1002 replies to this topic

[The Loafer]

On the issue of releasing a vp physics exe version "officially" before vp10, i can only say the following: from a release perspective, confusion perspective and especially from the fragmentation perspective, it makes sense to wait until the first alpha release. There is no doubt users will download tables meant for vp9 into this new exe, or vice versa and it just won't work and we will be hearing about it in the forums. The FP physics confusion can't be ignored here. As well, having a physics version is asking the authors to update their tables twice; once for physics version, once for vp10.

But... From a purely selfish point of view, these new physics (once the devs feel the physics code portion is final) have ruined it for me when it comes to playing most VP tables with old physics. I really hope enough people can provide great reasons that I can't think of to help justify to the devs a final vp9.9.9 that includes the new physics and maybe with the new rendered ball, is a good idea. They are that damn good.

I think there would be a solution possible to have a vp9.9.9 released with new physics but the problem is it requires dev work for it to work, work that yes, would be better used up elsewhere. Here's some of what I think would be required:

- a different file extension to minimize confusion, like some have mentioned, maybe .VPP tables for physics exe, the standard .vpt for regular vp. Yes, when VP 10 is released, it should use a different file extension too, though I think that has been confirmed

- the ability for the vp exe of both vp9 and the new VP physics to recognize each other so that when one is loaded in the wrong exe, a message pops up indicating "this table is a vp "x" table, please load this table using VP "y" ". This would effectively lesson the confusion at a forum level (I think) but the dev work I suspect is not doable time wise. In saying that, this is potentially useful for vp10 as well.

This is not a voting issue, the devs do this on their own time with no financial reward and they are swamped enough as it is. But it's going to be a tough long wait for sure.

I am sure some will read this post and roll their eyes and say to themselves "standard VP physics are just fine" and for them they are not wrong. I can only say for me, it is what it is.

[Pinbotfan]

It would be quite easy to agree that a physics upgrade should be part of the VP10 release.

 

It would be that is if the physics upgrade was part of a VP10 release.

 

There is no suggestion here. I am only pointing out that we have a physics update without a VP10 release already.

 

Imagine those of up that can run the physics update and see flaws in every aspect. Then imagine how we feel about standard VP physics.

 

I always work with the best I can get my hands on, and if a previous version has nothing to add, I don't want it.

 

In my opinion I have forever been working with beta software when working with VP. And if previous table builds were part of the equation we would still be working with VP8.

 

Having seen the ball and the light model of VP10 WIP, I wonder if I would be willing to go there. I would like to see a interim VP build with VP9.9 and the new physics. As a matter of fact I have that and it is far superior in my opinion. An editor being used based of previous products that came from a previous editor don't make sense to me.

 

Apparently for some, if not many, including me, The physics build beta is the only program used. The question is, is a flood of releases going to reflect this or are people going to use a version that does not have nudging recoil and gimpy flippers until VP10 is finished?

 

The physics mod was not labeled as a test. It is labeled overhaul. It fixed issues and added features and was updated. It's stable, advanced, and simulates pinball play better than its' baby brothers.

 

The thought of a better version in the future is no reason to go back, or not take an available step forward.

 

This is just my opinions. I am willing to use nothing but the physics overhaul beta and not be unhappy about it.

[arngrim]

There is a table released on the other forum, physmod, the non physmod is even not available.
But even if it was i would stick to the physmod.

[fuzzel]

We are in a difficult situation here. I also would like to have the new physics engine implemented in VP. BUT face it it's a lot of work to maintain this build. We did a lot of work for VP10 with some new features and a lot of cleanups. Because you have to modify each table to support the new physics engine and to minimize the confusion with backwards compatibility I vote for a VP10 release rather another VP9.9.9.9.9... The problem is if another feature (rubbers, bulbs or whatever) comes into a VP10 alpha version a lot of people would like to have it sooner than later and yell for another VP9.xyz version just to use that feature.

Perhaps we can make a compromise: We try to add some must-have features to VP10 and stop to implement all of the VP10-ideas and finalize a VP10.0 release. After that we continue to add new stuff to VP10.1 which means that 10.1 could be not backwards compatibile to 10.0.

[arngrim]

that is fine for me, the new physics are not integrated into the vp10 branch as i understood, and what we just would like in vp9 is the finalization of the physmod5 version to do upgrades on old tables with these physics, i don't think someobdy will claim for another feature before vp10, that is just my opinion

[fuzzel]

Well using the physmod5 to update old tables should be considered as a hack and nothing that is officially supported by us. I fear that we see more and more of those hacks and we will face the same confusion like FP. On the other hand releasing beta versions to the community helps us to improve VP

[arngrim]

that is a reason wy we should need an official vp9 physmod, or a vp10 alpha with only physmod, uncle willy is preparing mods of his own tables, and he is not the only one, the confusion would remain without an official version

 

I'm not here to push, i can live without an official version and i'm not confused myself, but i can imagine it's not the case for everybody

[The Loafer]

Either way, no perfect solution but the waiting for an official version that contains phys mod is difficult for some. That is ok, life doesn't suck and the sun rose again today

[Pinbotfan]

The only difference between an official version and an unofficial version, or a hack if you want to call it that, is a label. A label some might and some might not want to use.

 

It's hard and unnecessary to call the best version of VP ever built a hack. The fixes are good, but are they too good for an "official" version of VP?

