member could not receive any messages.  I'm starting down the path of building a cabinet and wanted to get onboard with getting the Pinscape controller out of the gate.  Waves at wrd1972


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#702 wrd1972

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 10:55 AM

I can send him a pm for you.

My VP Pincab /MAME Arcade  Specs: Dell T3400 workstation with Core2 Quad core 3.0GHZ (Q9650) CPU - 8GB of RAM - Nvidia  GTX 970

40" PF Sony gaming LED TV, Dual 21" Dell monitors in the backbox - Pinscape dual boards - Full DOF - Full MAME arcade support.


#703 Everly

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 11:18 AM

I can send him a pm for you.

That would be great, thanks.  Feel free to send him my email if he wants to contact me directly.


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#704 mjr

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 08:10 PM

Attempted to sent a message to mjr but got a message that the member could not receive any messages.  I'm starting down the path of building a cabinet and wanted to get onboard with getting the Pinscape controller out of the gate. 

 

You can get in touch with me by regular email at mjr_ at hotmail dot com (note the underscore).



#705 DarenHawes

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 11:26 AM

Hi

 

I have a pinscape without the expansion board.

 

I want to run my new knocker, but do I need the expansion board for just one solenoid? Any help would be appreciated as it would be great if the key input controller could help me!

 

I understand I cant run direct from the board so what would one recommend? What would the wiring look like and what components (transistors etc)?

 

Thanks!



#706 mjr

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 05:23 PM

I have a pinscape without the expansion board.

 

I want to run my new knocker, but do I need the expansion board for just one solenoid? Any help would be appreciated as it would be great if the key input controller could help me!

 

I understand I cant run direct from the board so what would one recommend? What would the wiring look like and what components (transistors etc)?

 

The expansion boards would be overkill if you just need one output device.  There are simpler options for a small number of ports.  The main reason for the expansion boards is that the other options can get a little unwieldy if you want a large number of ports, but they're fine for just a few.  Check out this chapter:

 

http://mjrnet.org/pi...p?sid=psOutputs

 

Scroll down to the "Standalone KL25Z" section.  That has details for a few options for how to write output devices.



#707 Ciceronic

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 07:48 PM

Hi,

A lot of physical things up and running in my cabinet, and this is more of the annoying kind. No big problem.

 

I have 5V & 12V from a additional PSU, and a separate 24V power supply. Pinscape controls most of it. Ground signal is shared.

Problem is my fan (24V) causing glitches at the DMD screen (5V).
 

The fanmotor has a diode, and the glitches are only visible while the fanmotor is running.

I also have a gear motor (12V), that doesn't disturb the DMD at all. 

This is somehow related to the fanmotor and the common ground I think.

 

I don't know how to "filter it away", any suggestions?

BTW, fanmotor is a Philips Hair dryer. Just rip everything out except the motor.

Perfect 24V heavy blower. Your wife will probably forgive you in a couple of years... ;)


Edited by Ciceronic, 06 May 2019 - 07:50 PM.


#708 Suikazz

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 07:51 PM

I suppose you run the pin 2 dmd from the same power source? That would not be the best way to do it. Try to power it from your pc power supply.

#709 SEALen

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 08:15 PM

Not a support question but can someone link me to some pictures of your finished installs off these cards? All I see are the bare cards... Love to see it connected and all working.



#710 mjr

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 09:16 PM

Problem is my fan (24V) causing glitches at the DMD screen (5V).

 

The fanmotor has a diode, and the glitches are only visible while the fanmotor is running.

I also have a gear motor (12V), that doesn't disturb the DMD at all. 

This is somehow related to the fanmotor and the common ground I think.

 

I don't know how to "filter it away", any suggestions?

 

That's a pretty heavy-duty motor - I can imagine it's injecting some noise into the circuit.  

 

I think you're going to need some additional line filtering in addition to the diode.  The diode is definitely necessary and a good start, but this is evidently going to take something more.

 

If you look at the real machines with motors, they always have a "motor EMI" (electromagnetic interference) board connected in line with the motor, because they ran into exactly this same problem!  Those boards are pretty simple - most of them just use a couple of inductor coils, arranged so they're in series with the 12V and GND lines to the motor.  You can buy these for under $20 from the pinball supply vendors (PinballLife.com, MarcoSpecialties.com, etc), or you could try just adding a pair of inductors yourself (less than $1 each).  Maybe try 4.7mH, and make sure the minimum amperage rating is high enough for your motor.   Wire like so:

 

controller port ------ inductor -------  (-) motor (+) ---------- inductor ----------- +24V


Edited by mjr, 06 May 2019 - 09:39 PM.


