1002 replies to this topic

[unclewilly]

Have you done any physics work on the primitives?
I know the collision works on stationary primitives, but I was wondering if collision for moving primitives will be implemented.
I have 2 test tables that I can use for this. Mb and fire

[mukuste]

So on flipper physics, whats the max friction value that's accepted? I put in 300 and I don't see any real difference from 0.8.  I was thinking that more friction might help backhand power a bit.

 

It doesn't change the power, only the angle. Even then, anything higher than 1 is probably pointless because once the ball isn't sliding on the flipper anymore, increasing it even more won't have any further effect.

 

Just to give you an idea of some real-life friction coefficients (scroll down to the table): http://www.engineeri...ents-d_778.html

 

 

more than happy to test and offer insight...Jpop

 

Would be happy to hear what you think! Easiest way to get started is to download the latest physmod5.exe as well as the CFTBL test table, both linked from the first post in this thread, and try that.

 

 

Have you done any physics work on the primitives?
I know the collision works on stationary primitives, but I was wondering if collision for moving primitives will be implemented.
I have 2 test tables that I can use for this. Mb and fire

 

Not yet, no. It's on the list. Main problem here is that the movement model for primitives has to change if you want realistic collisions with moving primitives. Just setting the rotation angles won't work, you actually have to tell it the velocity. I think some motor/damping scheme would work best for this. I guess the ROM would send a motor on/off signal for these types of things? What kinds of moving objects would you have on these two tables?

Edited by mukuste, 19 May 2014 - 06:56 PM.

[unclewilly]

I have moving targets, the drac ulna toy on mb.
Fire has three raising and lowering ramps

[BigBoss]

 

So on flipper physics, whats the max friction value that's accepted? I put in 300 and I don't see any real difference from 0.8.  I was thinking that more friction might help backhand power a bit.

 

It doesn't change the power, only the angle. Even then, anything higher than 1 is probably pointless because once the ball isn't sliding on the flipper anymore, increasing it even more won't have any further effect.

 

 

 

Thank you for explaining this. I was actually hoping it might change the angle slightly. There seems to be more power the further out you shoot the ball. If friction changed the angle, you might get power at an outward degree at a slightly inward degree (where in is closer to the pivot point and out is closer to the flipper edge).  Was kind of a long shot. It really feels like we need to be able to get a little more power on the backhand shots when comparing to real flippers. And if angles were slightly more inward across the board, it would help the perceived problem of lag. I would be curious to try a hack where say every flipper shot projected 1 degree more inward than it does not across the board. I have VP compiling now as of a couple hours ago. But I'm not sure if such a thing is easy to test out (probably not).

Edited by BigBoss, 19 May 2014 - 09:00 PM.

[mukuste]

That's just the old oblique correction all over again... I was really hoping we could do without that because pretty much everyone hated it.

 

Physically, it's pretty clear why shots off the tip should be stronger than closer to the base, the flipper just moves much faster there. So I'm not surprised by that. That said, maybe there's still some physical reason, or just some way to tweak the parameters, to improve the backhands. Actually I think they work pretty well on the CFTBL table, for instance, but what do I know...

 

About the lag: have you tried already to control the flippers directly rather than going through VPM? I'm really curious if it helps. Basically there are three possible sources of lag I could imagine: VP itself, VPM itself, and the communication between the two (which works via timers and could certainly be improved). If we can determine which one it is, we're on the right track.

[mukuste]

Actually, here's something interesting. This is assuming you are talking about a backhand where the ball is rolling along the flipper, not hitting the ball mid-air.

 

I went back to my derivations (https://bitbucket.or...ipperHitContact) and plotted some relative strength curves for different flipper/ball mass relations. On the x axis is the location along the flipper (0=base, 0.10=tip), and on the y axis is the shot velocity.

 

This is with a flipper mass of 2 (relative to the ball):

 

 FlipperContact_Mass_2.png   7.19KB   22 downloads

 

With a flipper mass of 1.25:

 

 FlipperContact_Mass_1.25.png   7.38KB   21 downloads

 

And with 0.8:

 

 FlipperContact_Mass_0.8.png   7.33KB   19 downloads

 

So, when you make the flipper lighter, backhands off the middle of the flipper actually get somewhat stronger relative to the shots off the tip. I don't know if this is practical, but it's something to play around with at the least.

[slashbot]

BB: I can't run that table at all, no matter which version... I can load it, but when I hit Play, it flashes briefly and then quits the player back to the editor. I've never seen that before, have to figure out what's going on...

I had the same problem with bigboss tables, it was fixed by importing a global physicsset into the editor
After import vp wont quit after loading or go back to the editor.
Good luck

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Edited by slashbot, 19 May 2014 - 09:54 PM.

[mukuste]

@Uncle Willy: I had a prolonged play session on Creature tonight -- it's great! I noticed the ball would sometimes drop off the ramp which leads to the whirlpool (or whatever that thing is), Ramp1183. I had a look and it has a physical Right Wall of height 62, but Left Wall is at 0. I guess that's not how it should be?

[dboyrecords]

This may be from left of left field, but I've been recently seeking out and playing real pins in town and the thing that has been kinda surprising is how much power and force real flippers have and how heavy an impact the ball has on the flipper (that little give the flipper has when catching a ball). That, to me, is where it's still not quite the same...

That said, I LOVE where this is going and it plays really great! Thanks hope I'm not offending anyone!!!