 

A perfect solution would be to make the Physics Overhaul 5 the first 'official' VP10 release and at this point in time. Changing nothing but giving the extension .VPX. New things added would need to be based on the new physics anyway, and if it is put in later any tests built so far would be in the same boat that scares you about using the 'hack'  

[The Loafer]

We'll I totally get that anything called "vp10" should be backwards compatible within the vp10 subset, but what the devs are saying is that it's pretty guaranteed that some of the changes coming will break what has been done with physexe5. So for that reason I agree you can't call it vp10. Doesn't mean it's not justified to have a "vp9.9.9" but can't be vp10

[Les73gTx]

Man .... for volunteer work and free software there seems to be a big demand on people here ..... there needs to be less pressure and more gratitude imo.
No more VP 9.xyz releases unless it is a fix that has been found for the current build.
I have 100 tables that I play often and my favorites of course and they all work just fine. I have played the physics 5 and the test table and I agree it rocks but I am going to be patient and wait for the VP10 release to be my next big jump.
IMO the VP10 and associated tables need to be a completely separate upgrade and let the table authors make the table the way they want to. If you can't live without the new features then by all means go ahead and fix your tables the way you want them, just please don't pressure the devs to spend time on something that IMO most people can wait for in a VP10 release.
Just to make it clear I am not speaking to anyone directly or indirectly, I am just voicing my opinion in a public forum because that is what it is here for.
Thank you for all the wonderful VP work and development ... I LOVE ALL THE GREAT FREE SOFTWARE.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[The Loafer]

Great post! None of this is meant as pressure, it's jus throwing pros and cons, the final say is all on the devs.

[Pinbotfan]

These suggestions is not pressure. Pressure would be having to find a point in VP10 that is FULLY backward compatible with VP9 which seems to be the objective.

 

It would be a true shame if there is VP9 with all these tables and missing the best features that are available to them right now. AND to have a VP10 that is incompatible with them.

 

It's only settings. All the existing tables that work with VP9.9 could be made to work with anything you call VP9.9 with these features added.

 

It makes more sense to me than VP10 compatible and VP10.1 not.

 

Maybe there should be a 9, 10, and 11.

[unclewilly]

For the record. Vp10 will not be backwards compatible.
The new features including the physics will break all existing tables.

So forget about all these existing tables working with the new features. All the tables will need to be remade or extremely modified.

Just drop it and let the devs do there work.

All theses posts really detract from the development as well as the devs motivation to work on it
The new light object alone will break almost every existing table

[Pinbotfan]

That would settle it then. The 'hack' is the best version of Visual Pinball that will EVER be for the existing tables, Beating out the 'official' version by leaps and bounds.

[Les73gTx]

For the record. Vp10 will not be backwards compatible.
The new features including the physics will break all existing tables.

So forget about all these existing tables working with the new features. All the tables will need to be remade or extremely modified.

Just drop it and let the devs do there work.

All theses posts really detract from the development as well as the devs motivation to work on it
The new light object alone will break almost every existing table

.
.
Thank you UW ... said it better and to the point ... Let the VP10 table building commence. Woo hoo!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[arngrim]

it has nothing to do with pressure at all

 

when vp10 will emerge, there will be some tables that will be converted to vp10 much later than others, or maybe never, due to all the broken compatibility features, while having an official vp9 physmod, it will be easier to benefit from it for all tables.

 

it is just a open discussion, and the future of vp is so exciting for the moment, because you are so good

[mukuste]

Completely agree with you on holding off on this till the initial release of vp10.
There is plenty for people to enjoy in vp990 to tide them over for a few months or so until the initial vp10 and tables are ready for the public.

I've been working on finishing up fire and I'm pretty much down to tuning the physics.
I wanted to post something here to show my praise for your work on this.

[...]

 

This post got a bit lost in all the noise, but I wanted to thank you for the kind words and the good feedback! Also, I know about the primitive collision bugs; they aren't new in this physics mod, as you realized, but after dealing with similar issues with the walls and ramps, I know pretty well how to fix them.

[Practicedummy]

I am waiting for VP 10 with all the new or improved features that come with it. I don't see the need for putting out a VP 9.9 or such. Most of us authors are waiting for VP 10 before starting new or resuming creations of tables. We will have enough on our hands of updating older tables to be compatible with VP 10.

[mukuste]

That would settle it then. The 'hack' is the best version of Visual Pinball that will EVER be for the existing tables, Beating out the 'official' version by leaps and bounds.

 

I'm not sure what you're complaining about here all the time. You say you want a version of VP 9.9 with the new physics; yet, by your own admission, such a thing exists right here in this very thread. You complain that VP10 won't be compatible with old tables and will require adjustments; yet at the same time the exact same thing is true for the physics mod.

 

What would change with an official release? In the end it's still the table authors' responsibility AND sole right to release updates of their tables, and many of them have stated here that they prefer to wait for VP10 to lump all the incompatible changes together in one release. For you, nothing changes, you can still make modded versions of whatever tables you fancy for your own use with the exe from this thread. The only thing that would change is that newcomers or people who find VP in a year would have a jungle of different program and table versions to sort through, which makes it really hard to get into the scene. I gave up on FP after trying for a while, without success, to find and install just the right physics DLL which some table or another demanded for; it's a nightmare. It's really shortsighted to overlook this accessibility issue just so that you can have your official release a few weeks earlier.

 

(Another pet peeve of mine are tables which get released only in a FS version with no desktop version; I think this hampers community growth in a similar way since nobody starts out with a cab off the bat, and some people will never own one for one reason or another. But that's off topic here.)

 

All that said, I'm with Fuzzel on the suggestion to make a 10.0 release relatively soon. We just need to make sure that we get all breaking changes into the initial release so that we can guarantee at least some sort of compatibility for a while. I'll probably post in the VP10 thread, where the atmosphere is less charged, to discuss some sort of strategy.