#711 Ciceronic

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 06:49 PM

Thanks for great ideas!

Started with Suikazz idea of changing power supply for the DMD, and that improved the situation a lot. Only a few very tiny glitches now. :)

With some inductors at the fan too, this will soon be completely teminated. 



#712 Krodak

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 09:12 PM

Would there be any issue with using these to simplify hookup to the idc pins?

 

https://www.amazon.c...1-2-spons&psc=1



#713 DDH69

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 11:55 PM

Would there be any issue with using these to simplify hookup to the idc pins?

 

https://www.amazon.c...1-2-spons&psc=1

 

Using header cables like this but a different size will work, but not the one you've linked to.  The KL25Z has 4 headers set out in two sets of two. J1 is 16 pin, J2 is 20 pin, J9 8 pin and J10 12 pin.  I had a look this morning and the spacing between J9 and J10 is just right to allow for a larger header socket if you want (ie the gap between them is exactly 1 header pin in size), but a 40 pin one will hang well over the end.  The spacing between J1 and J2 is NOT right for a single header socket.

 

So my view in summary.  The idea you have is good, but you need to find the correct size ribbon cables and connectors.


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#714 Krodak

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 03:53 PM

Yeah I realized that, I just mainly wanted to know if the small gauge wire in the ribbon cable would affect anything. I will be using the power board and the chime board and thought this would be a easier way to wire everything and keep it neat and for easier troubleshooting.

 

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.


Edited by Krodak, 12 May 2019 - 03:54 PM.


#715 DDH69

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 10:53 PM

The gauge wire will be fine, you've got 3V3 at about 4mA for most outputs.  Worst case would be the power, and ribbon cable will handle that fine as well.


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#716 MikePinball

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 05:46 PM

The gauge wire will be fine, you've got 3V3 at about 4mA for most outputs.  Worst case would be the power, and ribbon cable will handle that fine as well.

I think DDH69 is referring to the KL25Z outputs which are indeed 4mA or so.

 

The Pinscape power board and chime board outputs are much larger. I measured 350mA for my contactors and solenoids can take 1 to 5 Amps. I wouldn't advise a ribbon cable for the Pinscape Expansion board outputs. I'm using 18 AWG stranded for them.

 

So you will need some 0.1 Molex headers and pins.

 

I bypassed the whole issue by creating PCBs that had pluggable screw connectors to reduce crimping and make it easier to change things around. See this thread on my alternative to the standard Pinscape Expansion boards.


MikePinball (dba Oak Micros).

 


#717 blietzkrieg

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 12:24 PM

I'm reaching out here in desperation, hoping that someone can help me resolve my situation.\
 
The short of the long story is that I bought a Pinscape Expansion Board from German Gaming Supplies and it appears that none of the high powered output ports are functioning ("straight out of the box"). All of the buttons, & plunger attached to the Pinscape main board however appear to be working (or at least partially working) OK.
 
Summary of my setup:
I have 2 external power supplies: 1 dedicated for "toys" i.e. 
24v for solenoids
12v for gear, shaker, 2 x strobes & knocker (via 12v-50v booster circuit) & 3 x becons
5v for [Pin2DMD uses stolen and/or infringes IP. PinDMD is the genuine product ;) ] & Addressable LEDS.
 
The other supply is dedicated to supplying the power to the Pinscape Expansion Board itself via JP10 and JP4 using the supplied wiring harness i.e 12 & 5v plus ground.
The only other thing that is connected to the 2nd PSU is 12v for the 4 illuminated LEDS in the buttons on the front & 2 x 3.3V LEDS for coin rejects.
 
The 5v for JP1 & JP7 on the Pinscape Expansion is being delivered by the PC (which makes up the 3rd PSU)
 
All of the grounds on each of the 3 power supplies are inter-connected to form common ground.
 
I have checked that JP 10 & 4 is getting the correct 12 & 5v and that JP10 & 4 are getting the correct 5v that is required.
 
I have updated the firmware of the Pinscape to the latest (March 5, 2019 build) and ensured that I'm using the latest Config Tool (for Windows) to test (also March 5, 2019 build)
 
Using the Config tool (ensuring that it's configured as Pinscape Expansion) to test outputs and sliding the relevant outputs to 255 I get no output on any of the pins JP5 or JP6.
 