[BigBoss]

The lag is pretty hard to notice and you adjust to it fast. Its noticable after playing the same game on a real pin then jumping into VP. It may not even be lag. Just that if you try to make the same shot, the angles are all off and you have an acclimation period. It feels like lag at first. A few minutes in and you stop noticing it. So people without real games may not notice.

I also disliked oblique. I was thinking of more for a test not as a permanent feature. If all angles were slightly inward more, the perceived lag would be less. I could be wrong though and it may play way different. Oblique felt like it did something different. It made everything more towards the center. It did not feel like it evenly changed angles. Maybe that's because the feel of the old flippers was just so off, though. I was thinking a global angle adjust could feel similar to as if you hit the flipper a bit sooner and eliminate some perceived lag. My goal would be to swap actively between VP and real game and not have any acclimation. Pinball fx2 also feels a lot snappier to me.

As for backhands, I mean hold the ball cradled on the flipper. Then aim for the ramp on a backhand. I'll try to find a good table for it. On real machines, you get weaker shots off a backhand. But not quite as weak as VP flippers feel. Interesting about the mass setting. I've been using 1. I'll try .5 and reduce strength and see.

Edited by BigBoss, 20 May 2014 - 01:45 AM.

[ckovanda]

Does anyone know how to fix the mousehole on Mousin' Around?  the ball will start to round the corner, but all ways rolls back out.

[Traok3]

Hopefully this is okay to post here.... So downloaded the latest build of the update and realizing something has went terribly haywire with the lights.... I thought I read a post of someone else having this issue and the fix but cannot find it...

 

So just to elaborate..

 

1) Any and all lights on the table disappear and reappear...

      For instance the domes on the test table CFTBL  are gone all I see is the white bases.. and then they will flash 

2) The ball flashes on and off... Like it is a giant strobe ball.. 

 

 

Any thoughts ? Sorry that this is not helping with the war  

 

 

Everything is great in the latest v9.latest (LOL)p rev 3 

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

Traok

Edited by Traok3, 20 May 2014 - 09:51 PM.

[mukuste]

It sounds like you have MSAA enabled, perhaps from the Nvidia control panel. Also check your video preferences in VP, just to be sure, although there is no MSAA setting there anymore.

[Traok3]

MSAA ? Cannot locate this in the NVIDIA Panel ?

 

I set the frame limiter to 1 and it looks like the lights are working now... But the ball is still flashing .

 

Thanks for the quick reply.. Any other thoughts ?

 

**** Cant explain it.... Messed with the NVIDIA settings... Undid it .. restarted VP.. All is well?

 

Thanks

Edited by Traok3, 20 May 2014 - 10:18 PM.

[jpop]

will all this run under Windows 8? Tried to install and it's looking for "FreeImage.dll". Sorry I am a mac guy but will give it a shot. Jpop

[gtxjoe]

I don't have Windows 8, but Freeimage.dll should be in same folder as vPinball.exe. It's included in the VP 9.9.0 and VP 9.2.1 downloads

Edited by gtxjoe, 20 May 2014 - 11:48 PM.

[Traok3]

Tested melons CFTBL again after updatong to physmod5.
Now the CFTBL test table plays normal and the earlier stuck ball in the outer loop is fixed.
The general feeling playing physmod5 is AMAZING !
The overall description is controll. You can make the shots you see in your mind. You just work the flippers and it happens! Being the newbee I am, I imediately made a new high score. I think a trippled my earlier score right of the bat.
Physmod5 is also the smoothest version I have tried.
This is really prommising for the future of VP!
Thanks for all your efforts!

 

So I was all jazzed from finally getting this to work... And doing everything that was said above(High Scores, hitting shots I needed to make.. etc) ... Heck I even learned to pass the ball WOW I can pass it almost at will..

 

and I come up to ask a few more dumb questions and see lots of posts like this .... And I wonder.... is it suppose to be like this ?

 

My pinball time was brief and not played with any thought until now... I get the fact that this game has always been ultimately about control .. but should I be making high scores ? I guess the question is.. am I having more fun than yesterday or last week ? 

 

FTR not complaining as I keep trying to get CV to work no luck.. keep getting a controller error message.The latest Twighlight Zone crashes VP or freezes it if I hit the right loop to the diverter gate ?  And Champion Pup has major issues if you hit the kickers or try and jump rope.  I CANT WAIT TO PLAY MORE.. but I think there were a few questions in there ...

 

Thoughts ? 

 

Traok

 

( Really need to add nudge capability to my cab now)

 

THANKS GUYS !

[JavaJack]

And Champion Pup has major issues

Pup? Sounds like a great idea for a table

[mukuste]

Since there are many requests for actual playfield holes, I was curious to see how the new physics engine would deal with this case. I faked a playfield hole using a wall over the playfield; see the attachment below. Of course I don't suggest that holes be made in this way, it's only a test.

 

The result is quite encouraging already. The ball gets deflected by the hole a bit by default; if you move the kicker a bit to the right or just nudge at the right time, the ball drops into the hole. I'm convinced that a more beveled edge of the hole, like you'd have in a saucer, would create even more realistic behavior.

Attached Files

•  drophole-physmod5.vpt   108KB   31 downloads

[boiydiego]

glad that you take it into count looking into it because my cab is in need of a bingotable it takes the cabinet for me to the next level , the bezel on the hole maybe can make the ball swirl out of the hole that is what iam looking for now it is only being sucked in the hole to fast for being good for greating a good bingo table , will you finetune and implement it into vp muskuste the bingoholes  ?

Edited by boiydiego, 23 May 2014 - 11:45 PM.