Additionally - my the RGB Star LEDS in my 5 bar flasher have mixed output (in terms of light intensity, which I'm assuming is directly related to power output which is difficult for me to test now). Some are perfectly bright as expected, such as the 1st & 4th blue and the 4th Red, however the majority of the others are lacking in output from no (or very little) output to maybe 30% brightness. I do not get this if connecting directly to ground. 
 
All the "toys" mentioned above (with the exception of LEDS) have fuses sitting between the Pinscape controller and the device. All of the devices mentioned work perfectly fine when individually connected to ground as a test.
 
It should be noted that I have received a glimmer of hope on a few occasions upon the PC booting and the Pinscape is initialising that I have had one of my Beacons (assigned to port JP6 pin3) come on (and stay on) and also one of the solenoids fire intermittently (undetermined which one as has only been a few times)
 
My electronic knowledge and skills are limited (which is why I went down the expensive route of purchasing a completed unit from GSS rather than going down the DIY route)
 
I am therefore at the mercy of you good people to provide help in getting this one resolved (or at least further in the right direction).
 
I must say that the quality of the build looks perfect to my untrained eye, so I'm hoping that it's something relatively simple that I'm missing?  

Edited by blietzkrieg, 22 May 2019 - 02:03 PM.


#718 mjr

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 06:07 PM

blietzkrieg - it sounds like you've checked the basics in terms of software configuration, so it's probably something wrong with the hardware.  

 

Since you seem to have several things not working, I'd focus on one thing at a time.  In this case, one output port at a time.  Take one output port that's not working and focus on figuring out why.  Ignore the others for now.  Once you figure out that one port, move on to the next non-working port.

I'd start with one of the non-working flasher ports.  Some of those seem to be working correctly, so you can rule out a number of things, such as a bad data connection to the TLC5940 chips on the main board, completely dead TLC5940 chips, or bad power connections.

 

One question first, though: for the flasher ports that are working, are they working reliably and consistently?  If you go into the config tool  and bring up the output tester dialog, do the working ports all respond properly when you slide the brightness slider across the range?  Do they all turn both on and off when you tell them to?  Do you ever see the wrong port being affected when you're changing the brightness on any of the flasher ports?

 

The reason I ask is that I want to make sure that the working ports are all responding to commands, and not just stuck in the "on" position or responding randomly.

 

If you're satisfied that the working flasher ports are all working correctly and reliably, that narrows things down quite a lot for the non-working ports.  The problem then has to be in the components between the TLC5940 and the flasher output.  There are only two components in that section: the PC847 optocoupler chip, and the UL2064BN chip.

 

There are two main troubleshooting techniques once you've narrowed things down to that level.  The first is to get out the schematics and trace the connections from pin to pin on the affected circuit with a continuity tester.  One common problem is a bad solder joint at a pin connection (between a pin and the circuit board).  Those can be difficult or impossible to spot visually, so a continuity test with a multimeter is the best bet to find those.  

 

By the way, as a general troubleshooting tip, it's extremely helpful to look at the schematics and board layouts live in Eagle.  There's a free version of Eagle that you can download from the manufacturer's site:

 

https://www.autodesk...e/free-download

Once you have that, grab the schematic and board layout files (.sch and .brd) from my site and open them in Eagle.  On the board layout, you can right-click on any IC pin and select SHOW from the right-click menu to highlight the circuit traces that connect to that pin - that shows you exactly where that pin should connect electrically, which makes it really easy to find the right points to test with your continuity tester.

 

For example, let's look at how you trace flasher 1R (first flasher Red).  On the board diagram, find that pin on JP11.  Right click it and select SHOW.  That lights up the trace to IC5 pin 2.  So you'd test continuity between JP11 1R and IC5 pin 2.  That's the Darlington output that drives the port.  If that looks good, we move on to the input side to that Darlington.  You can figure out the Darlington input/output pairings by looking at the schematic.  We go to the schematic for IC5 pin 2, and you see that's labeled "O1", meaning "output 1".  The corresponding Darlington input is "I1", input 1, which is pin 3 on the same chip.  So we right-click IC5 pin 3 and select SHOW.  That lights up the trace from IC5 pin 3 to OK1 pin 15, so that's the next trace to test with the continuity tester.  If that looks good, the next stage is the input to that optocoupler.  For the optos, the pin with the little arrow pointing outwards on the schematic is the output, and the pin opposite on the schematic is the input - that's the pin on the "bar" side of the internal opto LED on the schematic diagram.  So in this case, OK1 pin 2.  So repeat the process there: right click OK1 pin 2.  That gives us a trace to KC2 pin 28, so continuity-test that.

 

If all of those look good, there are some more continuity tests you can make.  Go back to OK1 and test the other pins that connect to the same square on the schematic - namely pins 1 and 16.  Those are the power connections, so when you SHOW them in Eagle, you'll get a huge network of traces light up, as lots of things need power connections.  For all power/ground connections like this, the only thing you have to test for continuity is the connection all the way back to the main power connector pin.  If that's good, this particular chip is getting power, and that's all we care about at the moment.  

 

If the connections all look good, it's most likely a bad component.  Again, there are really only the two components in this particular path - the Darlington chip and the optocoupler chip.  

 

If your chips are socketed, the easiest test is always to swap chips.  Of the same kind, obviously.  All of the UL2064B chips are interchangeable, so you can swap, say, IC5 and IC6.  Likewise, the PC847 chips can all be swapped around, and the TLC5940 chips can be swapped.  Swapping chips is an especially good test when you know that one chip is working.  In your case it would be harder to interpret the results given that it sounds like most ports aren't working properly, but it might still provide some useful information:  if the exact set of working ports changes when you swap chips, it's likely that the problem is with at least one of the swapped chips.  

 

As with all debugging, do one thing at a time with the chip swaps.  That is, swap a single pair of chips, and test to see what happens.  Doing multiple swaps at once will confuse matters because it will make it more difficult to tell which swap had which effect.



#719 blietzkrieg

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 02:24 PM

mjr - firstly I cannot thank you enough for your comprehensive reply. Your efforts here are nothing short of super-hero like & you have given me hope to a seemingly hopeless situation.

 

For the flasher ports that are working - yes I can confirm that they all seem to work reliably and consistently - they just appear to not be delivering the full power output. i.e. if I bypass the Pinscape Controller & test by touching a ground wire directly, they all light up as they should, with full color & full brightness. RGBs connected to JP8 are exhibiting similar/same symptoms. To me this is indicative of a greater hardware problem - as you've eluded to.

 

I've isolated the PC power supply's ground (was grounded to other PSUs before), but that has not made any observable change. Note: that anything that is connected to pin 4 on JP6 gets triggered at boot (and stays on), so that appears to be the only high powered port that is somewhat functional. All other high power ports seem to be effectively dead for the time being.

 

I have downloaded the Eagle software & schematics and sometime over the weekend, I will endeavour to pull out the Pinscape board(s) and the OEM power supply to perform some more tests in isolation. All the chips have been direct surface mounted (no sockets unfortunately & I don't have a chip extractor tool anyway). I will trace and perform the continuity tests as you've indicated and post back the results.

 

If I can determine that it is indeed the hardware at fault, then hopefully I can make some sort of warranty claim with GGS before attempting a "hack job" of the solder/re-solder that will be required. Lets see.

 

Thanks once again for all your time and effort - it is truly invaluable and very warmly welcomed. I know that I speak for everyone here in saying that.



#720 mjr

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 07:52 PM

blietzkrieg - probably the best bet is to see if you can get the boards replaced.  It sure doesn't sound like it's a setup issue.  If you want to do some more specific testing to make sure it's not a setup issue, you could try this:  

 

- disconnect all of the feedback devices, but leave the USB and power connections in place

- disconnect the power board

- connect something simple and low-power and non-inductive (a #555 incandescent bulb would be perfect) to ONE flasher port

- test just that port, in isolation

- repeat for each flasher port

 

For the "small LED" ports, you can do the same test, but use a regular 20mA LED instead of the #555 bulb.  You can also repeat the test with the power board ports - re-attach the data connection and power connections to the power board and do the test with the #555 bulb with each of those ports.

 

I think that's about as simple and isolated a test as you could do.  It's always possible that there's something wrong with the wiring that's making one port affect other ports, so an isolated port test like this could be worthwhile to rule out anything along those lines.

 

Given that you bought this as an assembled board, I wouldn't expect to be asked to go as far as the continuity tests or chip swaps if I were in your position.  Certainly if you want to go down that road, I can try to help you interpret results as you do more testing, but I think you're right to try to get them replaced from the vendor before going to extraordinary lengths to debug them yourself.